Harder To Believe In - God or Aliens?

Originally posted by StrangeLands
a) Your insistence that anyone who reads the bible will understand God's word (despite the fact that I, and thousands of people like me, have read the bible but prefer our fiction in paperback)...

Gods most important message was communicated through the life of Jesus Christ and is not that hard to understand. People may interpret some passages differently, it does not change the main message.

b) The fact that you had the temerity to inaccurately correct my grammer (you said "Christianity", therefore I said "it". It's an "it", you see. Not a "they". Is that clear?)...

"It also inflicted it's own vainglorious world view on others." Some Christians inflicted their own worldview on others, not Christianity, Christianity is a religion and can not inflict anything, "is that clear"?

c) Your declaration that "Morons doing stupid things in the name of God is not to be mistaken with the religion of 'Christianity'"actually refers, in the examples I gave, to the Catholic Church, and the Pope in particular, and if they can't be considered Christians, who the hell can?

Where did you get the idea that the Catholic Church is a good representation of Christians and Christianity?
The whole idea of having a pope, of glorifying Maria and all kinds of other saints is not based on anything in the bible, and most Christians don't even see the Catholic religion as the same religion as theirs.

Firstly, you've got to stop picking up on hyperbole and humour and treating them like serious arguments - I know that scientists and rationalists aren't the same thing as atheists, but you'll find that most scientists and rationalists are atheists.

Did you investigate this StrangeLands?
I am a rationalist myself, but I am also a Christian.
Your little "hyperbole" does nothing but underline the cliche that smart people do not believe in God, and dumb people do.
If that was ment as humour then it wasn't really funny.

you don't know that, unless you have secret evidence that you're keeping from the rest of us. You believe it. Not, my credible friend, the same thing. And if you only believe it, then you must rationally accept the possibility that you are wrong. And if there is a possibility that you are wrong, then you must admit your faith is flawed.

That's quite a special theory you made there, too bad it makes no sense whatsoever.
First of all, my "secret evidence" is the story of Jesus as put in the bible.
It's the biggest and most amazing proof of Gods love for us, and of his grace.
Second, the whole idea of believing is that even though you can not prove it, you know that you are not wrong.
Your little theory suggests that everyone who believes must admit that their faith is flawed, quite an ignorant thing to say. (or is this a joke as well?)

Thirdly, as I stated earlier, I am no stranger to the bible. I know it's easier for you to believe - there's that word again - that everyone else is stupider than you, but it's simply not the case.

This explains your entire view on Christians.
People who did not find God yet are not "stupider" in any way.
Was I stupid before I found out that God actually exists?
Do not look down on others just because they did not have the right chance to discover God yet. Most of my friends are not christian, do you really think I value people according to what they believe in?
This is not a game about who is right, this is about sharing the truth and hope and new dimension that I've found in Christianity.

Unfortunately, that negates your "the answer is in the bible, you've never read the bible, you can't possibly understand my point" argument.

You can very well understand my point, but I just see how you have a lot of misconceptions regarding the bible and Christianity, reading the bible would help.

But I do, jakko, I do. That's why I can summon up this little nugget to answer your question regarding NephraTari's earlier point about materialism:
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
But then, you'll probably protest that the Bible was written by morons and "is not to be mistaken with the religion of 'Christianity'" either.

No I'm not, I'm going to tell you that you're ripping parts of the bible out of their context to support your point. This line does not mean what you make of it, and I think if you read the entire part you know this as well.

If you're just going to attack my posts with denial and insults, jakko, then you'd better be damn sure that you've got your facts straight - and I mean all the facts, not just the ones that suit your argument.

I did not mean to insult you, but I sometimes have a way of saying things a bit harsher than I mean, but I am quite sure I have my facts straight.
It's pretty hard to have a discussion about the bible with someone who barely read it.

[Edited on 24-5-2004 by Jakko]

I am assuming that the universe is infinite when I say these things:

If the universe is infinite
then there must be an infinite number of stars,
If there are an infinite number of stars, then I could also say
that there are an infinite number of planets also.
If there are an infinite number of planets, I could say that there are an
infinite number of planets capable of supporting life.

So, even if the chances of life starting on a given planet and evolving are infintesimal, that number is still smaller than infinity; thus, there must be
somewhere in the universe some amount of life, on some amount of planets...

That, I believe, is one logical theory on the whole creation thing. As for "God" well, God made the universe, and therefore had a hand in our creation, or prehaps made humans more in his own image than any other animal on earth....

Thanks for the response RR.

Jakko,
Don't waste your time trying to rationally discuss anything with NGITU. Doesn't work. If you look through some of the other threads he posted on you'll quickly find there's nothing of value that his drivel brings to the table. It's like my dad told me many years ago, Oh check your U2U's
CS

[Edited on 5/24/2004 by CommonSense]

Originally posted by NephraTari
My question to you is why do some people feel the need to believe everything was created by an all powerful being?

I believe there must be a creator because matter cannot create matter. That being the case, the only logical assumption is a creator.
CS

Just the fact that we, or anything exists, points to God!

Hey...newb here...still guessing on how to write...well, anyway....as for which is harder to believe in aliens or god?...I'd have to say they both are about equally harder to believe in. for one, there's a lot of stuff in the the universe that suggests a higher intelligence created us and there's kazillions of stars that could allow life ot develop on other planets. i still don't believe in either of them just seems to great a step. yes, i understand there's a lot of evidence for god and for aliens but there isn't any hard fact that proves either of them.

Another real newbie! I've got to go with God here. God I know, personal belief. As far as aliens, I really think they may be the devils work trying to confuse us.

Why stop at the undefined middle. Perhaps some kind of high power is real (god), pure evil I certainly know is real (humanity sometimes) or the devil, and perhaps aliens aswell.

I�m inclined to believe that it would not only be arrogant and narrow minded, but fool hardy not to not believe in the existence of life else where in the universe.

The miracle of life is enough is me to believe that there is something more to existence, something intangible but theres something none the less.

Heres my little ditty, think of all the variables and the possibilities since the beginning of time, 15 billion years, 15 billion years of impossible possibilities to conceive or imagine that lead up to each of us being able to be here today to read these silly post. Than think of how fortunate we all had our micro moment in time to experience the universe(existence) in its beauty and ugliness. Yeah I believe in aliens, and I also believe the there is some kind of design to the universe. But I�m just a little primate on this 3rd planet from an unassuming star in an unassuming part of a galaxy in unassuming universe.

Opus,
Thanks for a thoughtful response to the question.
CS




Welcome Paraclete!

[Edited on 5/24/2004 by CommonSense]

I haven't read through this whole thread so tell me if someone's already said this, but I feel it is harder to believe in Aliens because of society. Everyone tells you must believe in jesus/god or else you're the devil...Honestly, one time I questioned my friend on why he believed in God and he started gettin' pissed at me and saying I'm evil. (Sarcasm)If an ancient book says it, it must be true!(/sarcasm)

Originally posted by Jakko
People may interpret some passages differently, it does not change the main message.

People have interpreted the bible in a thousand different ways over two thousand years - can you really deny the possibility that your interpretation might be wrong?

Originally posted by jakkoSome Christians inflicted their own worldview on others, not Christianity, Christianity is a religion and can not inflict anything, "is that clear"?

On the contrary, I deliberately referred to Christianity as a monlithic entity so as not to offend hypersensitive Christians who take things personally. Christianity - as a religion - can take actions, through it's followers. Saying it can't is akin to saying that United States can't take action, or NASA can't take action.

Originally posted by jakko
Where did you get the idea that the Catholic Church is a good representation of Christians and Christianity?

Well, they see themselves as Christians, and I think it's their opinion that counts in this case. I know you are most happy when you are drawing lines around the core group of "Real Christians", but I thought it, as a religion, was supposed to be about inclusivity?

Originally posted by jakko
Your little "hyperbole" does nothing but underline the cliche that smart people do not believe in God, and dumb people do.
If that was ment as humour then it wasn't really funny.

Well, I don't like to generalise too much, but I'd say that's a reasonable assessment. I said "most", after all, not "all". And as for the humour... well, you can't please all of the people all of the time

Originally posted by jakko
First of all, my "secret evidence" is the story of Jesus as put in the bible.

Ah, yes. Evidence. Or, should I say, evidence.

Originally posted by jakko
This explains your entire view on Christians.
People who did not find God yet are not "stupider" in any way.

Really? And yet you've described non-Christians (myself in particular) as moronic, stupid, idiots and retarded. Is this one of the Christian double-standards which are so prevalent?

Originally posted by jakko
I just see how you have a lot of misconceptions regarding the bible and Christianity, reading the bible would help.

By "misconceptions", I take it you refer to the things I disagree with you about? Why, could this be another example of non-Christians not being as knowledgeable as Christians? And isn't it somewhat dependant on your interpretation being flawless? That's an interesting display of Christian humility...

Originally posted by jakkoI'm going to tell you that you're ripping parts of the bible out of their context to support your point.

Am I? What an unprecedented offence! There are certainly no examples of Christians decontextualising parts of the bible to serve their own ends, are there?

Originally posted by jakkoI did not mean to insult you, but I sometimes have a way of saying things a bit harsher than I mean, but I am quite sure I have my facts straight.
It's pretty hard to have a discussion about the bible with someone who barely read it.

And, just to close off, another subtle hint that I'm stupid. How satisfying. I suppose I should be flattered that I've progressed from having "never" read the bible to having "barely" read it.

This thread is already becoming unwieldy, and we risk getting into an unflattering dogfight. I have never questioned your right to your beliefs, jakko, nor would I deny any other Christian, or any follower of any religion. Not all atheists take the hard-line stance that NOGODS advocated. But Christians shouldn't pick a fight based on evidence and logic, because it's an undefendable position.

pay attention please on the tactics this brainwashed originater of the thread is using !
mormons are instructed same way to do streetwork !
insult the ones who do not believe at all because you call them a hard line atheist and weaken people who don't really have made up their mind !

grow up people and leave these silly kiddystories behind you they unwillingly laid up on you at starting school.
you have been abused mentally !

Are ever going to have anything of value to add. We know you don't believe. Quite frankly, nobody cares!

NOGODS, you don't help your case by making insulting, inflammatory and accusatory posts.

Just because the debate gets hot doesn't mean we have to lose our composure. Let's keep in civilised, shall we?

Follow Kano's advice.

It's quite reasonable to think that there is a creator because of the "observer effect". They have found out that matter or any phenomenon cannot exist physically without there being an observer. A conscious entity.
The wave collapse effect of (non-physical) wave to a particle happens with a conscious entity acting as an agent of some sort. So before there was any matter in existance, there was a conscious entity around.

www.douglashospital.qc.ca...

Bandit
Great post and link I've heard several discussions on this but could never find any documents.

Originally posted by StrangeLands
People have interpreted the bible in a thousand different ways over two thousand years - can you really deny the possibility that your interpretation might be wrong?

I was talking about the main message, not about the thousand different ways people look at stories, additional rules, poems etc.
It's too bad that you don't understand these things automaticly, and that I have to spell it out, it does not make this discussion easyer.

On the contrary, I deliberately referred to Christianity as a monlithic entity so as not to offend hypersensitive Christians who take things personally. Christianity - as a religion - can take actions, through it's followers. Saying it can't is akin to saying that United States can't take action, or NASA can't take action.

Hah, very poor comeback I am afraid.
Once again: a religion does not change its view on anything, some followers of this religion may though.
Pay attention:
The United States is not a religion, and the NASA is not a religion either, at least not last time I checked...

Well, they see themselves as Christians, and I think it's their opinion that counts in this case.

That's quite hilarious, so any idiot that calls himself a Christian is a Christian in your eyes? No wonder your idea of Christians and Christianity got twisted over time.

Well, I don't like to generalise too much, but I'd say that's a reasonable assessment. I said "most", after all, not "all".

Actually you come across as someone who does like to generalise, and in a pretty ignorant way as well.
"i said most not all"
"it was a semi-joke"
Your excuses are very poor.

Really? And yet you've described non-Christians (myself in particular) as moronic, stupid, idiots and retarded. Is this one of the Christian double-standards which are so prevalent?

I think you know better then that, fortunately most Atheists are not as bad as you in making their point. I never called you stupid, an idiot, moronic or retarded, I did however call some of your points retarded, and that is because (surprise) some of your points are pretty retarded.
Just like some Christians can make retarded points sometimes, Atheists can as well!
Don't try to make yourself believe my critism is about your Atheism, it's about your debating skills, or your lack of debating skills actually.

By "misconceptions", I take it you refer to the things I disagree with you about? Why, could this be another example of non-Christians not being as knowledgeable as Christians? And isn't it somewhat dependant on your interpretation being flawless? That's an interesting display of Christian humility...

If you read back, you may discover several issues in the bible that you fail to understand, and that I tried to explain to you. Once again, I don't know everything neither do I pretend to know everything, but I think I know enough to know that you fail to understand a lot of what's in the bible.

Am I? What an unprecedented offence! There are certainly no examples of Christians decontextualising parts of the bible to serve their own ends

Well of course, Christians started with this ignorant behavior, but that does not mean I'm not going to say nothing when you follow their example.

And, just to close off, another subtle hint that I'm stupid. How satisfying. I suppose I should be flattered that I've progressed from having "never" read the bible to having "barely" read it.

You seriously have a very hard time understanding my posts.
It wasn't a subtle hint, it was a pretty clear one. And the hint was not about you being stupid, it's about you rambling about the bible when you barely read or understand it.

Basing your opinion on all those "bible-bashing" websites is probably the easyest way to participate in this discussion, fortunately at least some of us are trying to find out stuff by looking at it ourselves.

[Edited on 25-5-2004 by Jakko]

Bandit ,
Thanks for your post and the link. I had heard that discussed once on a radio show but hadn't been able to find anything on it. This seems to be the place where most people have the biggest problem. This is what I call the "uncaused cause". Actually, St Thomas Aquinas coined the phrase. If you have any other links on it, please post them.
Thanks,
CS

We are told that the Creator made us in His image. Even Christians recognize that God is not an ordinary human. From that standpoint, God would be an "alien" in that he certainly did not come from Earth.

For a scientific explanation, in a few words, check out the webpage, onealclan0.tripod.com...

I believe there must be a creator because matter cannot create matter. That being the case, the only logical assumption is a creator.

well going by that logic then the creator couldnt have just popped into existance and therefore had to have had a "creator" too

unless the creator isnt made of matter , and if this is the case and he is made of some unknown substance then what is to say that this unknown substance didnt create matter without god