Questions for 9/11 Debunkers Re: Twin Towers' Destruction.

reply to post by bsbray11


Not a big rumble.

Not like an impact, like a rumble, like moving furniture in a massive way.

And lets look at definitons shall we?

Main Entry: 1rum·ble
Pronunciation: \ˈrəm-bəl\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): rum·bled; rum·bling \-b(ə-)liŋ\
Etymology: Middle English; akin to Middle High German rummeln to rumble
Date: 14th century
intransitive verb
1 : to make a low heavy rolling sound
2 : to travel with a low reverberating sound
3 : to speak in a low rolling tone
4 : to engage in a rumble
transitive verb
1 : to utter or emit in a low rolling voice
2 British : to reveal or discover the true character of

SOURCE:[email protected]

Main Entry: 1boom
Pronunciation: \ˈbüm\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English bomben, bummen, of imitative origin
Date: 15th century
intransitive verb
1 : to make a deep hollow sound
2 a : to increase in importance, popularity, or esteem b : to experience a sudden rapid growth and expansion usually with an increase in prices c : to develop rapidly in population and importance d : to increase greatly in size or number
transitive verb
1 : to cause to resound —often used with out
2 : to cause a rapid growth or increase of : boost
3 : to hit or kick forcefully

Source:[email protected]
But given the obfuscations you have used thus far I don't expect any different. Good day sir.



[edit on 2-10-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

And that's not taking into account the fact that his timeline doesn't even add up.

The time between American flight 11 hitting the north tower and United flight 175 hitting the south tower was less than 16 1/2 minutes.
8:46:40 – Flight 11 hits the north tower.
9:02:50 (ca.) – Flight 175 hits the south tower.
9:59 – South tower collapses.
10:28 – North tower collapses.
When William Rodriguez tells his 9/11 story, he claims to have been on or near the 39th floor of the north tower when the south tower was struck by flight 175 at 9:03, and to have descended from there.
They continued to ascend to the 39th floor. This is as far as William got before he was turned back by the firefighters. As he began his descent he heard the plane hit the south tower.
source
On the 39th floor, William met with New York Police and Fire Department officials where he witnessed another great, powerful explosion. Despite the other plane hitting the north tower’s twin, it was still felt in the World Trade Center 1. source
Unlocking doors for the firefighters as he went, William got to the 39th floor before he was turned back by the firefighters. As he began his descent he heard a plane hit the south tower. source
For Rodriguez to have been on the 39th floor before the south tower was struck, the following events would have had to take place in 16 minutes
(see corresponding numbered items on the graphic below):
1. Flight 11 hits the north tower. Rodriguez is in an office with 14 others in sublevel B1. Felipe David, who had been on the B2 level, comes up the stairs and enters the office, badly burned.
2. Rodriguez, with Felipe David "on his back," makes his way out of the building, through the underground parking garage, and up the ramp to Vesey Street, along with 14 others. He puts David in an ambulance. He learns that an aircraft has hit the north tower, argues with supervisor Saltamacchia about returning to the building, grabs a radio from a security guard, and heads back in.
3. He retraces his route through the parking lot and runs all the way to the south tower. He finds no one at the Operations Command Center in the basement. He tells Jimmy Barrett to leave the building.
4. He goes upstairs and sees a Marriott hotel employee manning her station on her first day at work, and "pushes her out" of the building. This is around 700 feet from Vesey Street, where he had put David on the ambulance.
5. He heads back to the north tower basement, where he's told that people are yelling in an elevator shaft. Two men are trapped between the B2 and B3 levels. Water is pouring into the elevator from broken standpipes and sprinklers. Rodriguez and Jimmy Barrett get a pipe and pry open the shaft doors. Rodriguez goes to the loading dock, where luckily the electricians have left their longest ladder unchained. He brings the ladder to the shaft, lowers it, climbs down, opens the hatch, and helps the men out.
6. He brings the men out of the building to an ambulance. Perhaps by the same route as before?
7. Rodriguez goes back to the north tower. On the B1 level, he sees firefighters gathered around the fallen #50 freight elevator, which had contained Arturo Griffith and Marlene Cruz. He meets PAPD K9 officer David Lim, who asks if Rodriguez has the building's master key. He does. They go upstairs to the lobby, where firefighters hope to use a working elevator. Rodriguez and Lim tell them to use the stairs, and they proceed up together.
8. With Lim, at the vanguard of a group of firefighters, he climbs the narrow B stairway to the 27th floor against heavy traffic of evacuees. It is very difficult going. He stops to unlock the stairway-to-office doors on three out of every four floors (and presumably lets first responders in or props the doors open).
9. On the 27th floor he sees a man in a wheelchair awaiting evacuation (Ed Beyea). He returns to the 25th floor to notify firemen, who tell him that slower evacuees are taken out last.
10. Back up to the 27th floor with firemen, who take a break there. Rodriguez and Lim traverse the building core to another stairway, break into a bottled water vending machine, load bottles into a trash can, and bring them back to the firemen. Lim sits and rests there.
11. Rodriguez calls his mother from an office phone on the 27th floor. He speaks to his supervisor on the radio, who tells him to get out. He says no and turns his radio off.
12. He continues up the stairs by himself, unlocking doors. On the 33rd floor he finds a woman who is paralyzed with fear and passes her on to evacuees heading down the stairs. He opens a supply closet and takes dust masks for use in the smoky stairway. He notes an unusual noise coming from the 34th floor and elects not to open that door.
13. He continues up, unlocking doors, and reaches the 39th floor. There he is told by Dave Lim and firefighters to turn around. Then he hears flight 175 hit the south tower, which shakes his building, and he hears "boom, boom. boom, boom boom, boom." sounds. A fireman's radio squawks something about a collapse on the 65th floor of the north tower. According to Rodriguez, it is just over 16 minutes since the ordeal started.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a1dfe4aa4d57.jpg[/atsimg]
There are several reasons why we know Rodriguez's timeline is off, and why the noise he heard on or near the 39th floor was not flight 175 hitting the south tower at 9:03 but was the south tower collapsing at 9:59.
First, it would be physically impossible to accomplish these things in just over 16 minutes. As a mental exercise I assigned what I thought would be theoretically minimum times for each task, assuming top physical condition for Rodriguez and no pauses in action, and didn't come close to squeezing it all in.

The Radio Transmissions



Second, there are transcripts of Port Authority radio recordings that include conversations with Rodriguez. The first concerns his rescue of Salvatore Giambanco and another man in a basement elevator. Rodriguez was a porter (janitor) for American Building Maintenance (ABM). After the north tower was attacked, an ABM supervisor frantically tried to gather all the porters at a location away from the towers. Rodriguez was working on the rescue in the K elevator car:


Male: I want all ABM porters to meet me at Church and Liberty by Brooks Brothers.


Willy: (inaudible) is injured. I’m inside the building with, uh ...(inaudible). We’re helping people stuck inside the elevator (?).


John: Willy, what floor you on, Willy?


Willy: We are in the B1 office now, on the K car.


Male: Willy, get out of the office and come outside on Church Street.


Willy: Copy, as soon as we get these people out. We’re getting them out now.


Male: Willy, I want you to go right to Church Street and Liberty! Get to Liberty and Broadway!

Willy: You got it. (PA transcript 049, WTC Ch. 28 – Radio Channel Y – Operations, Page 10)
The transcript's time code begins when the north tower was attacked. The above exchange took place at 19:45 on the tape, after the south tower had been hit.

Later, this exchange occurred:

Male: Go for (inaudible) Rodriguez. Come outside, by Church.

Male: That’s a negative. I’m with the Port Authority police, and the fire department are right here, right now. (PA transcript 049, WTC Ch. 28 – Radio Channel Y – Operations, Page 21)[/center]

That exchange, the last on which Rodriguez appears in the transcripts, took place approximately 44 minutes from the start of tape, at about 9:30 am. Rodriguez said that he had turned off his radio at the 27th floor, on the way up, after refusing a supervisor's request to exit the building. These radio transmissions show that Rodriguez could not have been near the 39th floor when the south tower was hit at 9:03.

Then there is the time to descend. Rodriguez's chronology would have him ascending 42 stories (starting from B1 and doing 25-27 twice) against heavy traffic, opening doors and accomplishing other tasks, in only about 5 minutes. Then the descent would have taken about an hour and twenty-four minutes, despite the fact that he ran part of the way down from the 39th floor. From his June, 2006 "American Scholars" speech:
"I ran down to the 27th floor. I scream to the firemen, I have orders to get this guy (Ed Beyea) out right now!" (They proceeded to descend immediately.)

More to be found at Source.



[edit on 2-10-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

You are incredible watcher from the shadows.. unbelievable.

Ok so you're saying that William Rodrigues is a bold faced liar because he got a little mixed up on the timing of something.

The lengths to which you'll go, to be right. (shakes in head in wonder).

I don't understand you, what you are about or where you are coming from in this.

Oh well, sigh.. to each his own as they say I guess..

Perhaps I'll put some more first hand eyewitness testimony up over the weekend, but I'm not sure I have the energy or the stomach for this work. It's starting to make me sick.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


It's Watcher-In-The-Shadows, are you really going to play those childish games now? And I am soo sorry dissent makes you feel sick. But it's funny to watch the exceptions and out right deflections being made to accomedate him, which is real telling. It should also be noted I pointed out how his statements have changed as well.... Ah well.

And you say I am going to "lengths" by pointing out that his timeline is physically impossible to achieve which proves that he is lying not a "little mixed up". Allow me to quote:

First, it would be physically impossible to accomplish these things in just over 16 minutes. As a mental exercise I assigned what I thought would be theoretically minimum times for each task, assuming top physical condition for Rodriguez and no pauses in action, and didn't come close to squeezing it all in.

He did NOT get mixed up. He is claiming he did more than he possibly could have in the time allowed him.

And I am rather suprised that say you don't understand me. Considering the sheer amount of comments based your assumptions about my character you make. I mean half the time you are claiming you have me all figured out.



[edit on 2-10-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

And shortly after that loud rumble or boom in the sub-basement floors, I suppose that the guy who ran into Rodrigues' office with his skin hanging off his arms, which the other people in the room also witnessed, was lying too..?

I would just like to remind anyone following along that Watcher is trying to dismiss William Rodriguez as a witness because he doesn't think he could have hid under the protection of a firetruck, and because he thinks Willie changed his story when he used the words "big rumble" in one instance and "strong boom" in another. Thus the needlessly long posts try to scramble anything that seems like it makes sense.

reply to post by bsbray11

If that's his reaction to Rodrigues, then one wonders what he'll have to say about the testimony of the firefighters.. deluded, false memories, liars all I guess..?

When all the evidence points in one direction, how shameful to have access to it all, and be seen pointing in another. It's not just denial because of the magnitude of the evil or the Big Lie, it's a willful denial in the face of massive amounts of evidence to the contrary.

I can understand why Zelikow and other insiders would defend the myth and deflect away from evidence to the contrary, but what to make of some of these people, people who've done the research and who have access to the evidence without the vested interest, what's their motivation?

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
reply to post by bsbray11

 

If that's his reaction to Rodrigues, then one wonders what he'll have to say about the testimony of the firefighters.. deluded, false memories, liars all I guess..?

That's usually what they all say, yes. I have no interest in even hearing all the denial and excuses applied so hypocritically only to people who heard or otherwise experienced explosions.

The individuals who started the conspiracy theory of bombs being used to drop the towers, did this on purpose to make the REAL cover-ups on that day seem less believable. The REAL cover-ups on that day concerned...

1. The US military immediately recognized this was an inside job, and...
2. Struck the SOURCE of the attack (The Pentagon) with a cruise missile
3. There was no Pentagon plane

Anyone with an IQ above 90 could see on LIVE TV that day, that the towers collapsed at the level where the planes struck. No pilot, not even an experienced airline pilot, could have brought the planes in to certain floors where explosives were already present.

Similarly, no pilot who was flying a jumbo jet for the first time (like the Arabs behind the sticks that day) could have struck the Pentagon at the point of a forward-facing floor of a 5 floor building. 30 feet to high and the plane would have gone over the roof and into the other side. 30 feet too low and the plane would have hit the lawn. What DID hit the Pentagon, hit exactly where a cruise missile would hit.

Again, it's sad because this kind of crap is distracting everyone from the Civil War type of problems (1, 2, 3 above) that we are in the midst of.

Sad.

Originally posted by Truth_Seeker_82
Anyone with an IQ above 90 could see on LIVE TV that day, that the towers collapsed at the level where the planes struck. No pilot, not even an experienced airline pilot, could have brought the planes in to certain floors where explosives were already present.

Nope, sorry, doesn't cut it. If you cut the core columns, the core structure, anywhere even near the impacted floors (say the nearest mechanical floor), then the outer perimeter columns would NATURALLY fail where the planes struck, where they were weakest. The core is cut, then the load is redistributed upon the outer walls which can't take all the weight. Simple.

That's not my only ammunition. There's also some logic...

Why drop the buildings when two planes striking them would be plenty enough horror for your War plans?

No logic, just paranoia.

Did I mention that a missile struck the Pentagon?

reply to post by Truth_Seeker_82


Your 'logic' means nothing when all the evidence points to a controlled demolition.

How else do you explain the lack of resistance and the tilt of the top of WTC 2? If gravity was the only force causing collapse the top of WTC 2 would have continued it's angular momentum and fell into the path of least resistance, instead it took the path of most resistance which goes against all know physics. Thus the building must have collapsed independent of the tilting top. That is logic.

Originally posted by Truth_Seeker_82
That's not my only ammunition. There's also some logic...

Why drop the buildings when two planes striking them would be plenty enough horror for your War plans?

I'm still waiting on the logic. I see that you asked a question, but could you phrase your question in the form of a statement, with citations/references/etc. to substantiate it?

Did I mention that a missile struck the Pentagon?

Ok. I don't know what the hell happened at the Pentagon. But thanks for that.

Look at the difference in strike elevation of the two pilots for the two different towers in NYC. Both of these pilots had a 'mission objective' with regards to hitting the building at a certain point. They both had the same objective. (probably half-way)

Again, no pilot who was flying a jumbo jet for the first time (like the Arabs behind the sticks that day) could have struck the Pentagon at the point of a forward-facing floor of a 5 floor building. 30 feet to high and the plane would have gone over the roof and into the other side. 30 feet too low and the plane would have hit the lawn. What DID hit the Pentagon, hit exactly where a cruise missile would hit.

Again, it's sad because this kind of bombs-in-the-buildings crap is distracting everyone from the Civil War type of problems that we are in the midst of, and that were the reason for the US military firing a missile at the pentagon that day.

Sad.

Oh yeah... on topic... there were no bombs in the building that day.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by Truth_Seeker_82]

There's nothing distracting me from keeping up with a whole range of topics outside of 9/11. And I really doubt the Arabic suspects were actually flying the planes as well, because of the precision that would have to have been involved simply to hit the buildings at 600 mph. I have listened to and read many pilots say it would be very difficult to control a jumbo jet at those speeds, that you would have to know exactly what you're going with your navigation system shut off (like the alleged hijackers) and have your plane aimed directly at the buildings from a good distance away since it's too difficult to make great adjustments at those speeds closer to the building and still hit it.

Originally posted by Truth_Seeker_82
Oh yeah... on topic... there were no bombs in the building that day.

Thanks for that, too. Just one opinion amongst many, but one that I happen to realize neglects a very large body of evidence.

I still hold strong to my belief that the bombs-in-the-buildings conspiracy theories are DELIBERATELY being spread and defended with almost psychophant-levels of belief, for the sole purpose of distracting everyone from what happened at the Pentagon.

And besides, who cares? Most of the people above the impact points would have died anyway. Most of the people BELOW the impact point were evacuated. MAYBE 10% less people would have died had it not been for the collapses. So why the big hoopla?

There's a BIGGER hoopla, and it has five sides to it.

When you said,

I don't know what the hell happened at the Pentagon.

I immediately knew something that will stay behind my bitten tounge. For someone like you to have the ability to comprehend all the technical details of the WTC collapse, and have no idea what happened at the pentagon in light of what I wrote (my words quoted again below), I am now perfectly aware of something that I will not say due to forum guidelines, as well as my experience at these types of message forums.

This ain't my first BBQ.

One more time:

Look at the difference in strike elevation of the two pilots for the two different towers in NYC. Both of these pilots had a 'mission objective' with regards to hitting the building at a certain point. They both had the same objective. (probably the half-way point)

Again, no pilot who was flying a jumbo jet for the first time (like the Arabs behind the sticks that day), could have struck the Pentagon at the point of a forward-facing floor of a 5 floor building. 30 feet to high and the plane would have gone over the roof and into the other side. 30 feet too low and the plane would have hit the lawn. What DID hit the Pentagon, hit exactly where a cruise missile would hit.

reply to post by Truth_Seeker_82


There is a difficulty however, with the Pentagon as the primary focus. First the WTC twin towers destruction is symbolically and psycholigcally at the heart of the 9/11 story and experience, and second, and most importantly, while it can be shown that the Pentagon was not impact by a Boeing, and neither could have said Boeing been piloted by Hanjour, there was nevertheless a Boeing type aircraft at the scene, as reported by many many witnesses, as well as reliable witnesses, including those interview by the CIT boys, thus proving that the only possible explanation there, is a flyover scenario with a near simultaneous missile strike very likely including internal explosives, which involves a degree of complexity to stretch the imagination of even someone familiar with the controversy surrounding the Pentagon strike.

Originally posted by Truth_Seeker_82
I still hold strong to my belief that the bombs-in-the-buildings conspiracy theories are DELIBERATELY being spread and defended with almost psychophant-levels of belief, for the sole purpose of distracting everyone from what happened at the Pentagon.

And besides, who cares?

More people were killed by the WTC Towers completely collapsing, than ever died at the Pentagon.

The NYC attacks caused much more trauma and damage in general.

Most of the people above the impact points would have died anyway. Most of the people BELOW the impact point were evacuated. MAYBE 10% less people would have died had it not been for the collapses. So why the big hoopla?

Is this question supposed to debunk anything? If so, please put it in the form of a positive statement, and then prove it. What you keep doing is a logical fallacy. Just because I can't read the minds of the perpetrators doesn't mean x number of unrelated issues aren't relevant anymore. So like I said, put your "logic" in the form of a statement and see what you can come up with.

I don't know what the hell happened at the Pentagon.

I immediately knew something that will stay behind my bitten tounge.

Let me guess: I'm paid to do this. What difference would it make? Even if I was, you still haven't made a damned bit of logical sense so far. You wouldn't need a disinfo agent. You realize that, right? That I'm not just making this stuff up, you really aren't debunking anything here.

For someone like you to have the ability to comprehend all the technical details of the WTC collapse, and have no idea what happened at the pentagon in light of what I wrote (my words quoted again below)

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I just don't go around saying, a missile hit it, or, a cessna hit it, or any positive statement that I would then be inclined to validate at all. Because I have no way of knowing what actually hit it, if anything, in lack of videos, etc. I have for years refined the way I articulate my arguments to try to save myself from the onslaught of illogical reasoning, and to narrow my efforts onto a few single points that remain unaddressed. What happened at the Pentagon is a big he-said-she-said mess of eyewitness testimonies that I don't even want to step into. I would love to see further investigation into it as well. You just think the Pentagon is more important than what happened in NY for some reason. You are entitled to your opinions, the same as I am.

I am now perfectly aware of something that I will not say due to forum guidelines, as well as my experience at these types of message forums.

This ain't my first BBQ.

I have to admit, this is the first time I've been the one accused of a shill, so it's definitely a change. Still not sure what to think of it, honestly, besides that you're a very confused individual.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by Truth_Seeker_82
I still hold strong to my belief that the bombs-in-the-buildings conspiracy theories are DELIBERATELY being spread and defended with almost psychophant-levels of belief, for the sole purpose of distracting everyone from what happened at the Pentagon.

How do we know you're not trying to spread disinfo to distract us from the real truth that the towers were demolished using some kind of device?

Distracted from what happened at the pentacon?

You're a little confusing, you believe the pentacon was a missile, thus an inside job and not the lies we've been told, yet you want to claim the WTC towers came down as we're told? Even though there is FAR more evidence that the towers were demolished purposely, than there is for a missile at the pentacon. Most people gave up the missile angle years ago, it's more likely there were explosives inside the building, but that's just my opinion and for another thread.

You are complete disinfo, even if you realise it or not.

reply to post by bsbray11


You wanted proof. I provided it. You can't believe it or take it to the natural conclusion that's your problem. Good day.