Harder To Believe In - God or Aliens?

Originally posted by Warhappy
......There was no god who created man, Man created god........

If there was no god who created man, then where did we come from? If man created god, (an oxymoron in itself) how could he have screwed up soooo bad??

Seriously Warhappy, who created the universe? Who is the "Uncaused Cause"? This is a real question!

Originally posted by CommonSense
After having read many posts on religious conspiracies and aliens, I've noticed a number of things. First of all, we seem to have a large nummber of atheists on ATS. Second, there's a lot of speculation that God is really an alien. Third, many people, atheists included, find it easier to believe all sorts of bizarre stories about aliens yet can't seem to simply believe in God without putting some twist on it.

And that is my question. Why? If God is an alien, then who created him? If there is no God, why do some choose to beleive that the human race was placed on earth by a bunch of reptiles from another galaxy? Who created the reptiles and their galaxy? there is certainly less "evidence" to support that notion than simply believing in God. At least there's the Bible to support that traditional belief.

In any event, I'm looking forward to reading well thought out accounts of the reasons behind many of the beliefs that I question.

Thanks!

I think that there are two basic trains of thought here, firstly if you believe in God then theres no problem with also believing in aliens as the almighty creator may well have created other worlds.

Secondly if you dont belive in God then your creation theory probably revolves around some kind of big bang science. This then follows you believe in the laws of physics, which show that the universe is expanding at the speed of light. Ergo the universe is infinite in size, thats big, if this is the case then there are an infinite number of possible variations on life. So aliens would be possible within this theory also. Infact if the options are infinite then somewhere there is another me who is much richer and has a bigger yahoo. Lucky twat

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Smudge]

My own thoughts on this subject....*blank look* LOL

Kidding..

I often have wondered why people find a conflict with science and religion anyways. To me, and the way I observe things, as we expand our scientific knowlege, our own conciousness expands too. So maybe, just maybe...God is so highly advanced that the technology seems well...godly....and surely, such a being would stretch into all realms of existence, physical, and alternate realms of reality as well....where am I going with this? I think I am lost...LOL

I dont think aliens are angels, although maybe they want us to think they are. A being as advanced as the creator doesnt need a ship, can just blip in and out...or at least minions could...its all rather mind boggling

Originally posted by Darkblade71
I often have wondered why people find a conflict with science and religion anyways.

I do not see how these two can really conflict either. Well, science proves how things are laid out and run. There will never be a way for us to find out if God is real or not. (anyway, where did God come from? how did he come into existance?) But, these will never be answered unless we found a missing page from the Bible that said (Per Red Dwarf) "To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental. "

But, seriously, even if there are aliens, it should not alter ones perception of of the existance of a God.

I think that neither are harder to believe in. Until we get proof of the existance or non-existance of either, they are on the same mystery scale.

If I remember right, Arthur C Clarke addressed this sort of.
'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.'

Perhaps the same could be said of the gods and ETIs.

Any sufficiently advanced lifefrom is indistinguishable from god.

just my 2�.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Crysstaafur]

CommonSense,
I believe that the God/s we have come to know are alien species because, an almighty being, such as "God" (whom most people believe in), has never shown his ass to anyone. There is no evidence, no tangible proof that he has, or will ever, interact with us. Everything written in the bible, torah, etc... Its all hearsay. Anyone who claims to have spoken with "God," BS. Why? What makes them so special that "God" would give them the time of day (why would "God" give someone like Bush the time of day - oh wait, religious people eat that stuff up, its good for getting elected, and being re-elected)? Think about it.

Now, in the ancient texts, why would "God" never show his true form? Why was his identity always hidden? What does "God" have to hide. An alien species on the other hand, claiming to be "God/s" would have much to hide, especially if they have ulterior motives.

If I were to go to another planet, which has primitive lifeforms, and I'm a greedy sob (who has needs), I'm definately going to say I'm "almighty," I am a God! Hell, we've seen this type of stuff perpetrated by our fellow humans against other humans. Take Francisco Pizarro and the Incans as an example.

With only 183 men, they would conquer a sophisticated empire of several million people, a feat that has never been equaled - and it probably never will be. He was taken to be a returning God by the natives, when he and a few others landed near Panama in 1527 because there was rumors of gold. To keep the story short, he saw gold, and he wanted it. So, he went back to Spain, got 183 men, and went back. He landed in Ecuador in 1531 and started to march inland. He and his men killed people here and there and then were finally introduced to Incan royalty.

Atahualpa, the Incan ruler, told his people not to harm them, because he was impressed by their beards and white skin. He believed that they were fulfilling a prophecy about the return of Viracocha, a legendary bearded prophet from a far away land who had visited the South American peoples many hundreds of years before.

Native Americans (most) have no facial hair. The first Incas are said to have had reddish-brown hair and beards, like Viracocha. Because of this, Atahualpa believed that the Spanish were Incas themselves - Sons of the Sun - gods in their own right, just as he, Atahualpa, was a god.

So, the Incans showered the Spaniards with gifts. The gifts weren't enough. Pizarro wanted it all. With that, they looked for a chance to take over everything. They got an audience with Atahualpa. They told him about the "one true faith" and talked about the Pope and King Charles of Spain. Atahualpa asked for the source (they were using a translator), they gave him a bible. He put it up to his ear, heard nothing, then threw the book to the ground.

This is just the gesture they had been waiting for, and with that, the spaniards attacked in full force. And because the Incans had been told to not do anything, no matter what (most were killed while trying to escape), almost 30,000 of them were taken out in no time at all. 160 of the 183 men were left standing. And with that, they took Atahualpa captive and started their conquest of riches and gold. All that death just for greed and self-interest and to feed the Church's and King's large piggy banks - oh, and for "God" (what does God need money for?). Anyways, that was a very abbreviated version of the events that occurred.

Now, whats interesting is that the Incans have no records of having built most of "their" amazing structures - and most of them do not figure in any of their legends. The Incans had said that they were there when they got there. And yet, most people are brought up to believe that they built them. The same can be said for most other ancient peoples - the buildings that we are told they built, were actually there when those people arrived, they just claimed ownership since the original builders weren't there anymore.

And ancient people are known for drawing what they see. So, why is it most of what they draw always seems to have "alien" creatures mixed in with the humans and animals of this planet?

Anyways, that probably won't answer your question, lol. But, its sort of what I believe in.

"My" "almighty being" might or might not be the "creator" of all things. Man created "God." Simply put, if we hadn't of thought him up, or should I say, were "introduced" to he/she/it, would we have even considered there being a "creator" of all things?

Maybe this "almighty being" that I speak of has always existed (somehow) and somehow he/she/it managed to create this massive universe for one reason or another (or maybe he/she/it didn't, and is really just a "moderator"). Doe the ability to create a universe make something all powerful? Sure.

Where does such power come from though? How can something just be? How can there be something without nothing? How can something exist without a cause and effect?

I guess its best not to constantly think of those questions because it can make one go mad. "God" is more of a comfort thing than anything else - as well as a control mechanism for the mostly naive populace.

Maybe all the "almighty being" is is just a collective consciousness of all the living creatures in the universe. Maybe that is all that "God" really is. Ever heard of the saying, "If you wish hard enough, it might just come true?" Multiply that by billions of the same wishes.

I am not looking for the "almighty being" to control us. When I said influence, I meant that he/she/it should at least make their presence known to us every once in a while, in some shape or form. Maybe just to remind us that we aren't the only things here.

I still think if we were created by one being, it was for he/she/it's amusement.



[Edited on 5-15-2004 by EmbryonicEssence]

I'd like to clear something up for the thread starter.

The god in some stories of the bible is believed to actually be an alien by alot of people here. Because people back then wouldn't know what was what. That dosn't mean people here think god is really an alien. They just think that god in some stories, was mistaken to be god, when it actually wasn't.

So with that, I believe there could be a god, and I do belive there are aliens, but I dont belive god is an alien, I however do belive aliens were mistaken as god way back when.

I believe in the possibility of a God and I believe in the possibility of aliens. I have a hard time mixing them up though and I find the people that do tend to grasp at anything to fulfill their sense of belonging. Many are just living in sci-fi fantasies they create in order to avoid their ultimately banal lives.

Originally posted by AnonymousPoster4
I'd like to clear something up for the thread starter.

The god in some stories of the bible is believed to actually be an alien by alot of people here. Because people back then wouldn't know what was what. That dosn't mean people here think god is really an alien. They just think that god in some stories, was mistaken to be god, when it actually wasn't.

So with that, I believe there could be a god, and I do belive there are aliens, but I dont belive god is an alien, I however do belive aliens were mistaken as god way back when.

Very good point. You explained it better (and shorter) then I ever could have. Sometimes a few words can explain what a hundred words could not.

Sometimes I get into too much detail, lol (I'm working on cutting detail down to a minimum). :-D

Something popped up in my mind, you remember long before our time our history 2000++ years (the GOD time) on that time people didn�t have the definition Alien, or UFO , so they used the word GOD instead...

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
But, seriously, even if there are aliens, it should not alter ones perception of of the existance of a God.

This is exactly what I'm trying to get at. Some believe that we were placed here by aliens and at the same time don't believe in a supreme creator. This si the inconsistency I'm getting at. Who created the aliens these people believe in and why it it easier for them to believe in aliens rather than God?

Originally posted by AnonymousPoster4
The god in some stories of the bible is believed to actually be an alien by alot of people here.

This is exactly why I started this thread. Why do some find it easier to beleive in aliens rather than God. Remember the Bible is said to be the inspired Word of God.

Reluctant as I am to join this fracas - and as much as I *know* I'm going to regret it - here's my POV:

The existence of extraterrestrial life is a logical deduction based on our knowledge of the universe. An omnipotent, omniscient deity is unlikely - even ridiculous - based on our knowledge of the universe. "God" is merely a neat synonym for "Unknown" - and as we progress, God gets smaller and less important. Aliens, on the other hand, become increasingly likely as we explore our surroundings.

And finally, I reject the existence of God for one reason more than any other: if He ever did exist, He is demonstrably capricious, sadistic and should clearly be sedated and locked up. How can people believe in a deity who breaks most of the strictures and rules of behaviour that His fanclub applauds? Or is it a case of "one rule for us, another rule for Him"? The suffering, the agonies, the injustices - God has a Hell of a lot to answer for.

Pun very much intended.

C'mon, people, we're in the vanguard of a new century, on the brink of technological revolutions which will change the nature of human life forever! Why are we still clutching at shiny rocks and omens for comfort?

Originally posted by Preest
I believe in the possibility of a God and I believe in the possibility of aliens. I have a hard time mixing them up though and I find the people that do tend to grasp at anything to fulfill their sense of belonging. Many are just living in sci-fi fantasies they create in order to avoid their ultimately banal lives.

You always talk about someone belonging, let me tell you something, people are afraid of aliens.It is not fun to be a part of something as terrible as aliens.People lose careesrs, credibility, and the books they come out with barely pay there bills, you talk out of the side of your mouth!Believing in things like aliens being the creator make sense, but may not be fact.But you accusing everyone of being part of something that they think makes them cool is an outright lie!If you could see that, you might actually get some info in that little tight a$$ instead of Bangkok.

Originally posted by CommonSense

Originally posted by AnonymousPoster4
The god in some stories of the bible is believed to actually be an alien by alot of people here.

This is exactly why I started this thread. Why do some find it easier to beleive in aliens rather than God. Remember the Bible is said to be the inspired Word of God.

For me, it's ironically your screen name...........common sense. And it's not that they/we belive in aliens, and not god, we believe the two were confused.


Show two people an ink blot, and they might see two different things.

Originally posted by StrangeLands
God gets smaller and less important. Aliens, on the other hand, become increasingly likely as we explore our surroundings.

StrangeLands,
Thanks for a concise and unambiguous reply.

A couple of followup questions for you. Where did we come from? What's the basis for saying aliens become increasingly likely as we explore our surroundings?
CS

Right on Common Sense!

For those agnostics out there... let's not use the name God (as that usually denotes obligation and most people can't handle that!)... let's call it "Infinite Field of Energy.

This universe runs on the law of cause and effect. If something is created, it had to have been created by something... otherwise it would be outside of the realm of reality - or infinite.

Like Common Sense wrote, even if aliens created the universe, something must've created the aliens and so on... until you get to the first molecule, the first quark, etc.

Just like when we see a painting, we automatically assume someone created the painting (although there is a very small chance of it happening by chance). When we take a look at the human hand, the ocean, the earth and the universe, it clearly denotes "Designer".

Even for those of you who are evolutionists... if you read Darwin correctly, you'd see that a)Darwin admits major flaws in the theory 2)most scientists today admit it has flaws 3) even if evolution occured... at least within each individual species vs. from fish to monkey to human, that doesn't mean that there is no God or "Creator"

Something to chew on?

CyberRav,
Thanks for the reply. This is the kind of reply I'm really interested in. Something beyond the superficial.

I believe the creation of the universe, us, and if there is a "God" is beyond human understanding. Nothing in todays technology will ever answer those questions because of this. I don't disagree with anyone on this thread for the simple fact no one really knows the truth. For the people who have faith in "God" good for them but the proof I have read in books and on the internet is just to great against it. There may be a god but I dont believe any current religion has the facts right.

I only hope before my time is up that I do learn the truth of our existance and of everything else in our universe.

Originally posted by CommonSense
A couple of followup questions for you. Where did we come from? What's the basis for saying aliens become increasingly likely as we explore our surroundings?

I'll tackle those in reverse order, if you'll indulge me, but I'd first like to apologise for any needlessly antagonistic phrasing in my previous post. I *must* stop writing under the influence of caffiene...

As we learn more and more about the universe, alien life looks less like a possibility and more like a cast-iron certainty. We have discovered in our surveys of this planet that life exists in almost unimaginable conditions - from volcanic vents on the ocean floor, to the summits of the highest mountains, to the hellish infernos of the deepest deserts. Life will always - *always* - find an exploitable niche. Combine this with our discoveries that other stars in our galaxy have families of planets, some of which may well be Earthlike, and we see that for life to be unique to this world would be... well, it would be unimaginable.

And wherever life exists, sentience will inevitably arise. It's possible, though unlikely, that we are the only sentient species in our galaxy at the present time, but others will follow after (or have gone before!).

Indirectly, this also answers your first question. Despite CyberRav's somewhat metaphysical invocation of an Infinite Field of Energy, the spontaneous development of life is described by highly plausible theories. Life is chemical in nature, not spiritual or miraculous. Sentience and consciousness, I agree, seem to defy a starkly scientific rationale according to our *current* knowledge base, but I have no doubt that we will unfold these mysteries in the years to come.

There is nothing - *nothing* - found in the universe which requires the intervention of a creator. I'm the first to admit that our understanding is imperfect, or at least incomplete, but that doesn't mean that we, in our arrogance, our vanity and our sickening ignorance, must turn to a mysterious and omnipotent being. There isn't a single particle of evidence of God's existence which withstands even cursory scrutiny.

Given these facts, these fundamental truths, God becomes not only less likely, but irrelevant. At the same time, alien life becomes not only more likely, but inevitable. I do not deny spirituality, I do not deny a moral and philosophical need in every human being - but I deny a farcical definiton of a living God who called the universe into being in an arbitrary and random way, but saw fit to underpin it all with scientific laws and principles which function elegantly, perfectly, and *without His interference*. What, I ask you, is more likely - that He created a universe which didn't need Him, or that He doesn't exist at all?

I look at the universe, and I see beauty. I see wonderous infinity. I see awesome power and unimaginable splendour. But I do not see, anywhere, the face of God.