Why did the Army ban Dragon Skin armor before even testing it?

This is interesting proof for all active Military to show what a Soldiers life is worth., Dragon Skin Works and the US Military will not let you use it., This shows what our government truly cares about.

Dragon skin outperforms standard Army issue bullet poof vest and is in fact vastly superior.



the guy presenting the video claims to be putting out more info on other matters shortly
keep an eye out billyjack.com...

And here's another one with all kinds of guns and ammo being used in live testing of the armor with testimonies from soldiers, police etc.



[edit on 23-9-2009 by warrenb]

The Army says it failed extensive tests and the manufacture says it passes all tests.

It all depends on who you believe is telling the truth. Both have reasons to lie and both have reasons to tell the truth.

Ds refused to submit the armor for the full range of tests
and it did fail specific test, in preliminary testing.

With contracts like that, its not about which is the better product, its about which company gives a bigger kickback to the general who gets to make the selection. Been that way for years. It was a huge scam in Vietnam. You should look up how many of the guys running that war held massive stock in Bell Helicopter.

reply to post by jd140


the news report did an independent test that backed up the manufacturers and clients claims that it saves more lives.

Dragon Skin did not outperform. It did not meet specifications. That is why it was rejected.

Test results
- Total number of vests tested: 8
- Total number of vests failed: 4
- Total number of penetrations: 13 of 48

www.professionalsoldiers.com...

[edit on 9/22/2009 by Phage]

Maybe the army just already have something better..

reply to post by Phage


Well, that kind of summed it up.

Any other data that counters this?

reply to post by warrenb


Independant tests are fine and all, but the Army has their own testing.

I'm sure, like with the ACU's, they tested them in theater under real world conditions and found them wanting.

Take for instance about 6 or so years ago when we converted to the ACU's. Those in theater got the uniforms first. The boots did horribly and were scapped for a while until a new boot could be made and tested. Now we have the ones that are used today, which are great.

Originally posted by defcon5
With contracts like that, its not about which is the better product, its about which company gives a bigger kickback to the general who gets to make the selection. Been that way for years. It was a huge scam in Vietnam. You should look up how many of the guys running that war held massive stock in Bell Helicopter.

You should check out how many congressmen and senators own stock in companies that make hundreds of billions of dollars on the Iraq and Afghanistan fiascos. Political graft and corruption is far worse now than it ever was in 'Nam times.

reply to post by groingrinder

Oh believe me, I know that’s true. I was just using Vietnam as an example:

Suite 8F
The assassination of John F. Kennedy brought an end to this proposal to bring an end to the oil depletion allowance. The Suite 8F Group also did very well out of the escalation of the Vietnam War. They formed a new company called RMK-BRJ to obtain these contracts. This included Halliburton who took over Brown & Root in 1962. These contracts included building jet runways, dredging channels for ships, hospitals, prisons, communications facilities, and building American bases from Da Nang to Saigon. RMK-BRJ did 97% of the construction work in Vietnam. The other 3% went to local Vietnamese contractors. Between 1965 and 1972 Brown & Root (Halliburton) alone obtained revenues of $380 million from its work in Vietnam.
Senator Abraham Ribicoff of Connecticut attempted to expose this scandal. He claimed that millions was being paid in kickbacks. An investigation by the General Accounting Office discovered that by 1967 RMK-BRJ had “lost” $120 million. However, GAO never managed to identify the people obtaining these kickbacks.
Another company associated with the Suite 8F Group also did well out of the Vietnam War. Bell Helicopter Corporation began producing the UH-1. It could climb 2,000 feet per minute and could fly at 125 miles per hour for about three hours. It could carry nine fully equipped soldiers and a crew of four. By 1969 Bell Helicopter Corporation was selling nearly $600 million worth of helicopters to the United States Military. According to Robert Bryce: "Vietnam made Bell Helicopters".

I have heard similar stories from numerous vets about how they would take a hill, have the contractors build a firebase, a week later abandon it to the enemy, then have to retake the hill again. All so the contractors could keep building new firebases all the time. How they would send choppers into hot firefights so they would have to be replaced, and I even spoke with one man who’s job was to remove all the oil platforms from the area when the US abandoned the war. Even though I mentioned generals, the corruption goes all the way up the ladder. I am sure its worse today then it ever was in the past…

Originally posted by Phage
Dragon Skin did not outperform. It did not meet specifications. That is why it was rejected.

Test results
- Total number of vests tested: 8
- Total number of vests failed: 4
- Total number of penetrations: 13 of 48

www.professionalsoldiers.com...

[edit on 9/22/2009 by Phage]

Interesting considering that the body armor that was given for those tests appeared on Ebay for sale. There were even serial numbers that prove the 2 posted for sale were part of those given with a bunch for certification testing. The testing which the armor supposedly failed.

PEO Soldier has accounted for all the test articles they purchased from Pinnacle prior to the 2006 test. There are no problems with the chain of custody for any test articles from that test. This is the second "posting" on eBay in the past few weeks.

This particular item (with the associated pictures mentioned below) has a date of manufacture of June 2006 printed on the label. It is interesting to us that the date of manufacture for this "test" article is after the completion of the test.

But, for Tolleson a blatant lie by the Army is to be accepted as gospel truth, regardless of contradictory evidence such as photographs, invoices, etc. (The information from Pinnacle Armor was available for Tolleson, but DefenseWatch has not confirmed that he reviewed the information.) (See this DefenseWatch article for a previous description of Tolleson’s being little more than a hand puppet for the Army acquisition mafia. 04-11-2006 [url=http://is.gd/3AYBM]HASC Staffers’ Mission — Damn the Lies, Kill Dragon Skin at All Costs[/ur])

www.defensereview.com...



A little more research than a quick Google...mkay Phage

[edit on 23-9-2009 by warrenb]

reply to post by warrenb

I fail to see what the theft of government property has to do with testing carried out by a third party. This isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last. It's called SNAFU. Do you think this somehow invalidates the tests? Did you read the pdf?


[edit on 9/22/2009 by Phage]

reply to post by warrenb


Actually it has been tested several times with a lot of success, but the administration in the Armed Forces have gone so far as to claim the tests showed the armor is not up to our Armed Forces standards but this is not true since dragon armor surpases the protection, not to mention the mobility that the present body armor our Armed Forces use.

I can give some first hand data on this story, God knows there's a ton of hype and point counter point stories floating around.

There were problems with the initial round of testing and the armor was not submitted for the full range of testing. According to the person who conducts the acceptance testing for armor for the DOD the short story is that DS was not submitted for the full range of testing, failed certain key tests and that various excuses were given.

The company managed to get some hype in the press and claims of political favoritism and so on by the military were blamed and soon relatives of soldiers were paying a lot of money to send DS to troops who weren't allowed to wear it and for the most part didn't want to wear.

In the years since then, anytime this subject comes up for discussion online someone from the company shows up and starts online flame wars with cops and soldiers who know first hand what gear works and what doesn't. The reputation of the product and the company behind it have suffered a great deal as a result. The end result of these flame wars usually involves someone asking the company to submit the product for independent testing which they refuse to do. They seem to want all testing to be at their facility and to be conducted according to their protocols.

Personally, I only buy L4 armor from a certain place and only buy armor which meets or exceeds milspec. In no way do I feel less protected without DS - if it meets the spec and is maintained correctly it will stop the type of rounds it's made to. Until the nano composite "HALO" body armor comes out in 2014 there's really not much out there that's better. (For anything less than 7.62+ and armor piercing steel plate will stop rounds just fine for less money but a lot more weight). That said the current milspec BA is ceramic and composite - just like the supposed "better" stuff.

reply to post by italkyoulisten


either that or -cough-MONEY-cough-....

I think the most concise description of the DS issues is thus:

Sometimes it works great and is able to do everything it claims
-but-
the product has serious manufacturing issues which lead me to conclude the ability of it to perform is pretty much like playing the lotto with slightly better odds. They've had tons of issues with the small plates (discs) coming dislodged / de-laminating which leaves gaps in the protection and keeps it from stopping rounds.

It failed tests for the Army and Air Force yet the CIA has issued it (according to wikipedia).

The product gained NIJ level 3 certification but lost it and has been unable to regain said certification. Pinnacle is suing the NIJ testing body.

The product has never passed level 4 testing for a certification body. The last time they tried to pass military testing the company wanted the vests shot immediately, the military wanted to wait two weeks and the company claimed this was to give the military time to tamper with them. The most likely explanation I've been given by a body armor testing scientist is that Pinnacle wanted the vests shot before the discs could de-laminate. Basically, every story seems to lead to the conclusion that they cannot maintain a standard of production which will result in a product that meets the protection level promised.

Rather than fixing these issues the company has sued the NIJ and the military (they lost the court case over the military testing, by the way).

Even if the product started beating every test by a mile tomorrow the reputation of the company is beyond salvage with the soldiers, contractors and cops. The CEO of Pinnacle has created a PR nightmare via the forum flame wars and certain accusations which have been made against anyone who dares to say anything negative about Dragon Skin.

While I don't doubt for a second there is still corruption in the procurement system the process has changed and new product trials for the military involve lengthy, hands on testing by day to day soldiers. The average grunt has a lot more influence on this process now than they did in the past. They also have very long memories and very strong opinions when it comes to gear. If you give a soldier or cop a bad product and fail to fix it the reputation of your company will be destroyed and no one will buy from you. The level of gear worship and discussion in those communities is amazing. The govt does not always make the best choice on gear and the manufacturers don't always maintain standards but one way or another the troops get the gear they feel is best, especially when it comes to life support and weapons.

Pinnacle has fought a really hard fight on this but you have to ask if all that effort might have been a better investment spent on improving the product instead of trying to claim it's perfect when it's obvious it is not.

I got a better idea - how about we get our troops into a place where
they won't get shot at - like stateside maybe?

There are so many ways you can set up to tests, particularly if you
want them to fail. Substituting bullets would be very easy in these
tests, perhaps swapping AP for JHP and maybe upping the loads as
well.

It's my conviction that nobody gets into the Pentagon cash cow
programs without paying into the system. Their procurement
department has a long history of turning down superior products
based on political considerations.