Tired of military bashing...

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
And we don't call what the President says rhetoric. We call it the truth, because that's what it is.

You may well call it truth Affirmative Reaction, and that is your right. Personally I find it difficult to believe a single word that comes out of his mouth. And before you berate me for this, I didn't think much of Clinton either.

As for the military aspect, within every organisation we have the bad apples. Those who performed the abuse of the Iraqui prisoners are, indeed, not representative of the majority of the military. Unfortunately we do have certain people with the mindset of neanderthals who insist on damaging the reputation of genuine people in the military, in civilian life and even on the internet.

My opinion is well known. If the so-called leaders of the US and UK want to send people out to fight and possibly to die, then lets see them showing a good example. Get trained and get out there. Show some leadership instead of cowering inside the White House and Downing Street playing war.

Originally posted by Pisky
You may well call it truth Affirmative Reaction, and that is your right. Personally I find it difficult to believe a single word that comes out of his mouth. And before you berate me for this, I didn't think much of Clinton either.

As for the military aspect, within every organisation we have the bad apples. Those who performed the abuse of the Iraqui prisoners are, indeed, not representative of the majority of the military. Unfortunately we do have certain people with the mindset of neanderthals who insist on damaging the reputation of genuine people in the military, in civilian life and even on the internet.

My opinion is well known. If the so-called leaders of the US and UK want to send people out to fight and possibly to die, then lets see them showing a good example. Get trained and get out there. Show some leadership instead of cowering inside the White House and Downing Street playing war.

While I don't agree with you politically, I will defend your right to have your opinion with my life, and have been doing so for over twenty years, even though you are a Brit!

What we all need to remember is that the individuals who abused the Iraqi's could just as easily have been civilians, and many may have been. Most of the psychos are rooted out of the military very early. I personally have knowledge of an individual who brought a Samurai sword to basic training. Guess how long he lasted?

But come on now, the last statement, about our leaders getting out there in the pits, that's a bit much for anyone to swallow. There is and always has been a chain of command, and to expect the PM or President to go out and fight is, well, that's a bit out there, even for you!!!

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
But come on now, the last statement, about our leaders getting out there in the pits, that's a bit much for anyone to swallow. There is and always has been a chain of command, and to expect the PM or President to go out and fight is, well, that's a bit out there, even for you!!!

Maybe I am stuck in the mediaeval mindset, but I believe that the current Adminstrations of both the US and UK lack honour.

I stand with what I said before - they should get trained and get out there. Experience what they are expecting others to experience. See the fighting at first hand. Maybe then they wouldn't be so fast at declaring war on a country. Now, bin Laden is another story altogether. Where is he ? - why hasn't he been caught ? - because the military might that could have been sent after him and al qaeda have been embroiled in an urban war that could take years to end. While the US/UK forces are stuck in Iraq, bin Laden and his merry mullah's are decapitating people and more likely planning another bout of terrorism.

Originally posted by Pisky
Maybe I am stuck in the mediaeval mindset, but I believe that the current Adminstrations of both the US and UK lack honour.

I stand with what I said before - they should get trained and get out there. Experience what they are expecting others to experience. See the fighting at first hand. Maybe then they wouldn't be so fast at declaring war on a country. Now, bin Laden is another story altogether. Where is he ? - why hasn't he been caught ? - because the military might that could have been sent after him and al qaeda have been embroiled in an urban war that could take years to end. While the US/UK forces are stuck in Iraq, bin Laden and his merry mullah's are decapitating people and more likely planning another bout of terrorism.

I agree, you are stuck in the medieval mindset.

Comparing bin Ladin to the President and PM is like comparing apples and oranges. The former are two of the leaders of the free world, with many more responsibilities beyond fighting the war that is now going on. bin Ladin has but one thing to do...create terror....kill people. To ask that the Prez and PM go out and fight him face to face is asinine.

The main reason we have not been able to catch or kill him is political. We could most likely do it quickly, but the price paid to do it that way may be too high to pay. He is protected by backwards Islamic radicals and radical Madrassa school owners who will most likely never give him up. He has more money than the current price on his head, so who would turn him in for it, if they even know that the prize is available? He is a coward who hides in caves in the mountain while others die at his bidding. HE has no honor.
There is honor in both governments. They are both doing what they feel is the right thing to do to make their people, their countries, safe. You have the right to disagree. They have the right to do what they feel they must.

It's called Democracy.

By the way, with all the talk of them "getting trained and getting out there", Let me ask you this...are you now or have you ever been a member of the armed forces? If not, then I think you should be talking from expierience.

Get trained, and get out there yourself....

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

I agree, you are stuck in the medieval mindset.

I know it wasn't meant as one, but I take that as a compliment.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
Get trained, and get out there yourself....

I will - just as soon as Bush & Blair do the same. But I daresay I'll be waiting for quite a while.

He is a coward who hides in caves in the mountain while others die at his bidding. HE has no honor.

You do remember that little photo of the U.S. president hiding in an airplane during 9-11 dont you.

Then selling copies of it.

The rest of his staff building bunkers.

Originally posted by Pisky


I will - just as soon as Bush & Blair do the same. But I daresay I'll be waiting for quite a while.

Well, you seem to talk a good game...why don't you set the example?

Originally posted by ashley
He is a coward who hides in caves in the mountain while others die at his bidding. HE has no honor.

You do remember that little photo of the U.S. president hiding in an airplane during 9-11 dont you.

Then selling copies of it.

The rest of his staff building bunkers.

Read the rest of the post, and perhaps reply to all if it instead of just the parts you can twist to your liking.

Leader of the free world. Security measures he has no control over because Secret Service protocol takes over. Get it?

The rest of his staff building bunkers? that doesn't even make sense.

This is such an old argument that has been beaten into the ground, and been proven to be so much hogwash. I'm not even going to argue it any further because it isn't worth the time. Come on, come up with something new at least.

Regardless, as I looked back at your only other post in this thread, I decided you aren't worth any more time anyway.

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
Well, you seem to talk a good game...why don't you set the example?

Now that would be stupid wouldn't it ? I can just imagine getting there and finding out that Bush & Blair had played me for a fool. No thanks. I want us all to be on the same plane just to make sure there's no funny business

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Pisky]

Oh come on, are you serious?
I did read the entire post and only felt like commenting on the one piece. I didnt twist anything, i copied exactly what you said.

Dont give me the secret service line, please. Kennedy stayed in the whitehouse during the cuban missile crisis.
If your thinking was true they would of whisked him out of that classroom so fast but they didnt. He was hiding in that plane, not following protocol.

Whats the '"old argument" you are talking about? Come up with something new, I was commenting on what you were trying to wrap your little brain around.

Thanks for deciding I am not worth anymore of your valuable time.
Maybe you should spend some time with people smarter than you, you might find out you spelled lobotomy wrong.

You think that OBL doesn't have a political agenda? Look out then. The MId. East is a different place, they think in different ways, do things in a different manner. I would love to know how Muslims see him. That would add something to the equation. I also would like to go back 230 years and ask the average Brit what he thought of George Washington. Sorry, at the time women had no opinion.

Originally posted by ashley

Dont give me the secret service line, please. Kennedy stayed in the whitehouse during the cuban missile crisis.
If your thinking was true they would of whisked him out of that classroom so fast but they didnt. He was hiding in that plane, not following protocol.

Whats the '"old argument" you are talking about? Come up with something new, I was commenting on what you were trying to wrap your little brain around.

Thanks for deciding I am not worth anymore of your valuable time.
Maybe you should spend some time with people smarter than you, you might find out you spelled lobotomy wrong.

The "old argument" is exactly what I said, the one about GWB hiding. It's a moot point, besides being asinine. They didn't "whisk him out of that classroom" because they didn't know what they had until the second airplane hit. After that, the chances of him being hit at the school were pretty slim, but you are totally wrong, Secret Service protocols WERE being followed after he left Florida.

Kennedy stayed in the white house because the intelligence at the time said that the missiles were not yet operational, they were being set up, and more missiles were on the way. Again, moot point. I'll ignore the "little brain" comment. It holds no water from a moron of your biblical proportions.

And if you DID have half a brain, you may have figured out that the word "lobotomy" was spelled incorrectly on purpose. It's called irony, dinkus....and since you have no real argument to put forth and must criticize my spelling, why don�t you go back and check your punctuation. Have you ever heard of an apostrophe? Do you know how to capitalize? Again, don�t call the kettle black�..people smarter than me? Surely you don't mean yourself!

But hey, you could spend some time with those more intelligent than yourself. There should be an elementary school near by.

Originally posted by intrepid
You think that OBL doesn't have a political agenda? Look out then. The MId. East is a different place, they think in different ways, do things in a different manner. I would love to know how Muslims see him. That would add something to the equation. I also would like to go back 230 years and ask the average Brit what he thought of George Washington. Sorry, at the time women had no opinion.

Read the post. I never said that he didn't have a political agenda, I said that the PM and the Prez are leaders of COUNTRIES! they have more to do than ONLY fight this war, which is why they have a governmental structure behind them, and a military chain of command.

bin Ladin is the leader of a few radical rag heads in a cave with the donkey that wears the mop every night....

And are you telling ME about the Middle East? sorry to burst your little bubble, but I've spent more time in more Middle Eastern countries than you know exist!

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]

"And are you telling ME about the Middle East? sorry to burst your little bubble, but I've spent more time in more Middle Eastern countries than you know exist!

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]"

Well, maybe you should have done more listening, then you would know that things are different there. BTW, do you want those Eastern nations listed alphabetically.

BTW, I tried to sign up when Desert Storm was happening, they had a problem with my age, too old, and my past, damn tests actually can test your liver.

Originally posted by intrepid
"And are you telling ME about the Middle East? sorry to burst your little bubble, but I've spent more time in more Middle Eastern countries than you know exist!

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]"

Well, maybe you should have done more listening, then you would know that things are different there. BTW, do you want those Eastern nations listed alphabetically.

Get your map out and go for it. I'd bet dollars to dozens I've been to more than you would ever believe....

Originally posted by intrepid
BTW, I tried to sign up when Desert Storm was happening, they had a problem with my age, too old, and my past, damn tests actually can test your liver.

Should have done it sooner. Then you could be looking at retiring soon as I am....

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Then you should make your post clearer. You said you didn't buy it as an excuse, as if it was going to be allowed. Sorry, but if you meant the same as I, then you need to learn to express yourself better...

I thought it was clear that I meant that I do not buy the "I was only following orders" excuse. As I said, whether it be from a police officer, a traffic warden, or a bank teller.

As far as expressing myself goes, I think I do quite alright in that respect thankyouverymuch.

Free flow of ideas? HAAAAAA!!! Give me a BREAK!!! The only thing you did was bash me for my reply to your little buddy. Give it a rest...

No. I bashed you, as you call it because if you would carefully read your first reply to my post it was laden with sarcasm and verbal abuse. But I'm a stand up girl..if you want to step to me, I can take it, as you said this is the mud pit after all.

And yes, I do believe in the free flow of ideas. I can respect your passion to feel as you do, so why can't you respect MINE...even if it IS the opposite of what you believe ?

Well, I think you have proved to everyone here that you can't read, so go get mommy to read what Intrepid actually said to me...he said:

I don't consider what Intrepid said to be too terribly abusive, but I do consider telling people they can't read and insinuating that someone is stupid IS. Telling someone they are full of # is different then trying to humiliate them. That's just plain evil in my book.

Now, if you want to keep floating your crappola down the river, you go right ahead, but it might be a little less embarrassing if you said something that was a little harder to prove as a total load of buffalo biscuits...

One womans crappola is another womans treasure.

I never claimed anything in my posts. I simply posted my opinion, albeit a radical one. But that's my business. If everybody thought the same as you we'd have ZERO safety nets in place for the poor because everything we HAVE would be spent on the military. MY OPINION. So what exactly am I supposed to prove then ?

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by KayEm]

Oh, I'm sorry...am I being EVIL again????

[Edited on 17-5-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

You don't, and you still didn't.

Maybe you just don't speak my language.

My reply to you was indeed laced with sarcasm, but it was in response to your shiity post to me, when I had never said one word to you. Let others stick up for themselves. Who are you, everybody's mother?

Sorry..I have this funny little habit. It's called loyalty. You see, I've read a ton of Treps posts but these are the first I've seen from you. Is this what they teach in the military ? To debase those who would stand up for another ? I thought that's part of what the military was all about.

You showed me nothing but DISRESPECT. Therefore, you'll get nothing else in return. you don't get it both ways.

You completely misunderstood me. Completely. Anybody who knows me knows I am never flat-out disrespectful of ANYONE on purpose. I simply come out with all guns blazing when I feel myself or another person is attacked unfairly.

The only thing I expect from you is to be able to agree to disagree. I will never back down from my opinions as I'm sure you won't. So we need to leave it at that. In case you didn't notice, that was a white flag I'm waving. Enough, in other words. I've stated my opinion. You've stated yours. Our paths obviously don't meet and we don't speak the same language. Let's just forget it. ok?

Of course you don't, because you agree with him. I replied with the same tone I got from him. He is very capable of speaking for himself. But don't try to disguise it with mock regard for someone else. Stand up and be counted as yourself instead of hiding behind another�s ideas.

No. The reason I don't see his posts to you as abusive if because, as I said, IMO telling somebody they are full of # is not the same as trying to humiliate them by implying they are stupid. And I am fully aware that he doesn't need anybody else to take up for him. I mean no disrespect towards him, it's just my way. And I'm not changing. My regards for others is never fake and quite frankly I resent your saying so. I don't hide behind anything. I say it straight out, I always have.

And I never hide behind anyone elses ideas. Ask anyone who knows me. The idea is laughable.

You know, It's kinda hard to jump into the middle of a post where there's already a full-scale 'debate' going on. It takes guts I think to just jump in there with your own thoughts and I think that deserves a little respect on it's own merit.

I don't take drugs, as if it was any of your business. Which it's not.

The reason I said that bit about the poor etc was because you attacked me when I complained about the hospitals, etc being built in iraq by your people (the military).

Hey..I'm open. Correct me if I'm wrong. My impression of you and your consorts is that you are 'militarily' minded to the detriment and exclusion of everything else. That meaning that as long as the military gets the money (which is always DOES under repugnants) to do what Bush orders, the Hell with the rest of OUR country, HERE, and what WE need for OUR people.

I don't want to think this way. If you think I do then you're sadly mistaken. Tell me I'm wrong, please. Because it would be nice to know that our military men are thinking men as well.