Should christians celebrate holidays?

Let me know what you think and why.



[edit on 22-9-2009 by SimpleKnowledge]

reply to post by SimpleKnowledge
I decided not to after reading this:

Occult Holidays and Sabbats

God has laid out his feasts in scripture. I'm going to learn about them and celebrate them.

That's right...us Pagans are some evil folk. It's strange because in all the sabbats I have celebrated not a single person died...

and as for the orgies around Valentines day...well some people may have done so way back when but it doesn't represent us now...huh...that sound familiar

and FYI...Satanists are not Pagans

-Kyo

[edit on 22-9-2009 by KyoZero]

reply to post by KyoZero
You are a Christian??

And the exception doesn't define the rule, that's a logical fallacy.

1. Just because you have never witnessed it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

2. Just because it's rare today doesn't mean the origin of the holiday wasn't greatly different.

FYI: all satanists are pagans but not all pagans are satanists.

ah yes...using the broad stroke there....see when people read that they will see the word satanists...yet they also now think us Pagans do the same...

And just because a person wrote it doesn't make it true

your Christian history is pretty darn spotty as well

meanwhile today these sacrifices are rare yet pedophilia runs rampant in the Catholic church

-Kyo

[edit on 22-9-2009 by KyoZero]

reply to post by KyoZero
Hey you won't get an argument from me that Catholicism is messed up.

And all holidays commemorate, or celebrate something from this past, usually it;s distant past, on rare occasions it's not so distant.

These holidays are different toda for the vast majority, let's say 99% for arguments sake, but their beginnings and founders had entiredly different ideas when they picked those days to celebrate.

I MYSELF do not support them when I learned this. And that's my choice.

And that is totally fine...just seems like people want to vilify us Pagans for some ancient practices when the bible and it's words have driven people to war and I would imagine killed a hell of alot more people than Pagans have.

Frankly...it's an endless battle and we are but mortals...though these mortals will continue to argue who is right and who is wrong

-shrugs-

-Kyo

Holidays with known pagan backgrounds should be considered "off-limits" to all christians yet 99% of all christians partake in these pagan celebrations. A list of known "pagan" holidays are as follows:

Valentines Day
Easter
St. Patricks Day
Halloween
Christmas


Holidays that have no religious meaning to them and did not originate in paganism are fine. A list includes:

New Years (observance, not celebration of it)
Independence Day
April Fools Day
Thanksgiving (can be national or religious)
Labor, Memorial, Veterans, Presidents, MLK, etc. Days.

The story behind the "major" christian holidays of Easter and Christmas are very disturbing. Easter is the "supposed" day Jesus resurrected from His tomb yet scripture clearly proves that to be false. For a broader explanation, visit my short thread on the year Jesus was crucified... (also verified by scripture as the thread will prove).

Christ's crucifixion 31 or 33 CE?
www.belowtopsecret.com...

Christmas is the supposed day of Christ's birth yet scripture proves this to be false too. Jesus was born around the time of the feast of Tabernacles... probably durring the feast of Trumpets in late summer/early fall. He never celebrated His birth. The first century church never celebrated His birth. It wasn't until centuries later that the Catholics decided to pull more pagans into christianity so they created a christian form of the pagan "Saturnalia" as well as other pagan winter solstice customs.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SimpleKnowledge

 

I decided not to after reading this:

Occult Holidays and Sabbats

God has laid out his feasts in scripture. I'm going to learn about them and celebrate them.

Wow, that is horribly misinformed. Aside from the obvious stereotypes of all pagans as satanist, baby-eating Illuminati running a massive conspiracy against Christianity and the forces of good, I'm gonna tackle a few particularly egregious or silly factual or logical errors I found:

" Most ancient pagans knew the tree represented Nimrod reincarnated into Tammuz! Pagans also looked upon the tree as a phallic symbol."

Nimrod is a biblical figure, and Tammuz is a Babylonian one; to suggest that 'most ancient pagans' even recognize those names is patently ridiculous, especially when you start moving into the Americas.


" The mythical attributes and powers ascribed to Santa are eerily close to those possessed by Jesus Christ. "

...Er, what? I honestly can't think of how the two relate; Santa has a workshop of elves at the north pole, and rides a sled pulled by flying reindeer around the world in one night going down people's chimneys to hand out presents to children(and eat cookies). He's fat and jolly, two things I've never seen Jesus depicted as.

"Green and Red are the traditional colors of the season, as they are the traditional pagan colors of winter"

This is as good a spot as any to put in the required "pagans are not all the same spiel," and I'll just add in that I've never even HEARD of 'traditional...colors of winter.'

"
Some of the very important historic dates that were staged according to this blood sacrifice day are:"

Selective thinking at it's finest and most arbitrary. September 11th is conveniently ignored, yet here's some equally horrible things that happened on that day aside from the obvious 9/11(cutting/pasting from Wiki, fyi):

1857 – The Mountain Meadows Massacre: Mormon settlers and Paiutes massacre 120 pioneers at Mountain Meadows, Utah.
1943 – World War II: Start of the liquidation of the Ghettos in Minsk and Lida by the Nazis.
1944 – World War II: RAF bombing raid on Darmstadt and the following firestorm kill 11,500.
1968 – Air France Flight 1611 crashes off Nice, France, killing 89 passengers and 6 crew.
1970 – The Ford Pinto is introduced.


"This Satanic night is dedicated to the Celtic Lord of the Dead, also symbolized by the Horned-god and the Stag-god."

First of all "Celtic" denotes a VAST area of land and cultures, so there would be multiple 'lords of the dead.' Secondly, from what we know Celtic deities weren't nearly as strictly defined as the Greek/Roman deities; so while some gods, may have had domain over the land of the dead or been a psychopomp, he couldn't really be called "lord of the dead" in the same way Hel or Hades could have been. In short, it's a bit of an oversimplification and hyperbole(somewhat like describing Jesus as "King of Sinners").


"In Ireland on October 31, peasants went from house to house to receive offerings to their Druid god, Muck Olla. This procession stopped at each house to tell the farmer his prosperity was due to the benevolence of Muck Olla ... or else misfortune might befall the farmer and his crops. Few farmers risked any such displeasure of the pagan deity, so the procession returned home with eggs, butter, potatoes, and in some cases, coins ... To the Irish farmers this was no joke; they greatly feared the Celtic god might destroy their homes and barns ... Trick or treat is part of this pagan heritage"

There's no such god as "Muck Olla." Period. Throwing the rest of this info into even more questionable territory when I read that the origin of Trick or Treating is in "souling"(essentially ritualized begging).



Whew, that's good enough. Now, with all that said, I can completely see why Christians wouldn't want to celebrate traditional holidays, but that's no reason to spread lies and slander about other cultures.


[edit on 23-9-2009 by Core90]

[edit on 23-9-2009 by Core90]

Santa cluase orginated with St Nicholas of the catholic church who would go around with toys to I think poor kids during a certain period..



But whoever turned it into the fat guy with a beard might of been of pagan influence. which takes away from the birth of Christ.

Ad for that, I have an article I'm still trying to find about him being born in december which he might have been. I'll find it.


but you mix santa clause up and you get..


Satan clause. If you mix santa up.


But anyways OP.


I celebrate


1. halloween - Just innocent fun... nobody takes it serious... it's just a fun time with candy and walking... never made me lose the faith whatsoever..

2. Christmas - supposed to be Christ Mass..... even if he wasn't born on that day, we don't know when he was, so we celebrate not the exact date if you will, but his birth in general...



3. thanksgiving - yes I celebrate that, it's a giving of thanks for us being able to eat and have food. watch football.



4. Easter - I don't like the whole rabbit thing, but it really doesn't or didn't have an affect on me. All kids care about anyways is the candy...




peace.

Tertullian (d. 222):
“Against the Jews,” PL II, col. 614

1) records that the nativity of Jesus took place in the year 41 of Caesar Augustus. Although this is one year earlier that Jerome’s, this is due to the fact that Tertullian is going strictly by the Latin dating (which, as we saw earlier, places the nativity one calendar year prior to the Greek calendar, since December 25 is a calendar year prior to January 6), and it is known that Jerome, though a Latin, was using Greek sources when he was living in Palestine.

2) records that the sun stopped shining in the middle of the day at the crucifixion of Christ. This is noted in Tertullian’s “Apologeticum” Bk. 1, ch 21:

“He wrought many wonders that were appropriate to such a death. Thus, at the time when the sun was in the middle of its orbit, the day was suddenly deprived of its brightness so that those who did not know that this prodigy had been foretold for the death of Christ did not understand the reason for it. Later they denied that it had happened, but you can find [the record of] this worldwide event stored in your archives.”

A corroborating text comes from a secular historian known as Phlegon who was a freed slave of Hadrian the emperor (117-138 AD):

“...in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad there was an eclipse of the sun which was so remarkable that nothing comparable had ever been seen before. At the sixth hour of the day [noon], the darkness was such that one could see the stars” (Fragmenta Historicum Graecorum, Didot. Paris 1849, vol. iii, Phlegon, Bk 13, ch. 14, as cited in J. S. Daly’s “The Controversy Concerning the Dates of the Birth and Death of Jesus Christ”).

NB: This phenomenon would not have been an eclipse caused by the moon, since darkness only occurs over specific areas of the earth in a total eclipse, and does not last very long in any case. The gospels record that the sun stopped shining for three hours.

Origen (d. 254) in “Contra Celsus,” Bk. 2, n. 33, corroborates Phlegon’s testimony:

“The eclipse which took place at the time of Tiberius, during whose reign Christ was crucified, and the great earthquakes of the same time, wer noted by Phlegon in his Books 13 and 24.”

Other Historians of the Church:


John Malalas (d. 578)
“Chronographia” PG xcvii, col. 351 in sequence:

Records: “In the 4th month of the 42nd year of Augustus, on the 8th of the Calends of January [that is, December 25th] at the seventh hour of the day, our Lord Jesus Christ was born at Bethlehem”

“He was baptized in the Jordan on the sixth day of the month of Audynae (i.e., January)”

“In the year 18 of the reign of Tiberius, in the 7th month, our Lord Jesus Christ was betrayed by Judas His disciple. On the 23rd of March, the third day of the moon, the fifth day of the week at the fifth hour of the night [11 pm], He was led before Caiphas...On the following day he was taken to Pilate...He was crucified on the fourteenth day of the moon...At that time the sun was bereft of its light and darkness covered the whole earth.”

Paul the Deacon
“Miscellaneous History,” PL xcv, col. 858-864

Records: “In the twelfth year of the reign of Tiberius, at Fidenae, an amphitheater collapsed burying 20,000 people. Seven years later, at the time when Our Lord was suffering his Passion, there was an immense earthquake. Rocks were split in the mountains. On the same day, the sun was darkened from the 6th to the 9th hour. Darkness covered the whole of the earth and the stars appeared.”

Julius Africanus
Extant Fragments, PG x, col. 90

Records: “In the year of the world 5533, that is 33 of Christ, namely the first year of the 203rd Olympiad, at the moment when Christ suffered his Passion horrific darkness covered the world and rocks were broken by an earthquake.”

Orosius (d. 418)
“History Against the Pagans,” PL xxxi, book 7, col. 1059

1) records that Christ was born in December of 1 BC
2) records that in the year 3 of Christ, Herod slaughtered the innocents
3) records that in the year 6 AD, Herod died, eaten by worms
4) records that in the year 28, Tiberius sent Pilate to be governor of Judea
5) records that in the year 33, the passion took place on the 8th of the Calends of April, which is March 25th.

Cassiodorus (d. 580)
“Chronicle,” PL lxix, col. 1228

1) records that the passion of Christ took place in the year 18 of Tiberius, on the 8th of the Calends of April, during an eclipse of the sun. He also writes: “Jesus Christ the Son of God was born at Bethlehem in the year 41 of the reign of Augustus.”

Sulpitius Severus (d. 420)
“Historia Sacra,” PL xx, col. 144

1) records that Christ was born in the year 33 of Herod, on the 8th of the Calends of January [December 25], and that Herod died four years later; and that Christ was crucified in the 24th year of Herod the Younger (i.e., Herod Antipas).

Epiphanius (d. 403)
De Anno Natali Christi and De Anno Passionis Christi, PG xiii, cols. 902 and 978

1) records that Christ was born in the Julian year 45 (1 BC on our calendar), the fourth year of the 194th Olympiad, and that the passion took place in the 18th year of Tiberius on March 25, and the Resurrection on the 27th.

NB: As noted, discrepancies are often explained by the differences in ordinal and cardinal numbers in the various dating systems.




it's from an article, not the same one I have though.

peace

reply to post by JesusisTruth


It's so funny that you try to prove Dec. 25 as the date of Jesus birth. Even the two gospels speaking of His birth disagree with the winter season.

We read that the shepherds are out living in the fields among their flocks. If you read history, you'll know that this doesn't happen in winter because it's too cold for the shepherds to live in the fields and the flock would be in the stables at night.

We also read that Mary and Joseph had to leave for Bethlehem for a census report. The Romans had enough sense not to do this in the winter due to unpassable roadways and long travel times in the cold. Roman censuses usually took place in late summer/early fall.

We also learn that Zecharias, John the Baptist father, was a high priest who held the priesthood a week or two before the conception of John with Elizabeth. He was in the priesthood of Abijah which took place twice a year at the same time every year. His priesthood took place around the feast of Pentacost and two weeks later would be somewhere in late May, early June for John's conception. 9 months later...in March, John was born. Jesus mentions John as "Elijah" and the Jews knew Elijah would return on the day of Passover. Putting John's birth in March works perfect for this scenario. We also learn that John is exactly 6 months older than Jesus so figuring 6 months from march or more precisely on Passover, we find Jesus born in the months of September or early October and six months from Passover is the "Feast of Trumpets". Also, there's this belief that Jesus was concieved on Hannaka as He's symbolized through the "lights" of Hannaka (festival of lights) in the book of John (the Light of the World). Even this agrees with September for birth. Nowhere in the New testament is there even a hint of evidence pointing Jesus' birth in the winter time.

my take on it is that if a "holiday" has some form of religious meaning to it, then partaking in it implies worshiping or at least providing support of that worship.

if god says only to worship him, then i cant partcipate in something that even implies worship to something else.

least thats how i feel

Originally posted by KyoZero
That's right...us Pagans are some evil folk. It's strange because in all the sabbats I have celebrated not a single person died...

and as for the orgies around Valentines day...well some people may have done so way back when but it doesn't represent us now...huh...that sound familiar

and FYI...Satanists are not Pagans

-Kyo

[edit on 22-9-2009 by KyoZero]

Agreed!!

I get tired of people saying this about Pagans. People should really read about it before they make statements like this.

[edit on 9/24/2009 by mblahnikluver]

Originally posted by mblahnikluver
I get tired of people saying this about Pagans. People should really read about it before they make statements like this.

pagans tend to be more passive and less rigid about worship.

the bible by contrast is very specific about certain things.

think of it less as "pagans are bad and we must avoid them" and more as "if i partake in this, will i be violating what the bible tells me to do

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by mblahnikluver
I get tired of people saying this about Pagans. People should really read about it before they make statements like this.

pagans tend to be more passive and less rigid about worship.

the bible by contrast is very specific about certain things.

think of it less as "pagans are bad and we must avoid them" and more as "if i partake in this, will i be violating what the bible tells me to do

Well no because they dont say it that way. Its always "Pagans are evil and satanic" its never about the bible beliefs. If it was I would heard that and not the other. I know many who have no idea about Pagans yet still just say oh they are evil without reading anything about them or even having an ounce of nerve to back it up.

It's life...thanks for agreeing but I have heard it day in and day out here on ATS and in the real world. We're all bad...period

Why just last week while slaughtering an animal I thought...huh...it's getting near Hallowen

As ridiculous as that is to say I swear some Christians are waiting for me to say something like that and be telling the truth

And FYI JIT...Xmas spawns from Yule...Pagans celebrated it first. Alot of your holidays and twistings of our sabbats

-Kyo

locoman, I have another interesting article about the winter and his birthdate.


Like I said, it doesn't matter when he was born, we don't know, what we celebrate is his birth IN general...




and as for Kyo.... It doesn't matter if pagans celebrated a holiday on december 25th first, that's not the point, the point is that we celebrate the birth of Christ and Christ himself.


In general... and the bible clearly says let no man judge you of sabbaths and certain holidays.


it's just a simple celebration, but what considers the soul should be of much more importance.


after death all other things will be sorted out.

peace.

[edit on 24-9-2009 by JesusisTruth]

I understand...my point was if you stole the holiday and distorted as many admit now, how do we know people didn't lie about Christ or God in the first place?

-Kyo