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Harder To Believe In - God or Aliens?

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posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by Sinobyte
When you look at the world not for it's negative but for it's positive, you'll see the acts of "God" everywhere you look. The birth of a baby, the blossoming of a rare flower, the migration of birds. We see natural wonders and mysteries all the time that can be attributed to the works of God. Volcano's included.


I guess its all in what YOU see. I dont see a baby being born a blessing, The state of this world, Why would you bring a child into it.? Everything is chaos, pattern emarge out of chaos.




posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 11:24 AM
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I am a christian and im not a christiancoz of my faith or belief, yes ok they part of it, but it is because i have a relationship with the person i belief in, guiding the steps in my life, and being there when i need him, the problem is we cant believe in things we cant touch or see. Do i believe if there aliens , neither, i dont know so cant say, they might exist, our minds are limited and we cant understand everything that exist or happens. Our minds go tilt when it reaches the limit of our understanding. Darwins theory has more holes than anyone can imagine and this comes from someone that was a staunch atheist that found the idea of religion ridicolous till i saw the light.



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 10:51 PM
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Originally posted by StrangeLands

Originally posted by TheBorg
Maybe he saw into the future, and saw that something they'd do would endanger the lives of countless millions of people, so he let that person die now to prevent it.


At any given moment, there are suffering men, women and children in hospital beds all around the world who are fervently and piously praying for deliverance from their illness. Not one in a million will be "miraculously" cured. Are you really suggesting that the other 999,999 are all proto-Hitlers and God wants them dead?

Congratulations, Borg. Despite stiff competition, you've just posted the worst defense of Christianity I've ever read, and I'm sure that some of the other theist contributors to this thread would like to distance themselves from that last remark.



And I think our sitting here trying to dictate how God SHOULD act is kind of stupid. Who are WE to TELL God how to act?


I just think it's curious that Christianity is all about love and forgiveness, when, according to your theories, God is being a random bastard and misunderstanding, ignoring or deliberately harming those who pray to Him. Does that really sound like someone who should be worshipped?

If you are right, then God is not worthy of your adoration, Borg. Perhaps it's time you reconsidered your position.


First off, no I'm not saying that those 999,999 people you speak of are anything BUT people. All I gave was a suggestion. There you go again, taking my quotes out of context, and dragging things to an extreme. You have no grasp of who God is, let alone what he's up to. Don't you DARE proclaim to say something about a God that you know NOTHING about!!

And as for that comment about my making the worst defense of Christianity, you really should think before you speak. I was speaking in general terms about a hypothetical situation, so don't take that to be anything but what it was intended to be; another hypothetical.

And why do you immediately think that was a bad possiblity? Lets say it happens. People pray for help, and don't appear to find it. Does that mean that God's not listening? No, not at all. All it means is that he has different plans than we do.

God sees EVERYTHING, and makes decisions based on what he sees that affect everyone on Earth. I liken it to a military General on the battlefield. He sees that several companies are in desperate need of help, but cannot help them because if he did, he'd lose something much worse than those people. It's called an "acceptable loss". Even though the troops are begging, or in this case praying for help from the one calling the shots, they may or may not actually get it. Does that make some sense?

Furthermore, I'm not calling God any of those things that you mentioned. I think he's doing what he needs to do when he needs to do it, and I think that things happen that we don't understand because they are necessary to accomplish what God wants to accomplish. Call it blind faith if you will, but I see God in a way that few do, and that gives me the comfort in knowing that it doesn't matter one way or the other; he's in control.

[edit on 9-6-2004 by TheBorg]



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 11:02 PM
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Sinobyte:

Are you sure that you're not a sheep in wolf's clothing? Because that remark about the wonders of God sounded like something that a Christian might say. And for a self-proclaimed Satanist to say such a thing makes me wonder if you truly feel the way that you claim you do.



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 11:28 PM
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A sheep in wolves clothing? Is that like an anti-hero? LOL...Being a Satanist doesn't mean I deny the existence of God, sacrifice defenseless animals, abuse small children or drink bodily fluids. Being a Satanist doesn't mean I cannot recognize beauty in the world and nature. I just don't believe in God in the same manner organized religion does...I believe God is beyond our description. God is good and evil and everything in the middle. Too many religions and faiths make assumptions of God based on what they'd prefer to believe and then translate scripture for their own ends to back those beliefs. I reject that. I embrace my good and my evil. Don't believe everything you read about Satanists.



[edit on 6/9/2004 by Sinobyte]



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by Sinobyte

A sheep in wolves clothing? Is that like an anti-hero? LOL...Being a Satanist doesn't mean I deny the existence of God, sacrifice defenseless animals, abuse small children or drink bodily fluids. Being a Satanist doesn't mean I cannot recognize beauty in the world and nature. I just don't believe in God in the same manner organized religion does...I believe God is beyond our description. God is good and evil and everything in the middle. Too many religions and faiths make assumptions of God based on what they'd prefer to believe and then translate scripture for their own ends to back those beliefs. I reject that. I embrace my good and my evil. Don't believe everything you read about Satanists.



[edit on 6/9/2004 by Sinobyte]


In many respects, Sinobyte, I think we are very similar. Like you, I quickly got tired of the 'mainstream' excuses for things that happened, and the ways that they'd use texts to support their own whims, when in fact, they were misusing the text.

What I'm trying to figure out is why you claim to be a Satanist, yet sound so much like a Christian. I mean, I think much the same way as you, but I still believe in Jesus Christ. Personal aside: I believe that the main point of the Bible was to say that God IS, and that everything else has been taken care of. All we have to do is believe in Jesus, and that's it.

The rest, I think, are semantics that one denomination uses to flick at everyone else that isn't like them, in the hopes that the 'heathens' will feel so ridiculed by them that they convert to their teachings. It's a never-ending struggle for religious supremacy, even though the people that claim to be the biggest believers are actually stabbing potential converts in the back and pushing them away. Now that's not to say that ALL denominations do this, but of the ones I've seen, they do.

I guess though that what makes you a Satanist is that, deep down, you feel that Satan will win. That's your choice, and I hope that works for you. Just remember who gave you that freedom of choice. Peace.



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 01:53 AM
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Sinobyte: I know it must sound like I'm questioning your beliefs, which to some degree I am, but I just can't seem to grasp how a Satanist could be so much like me, a devout Christian.

To be brief, I just wanted to let you know that I'm not at all trying to be critical; I'm just curious about how a Satanist could be so into doing good, or at least appearing to like doing good. Maybe my image of a Satanist is all wrong.


Crap. I hate making generalizations about people. I can't believe I did that... stupid me.



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 02:16 AM
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Originally posted by TheBorg
All I gave was a suggestion. There you go again, taking my quotes out of context, and dragging things to an extreme. You have no grasp of who God is, let alone what he's up to. Don't you DARE proclaim to say something about a God that you know NOTHING about!!


When will I learn? There are, it seems, two types of Christians - the rational, interesting ones who are capable of debating the topic in a friendly, sane manner. These are quite rare, but they are out there, trust me.

On the other hand, there are the nuts who cry "context" and accuse you of ignorance whenever you contest their small-minded irrational view.

*sigh*

Jakko, looks like you've got a padawan of your own.

Any time you'd like to actually answer the meat of my argument instead of just crying "unfair", Borg, feel free. I'll be here.



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 03:16 AM
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Ok, Strangelands, let me see if I can put it into 'context' without going AWOL. I get a little touchy when people blaspheme my God like that.

Anyway, what I gleaned from your argument was that you pretty much called God a cold, heartless bastard for letting people die like he does. To be totally honest, I really don't think that God interferes with us much because he wants to see if we'll remain faithful, regardless of all else. Plus, since he did all of this for his own good pleasure, I think he's interested to see how it all turns out without his interference, for the most part.

But why doesn't he come to the aid of those people that are begging for him? I don't have an answer for that. Does that mean that God doesn't exist? No, it simply means that we lack the understanding to see what he plans for us. Does that mean that he doesn't comfort them in ways that we never see? No. In fact, that's how I think it actually happens. We never see what happens to them spiritually right before they die, because their bodies are fighting so much for survival.

Does that mean that God is a cold, heartless bastard? No, it most likely means that he isn't interested in interfering with us because he wants to see how his experiment will play out. Why does he appear to help some and not others? I think that happens to remind us that he is, in fact, there.

Now, I can be wrong, just as anyone can, so I'm not gonna say that I know this to be the case when in fact I don't know any such thing. I'm just suggesting alternatives to the one given to me by you.

If I got any part of your argument wrong, or didn't glean what I was supposed to from it, please inform me. I'll gladly respond.



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 03:44 AM
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Thanks, Borg. A very interesting reply. I would like to apologise if I offended you unduly.

My statement regarding God's lack of compassion was based entirely on the original premise you posted - that God hears the prayers but chooses not to aid 99.99% of the people who call on Him.

My point was that if you were correct, then logically God is heartless. If you don't believethat he is, then you must, logically, reconsider your position on the power of prayer. If God hears all and sees all and still doesn't intervene, then that, to me, does indicate a callous nature.

And I see nothing wrong with admitting you don't know. I don't understand how prayer works - "positive thought" is the term I prefer - but I have empirical evidence that it can. I don't think that is anything to do with God, but I can't refute your position one hundred percent.

I could accept your statement about God not wanting to intervene in people's lives, but what is your position on the reported cases where prayer has had a "divine" response? Has God really intervened in those few, random cases, or does the power of prayer really have nothing to do with Him Upstairs?



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 03:51 AM
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I think it harder to believe this thread has gotten 330 replies. Heehee.



Nutzo



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 07:59 AM
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Damn it, nutzo, we're going for the record!

Now quick, post something unfounded and inflammatory, and we'll all go down in ATS history!



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by TheBorg
What I'm trying to figure out is why you claim to be a Satanist, yet sound so much like a Christian. I mean, I think much the same way as you, but I still believe in Jesus Christ.

I guess though that what makes you a Satanist is that, deep down, you feel that Satan will win. That's your choice, and I hope that works for you. Just remember who gave you that freedom of choice. Peace.

I "sound" like a Christian because most peoples preconceived notions of Satanists are vile, reprehensible, anarchists bent on raping and destroying. I do not reject God...many Satanists don't. We reject religion and religious man and their supression of human desires and instinct.

Contrary to what you've heard...MOST Satanists do not believe "Satan will win" because we do not believe in an entity named "satan". I do not worship the devil.


Originally posted by TheBorg
Sinobyte: I know it must sound like I'm questioning your beliefs, which to some degree I am, but I just can't seem to grasp how a Satanist could be so much like me, a devout Christian.

To be brief, I just wanted to let you know that I'm not at all trying to be critical; I'm just curious about how a Satanist could be so into doing good, or at least appearing to like doing good. Maybe my image of a Satanist is all wrong.

Crap. I hate making generalizations about people. I can't believe I did that... stupid me.

Generally people believe Satanists are strange, bitter, social outcasts who enjoy small animal sacrifice, child abuse and calling forth demons which is pretty far from the reality of Satanism. Fact of the matter is...those long haired heavy metal psycho's who burn churches and kill animals and draw demonic symbols on their bodies are nothing more than "heretical christians". Christian kids rebelling against their Christian upbringing, bent on offending the God they have come to equate with their parents inability to connect with them.

Don't get me wrong...I am out for self. I come first in my life. I fully accept, though, that with the "good" comes the "evil". Being able to embrace both sides of my nature allows me to be a great person when I want to an a venomous, arrogant jerkoff when I feel like being "evil". I, unlike Christians, do not reject and try to surpress my "evil" human nature...when I want to have sex...I have it...I get drunk when I party (don't smoke weed), I fight when I get angry, I hug when I'm happy. Being a Satanist is to be a passionate person without the guilt of a religious control device like "sin". Don't think for a second I won't stop and pick a flower or a kitten out of a busy road. In the same sense...don't think for a second I won't point out what I feel is stupid, grab a dancing g-string in a club or throw blows with somebody in my face. I am everything Christianity and many other religions try to erase from their human nature. Their birthright.

I don't conjure demons but I can make the biggest damn jager bomb this side of chicago disappear...it's magic!



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by Warhappy
The subject of God has been on many a Ats threads but frankly iam tired of This "God". There was no god who created man, Man created god
. now to the question of other life in the universe yea itz true! the fact is that even if there was other civilizations they would be to far away to even reach us. There is probably a aliean on another planet asking this very question about a god and the answer is no there isnt a god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you Warhappy.....of course man created God.....we hunted and gathered taking up all our time......we learned to farm so we had stockpiles for the cold season......now we had free time...what do you do with free time....you wonder about things......I wonder what fire would feel like hmmmm.....I wonder what makes the sun move.......hey I wonder how we got here....ponder ponder ponder...hey let's write a really cool book and just make up a bunch of stuff to cover it all........



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 12:16 PM
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Sorry echosounder and warhappy, but that doesn't make any sense at all.... So you're saying that virtually all cultures that existed made up stuff like that???



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by TheBorg

Anyway, what I gleaned from your argument was that you pretty much called God a cold, heartless bastard for letting people die like he does. To be totally honest, I really don't think that God interferes with us much because he wants to see if we'll remain faithful, regardless of all else. Plus, since he did all of this for his own good pleasure, I think he's interested to see how it all turns out without his interference, for the most part.

But why doesn't he come to the aid of those people that are begging for him? I don't have an answer for that. Does that mean that God doesn't exist? No, it simply means that we lack the understanding to see what he plans for us. Does that mean that he doesn't comfort them in ways that we never see? No. In fact, that's how I think it actually happens. We never see what happens to them spiritually right before they die, because their bodies are fighting so much for survival.

Does that mean that God is a cold, heartless bastard? No, it most likely means that he isn't interested in interfering with us because he wants to see how his experiment will play out. Why does he appear to help some and not others? I think that happens to remind us that he is, in fact, there.

Now, I can be wrong, just as anyone can, so I'm not gonna say that I know this to be the case when in fact I don't know any such thing. I'm just suggesting alternatives to the one given to me by you.

If I got any part of your argument wrong, or didn't glean what I was supposed to from it, please inform me. I'll gladly respond.



Did God leave on us, or did we leave on God?

I think we left Him, we 'killed' christ, which in my eyes looks like saying no to God, we don't need you. Christ told us how to live God, we said no, we'll do it our way, the ego took control. Letting your ego take control, is hurting yourself through being addicted to things of the material plane, it has features like seduction, greed, attachment to things, but it does not bring you happiness, only temporary joy. Remove the things the ego needs, and the ego is hurt.

That's why there is so much pain in the world, the devil is the ruler, the ego rules the earth, not the God consciousness.

We left God, He's just waiting 'till we take His consciousness back in our temples, that is, our body.

?



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
Sorry echosounder and warhappy, but that doesn't make any sense at all.... So you're saying that virtually all cultures that existed made up stuff like that???


Sure thing Bandit. It's easy to do, just like all the leaps we take on here trying to find hidden meaning in everything, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But we all (at ATS) spend hours deconstructing every tiny little lead we get on a story, bona fide or otherwise, does it not stand to reason that some of the great thinkers through history could manage to fabricate something like the life and death of Jesus. Especially considering the fact that history was not yet really written. I mean they had the greatest opportunity of all, why not sieze it.
I admit there are some similarities between faiths but in the end the deities all have a human form which is a testament (no pun intended) to our lack of imagination.
If you simply beleive in the bible then why not in Zeus, Neptune and Appollo too.

Don't get me wrong I am actually a little jealous of people who have a deep faith in whatever religion they choose, not fanatical faith but something that they turn to in times of trouble.

[edit on 10-6-2004 by echosounder]



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 01:45 PM
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And how do you explain the similarities that are popping up between some of the old religions and current science??? The vedics for exapmle, claimed that the world around us is in reality a sort of illusion, something which is acknowledged by the holographic theory by David Bohm. Or that certain religions (including some of early christianity, for example the Gospel of Thomas) claiming that everything is a part of God and that God is within and around everything... Something which is now actually supported by science???

Let me just bring up an old thread...


Ancient Wisdom



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 02:04 PM
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Let me just bring up an old thread...


Ancient Wisdom


Very nicely done Bandit (I have yet to read it all but I have an inkling of the jist) you kick @ss.

I can't begin to explain away all the similarities but will say that I think knowledge like the weather is cyclical only on a time frame that lasts much longer than we do as individuals.
Perhaps ancient knowledge was as advanced as ours only without the technology....in modern science everything is quantitive and measureable we tend only to beleive in the results proven after testing a hypothesis.
I think ancient knowledge would have been more intuitive perhaps.
I must admit that you have guided me nicely down a different path of investigation, thank you.



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 04:00 PM
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when you say atheist, please try not to sterotype please. In my opinion, "atheists" are just people who think for themselves. All we are doing is saying we dont believe in a certain thing. (I am just stating my opinion, I am not sure the actual deffinition) As to if god or aliens are more plausable, I would say Aliens. I have been doing a lot of thinking lately about that, and I really think that religion is a sort of way to be controlled. I may not be right, thats not what I'm saying, I just think that if God was real, then how are there soo many rligions? Why is it that CHristians think you have to say a prayer to be saved? what about the people in the world that dont even know about christianity? I dunno just my opinion.



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