An Intro To Anarchism

I can't ever see anarchism working on a mass scale simply because there is no money in it!!

Unless of course, one has been stashing money in the couch which is now on the roof!

(Take such sentiment for whatever it is worth).

That mentality is one of the main reasons anarchism will never work, most people cant imagine a world without money, a world of self sustainability.

Also the majority of people for some reason realy need someone to tell them what to do (and think), and feel that if they make a mistake there will always be someone to help fix it for them (why do you think religion is so popular? Because people like having a universal big brother looking out for them).

IMO the most we can hope for is groups of anarchists coming together and establishing their own communities, using permaculture techniques and such to create a self sufficient community that does not rely on the things that our current society has become relient on.

reply to post by sicklecell

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On that note Trash Island I did email the folks in the non profit that are trying assess and deal with the GPGP but to date they have not emailed me back...

I have also thought about the possibility of hooking the Ghost fleet together along with some barges of dirt.... or all anarchs are welcome to my patch of 11 acres in MO.

I have thought about this at length... how to build the community...like stateless from the book "Distress" by Greg Egan... Wonderful idea.. but how does one implement it... I figer either trash island or the ghost fleet... My area in MO is still not a stateless place but part of the American Federal Empire...

reply to post by sicklecell

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Let us discuss this money some of you people hate.

In the world, some people/regions/countries are better at making certain products than others. Could be due to climate, culture, whatever.

So lets say...

Group A makes grapes
Group B makes oranges
Group C makes pears
Group D makes lemons

What if group A wants Oranges, group B wants pears, Group C wants lemons, and group D wants grapes?

Well, you can trade and trade again, or you can eliminate the middle man. We do this with money. Money is a bartering system. We offer our skills for money, which in return can be used to buy skills and goods.

MONEY IS GOOD.

Now, we can go into the abuse of money, but money itself is a bartering item.

I believe some of you are getting anarchism and a Utopia mixed up. In anarchism, it is everyone for themselves. There is nothing to prevent someone else from stealing your items or even killing you.

So where is your safety? Are you going to make packs with people? How would you enforce these packs? What if the opportunity to abuse you came up - I am sure someone would do so.

The list goes on and on. The objective is to find a system that returns the highest level of satisfaction. While anarchism might win in a few categories, on the whole scale, it would be horrible.

Research it before you star accusing. Anarchism is the belief that society can work just as well without leaders. It's a form of direct democracy, without a middleman. It's not always without money I believe in a system that can use money.

Anarchy is not chaos. Anarchy goes back to Latin, meaning No (an) Master/Rulers (Archy). Hierarchy has Archy in it to, and Archy means the same in it.

reply to post by FritosBBQTwist

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I dissagree with most of what you said.. if not all.


All a person needs is several different types of fruit and veggies which can be grown pretty much anywhere with the use of green houses, and edible animals, which im sure are also available in all regions, countries.


If it is JUST a bartering system why do people pursue it over everything else?
Money is a status symbol not just a tool for trade, those with more of it are supposedly 'better' then those with less.


Im not.


What is to prevent that now? The police? What a joke.. Laws? They are a deterent but looking at the news reports (and history of our society) That deterrent doesnt work very well.


Uh..packs.. Yea i suppose, for lack of a better word.


Yes there are violent people in the world, but there are many more non-violent people who have something worth protecting.
If someone did try and 'abuse' a community, or infringe on the rights or happiness of it, they would be dealt with swiftly and mercilessly. (or the community would be wiped out by the 'abusers' which is also fine since this is nature, we are animals and in nature animals often die)


No it isnt.

reply to post by sicklecell

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So your idea of a better life style is to have farm animals and your farm? What happens if your livestock gets sick and dies? What happens when there is some sort of infection in your crop and you lose all of it? Or bad weather?

Are you going to take your car somewhere? Who is going to build it? What roads are you going to drive on to get your food? Get rid of your internet while you are at it.

It is ironic that some of you preach of a farming life style, but I would be willing to make a bet that you live FAR from it, and are not willing to even try it.

Lets discuss money again. People want it more than everything else because it IS the ultimate bartering item. If you have 10 tomatoes, or 5 dollars, your selection is much wider with the 5 dollars. Use any items and any factor you want. Money allows people to specialize in certain fields. You actually think these rocket scientist are producing anything that actually helps them "live"? No. They get paid money for their immense skills, which can then buy their needs and wants.

What is to prevent crime now? The systematic punishment that comes with it? The amount of deterrents? You want to rob a bank? Well, better watch out, your one hair might get traced back to you.

So yes. Cops, forensics, jail, etc, are deterrents. You are also right that they do not stop all criminals. But just imagine if we had almost ZERO deterrents? Would crime go down?

It has been awhile since I read the book "The Lord of the Flies", but this is what I picture when I think of anarchism. Have fun.

reply to post by FritosBBQTwist

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And your idea of a great life is the way it is currently?

I assume your talking about a completely anarchistic society, if your crops die or animals get sick you can hopefully rely on your surrounding community to give you a helping hand, if not i suppose you'll go hungry and die.

Cars havnt been around for ever, didnt we get along fine before they were around spewing toxic fumes into the atmosphere?
BTW i own a car but it doesnt even run, i ride a bike or walk.
And i would gladly get rid of the internet if i lived a farming lifestyle, i only got a computer about 6months ago because my girlfriends father bought it for us, we have the internet, i enjoy the access to information so i use it. simple.
Dont make the assumption that im someone who cant live without it.

Me and my girlfriend are saving every dollar we can so we can one day purchase a property and get out of this current lifestyle.

In western society money is pretty much the only bartering item, have you ever tried buying milk from the supermarket with 10 tomatoes, dont think it would work.

And thats beside the point, if it is JUST a bartering item why do people even when they have everything they need still pursue it, still want more of it, even if they dont need it?

I never said they werent deterrents, i said they werent very good ones since crime is still incredibly widespread, yes they may deter trouble makers but it will never deter someone desperate, and jail is definately NOT a deterrent for a career criminal.

Good for you.

reply to post by sicklecell

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Well, if you are truly going to adapt to this life style, then I can not argue with you.

It is people who talk and do nothing about it that I am against - not your actual way of thinking.

While our society has problems, I personally see it much more adaptable to me than the style you mention. I hear my parents wishing we could get out of our debt-based society as well, you are not alone.

Debt means where controlled, if your in debt, the credit card companies can control you, because they can take away your plan, or increase your rates and fees if you don't comply. I don't agree with credit cards.

reply to post by Phlynx

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Yeah, but who charges the credit cards? Who should know how much money they have?

Yes, it is "relative" to giving a child a loaded gun, in the fact that the user doesn't truly know the consequences of what they are doing, but yeah. Credit cards are bad...we can either fight them by two options

1) Everyone charging them up and letting the country go to hell (already doing this!)

2) End our dependence on credit the best we can. That means...save.

I know credit cards are your choice, but its not your choice when interest rates are jacked up to 20%

reply to post by Phlynx

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That is true. That is bad and very wrong like I said. There were wrong doings on both sides. The person for charging and not being able to pay, and the company for hiking the rates. It is understandable that you will fight for the consumer side of things since more than likely, you are a consumer and not a producer, but the goal is to view it from BOTH sides.

I will also reiterate myself and say that if you are truly for anarchism, I am waiting for the day you make the smallest attempt to start living the life style that will come with it. First off, chop away your internet.

It seems like the OP is suggesting anarcho-capitalism since corporations would still be a part of your ideal society. However if this is the case, corporations would have no government regulations so that corporations could merge at will, becoming exponentially more powerful transnational mega corporate empires with tyrannical power. In anarcho-capitalism corporations would effectivley replace the state as all federal services such as fire and police departments would be privatized. Correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to be the only rational way for anarchism to pan out if corporations are involved. I have a few friends who are anarcho-syndacalists who beleive that workers should take over firms. Here corporations would still exist but would be under direct control of the people. There are many different schools of thought within anarchism. It is too broad of a term to throw around by itself as a solution. I think you need to critically think about the specifics before you make an argument for anarchism.

reply to post by The Transhumanist

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Well Transhumanist I would ask you just what kind of law do the current multi national corporations obey? Look at GE. You speak of the corps becoming tyrannical with power but how is that not already the case today?

And even should the corporation privatize social services like Police, Fire, and EMS we would still have the volunteers that donate their own time and experience for these services.

Still in an anarchist society their may be more corporate justice. Companies that attempt to make a profit from human suffering such as Haliburton or Enron might think twice about the corporate strategies to make a dollar when they no longer have the judicial system on their pay rolls. On the other hand the corporation is generally an enemy of anarchy...Chiefly because their one reason for existence is to make the most money and in a society with no government regulated value of currency, the objective of making the most money may not be possible for them...

But who knows... Its all theory for another ten generations anyways.

I couldn't agree with you more that corporations already have tyrannical power and I do not deny that they have judges and representatives in their pockets. A legal system by the majority might make a dent in corporate power and their are many volunteers that help our system function but I still hold that corporations would largely benefit in terms of power and profit in an anarcho-capitalistic society. Anarcho-syndaclists aren't quite clear on wether corporations would be owned by all or just the workers of that corporation so there could potentially be a rise in corporate power and profit in that political system as well.
I will probably be called out for NWO propaganda at the mere mention of this, but has anyone here considered a technocracy based around a resource based economy such as the one proposed by the Venus Project? I am currently taking a political philosophy class in college and In Robert Paul Wolff's In Defense of Anarchism, he suggests that it is sometimes necessary to submit your autonomy to someone such as a physician because they no more than you. You certainly would take the opinion of your physician over the oppinion of the masses when it comes to your health and I believe the same argument can be applied to a government by technical experts.

A good thread.

If you take a quick look at this link you will see people still have ignorant or ill-informed notions of anarchists being masked hooligans, instead of intelligent , free spirited people.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I suggest the ATS member Stevegmu takes a close look at this thread, in fact i'm going to u2u him and suggest he reads this thread.

S+F

Thanks. I am a pacifist, I don't believe in killing or war, even if it is for a cause.

anarchism is terrible and i bet u didnt give enough thought into it.

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[edit on 7/10/2009 by Mirthful Me]

Can you elaborate on the 'terrible' parts of anarchy?

Or are you just repeating things that people want you to think?