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You Have No Idea What Health Care Costs

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posted on Sep, 19 2009 @ 11:25 PM

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by HunkaHunka
You should probably change your "tag line:" "Be your own God."

You seem to be in favor of giving insurance companies and government more and more of our money and control of our lives. No one can "be your own God" if they're willing to let someone else be in charge.

As long as you are using doctors... you will never be in charge of your healthcare. I don't care who finances it.

Most people that NEITHER government nor insurance has to be in charge of their healthcare.

People scream about "profit" and bonuses, but expect to "profit" for their 40 hours, and maybe even get a bonus at Christmas. Shouldn't doctors and nurses get paid? Clinincs?

OF COURSE! But that's where the profit should end... no one should profit from financing our healthcare...

Did you see this video?

posted on Sep, 19 2009 @ 11:59 PM
reply to post by HunkaHunka
Just as you can choose grocers and mechanics, you can choose doctors. You make the choice of store, brand, or repair parts. You choose an "expert" (like doctors) to use their training and experience for the things you can't do yourself.

Do you want some bureaucrat making that choice for you?

Insurance AND government limit the choice.

I am not an advocate of insurance, but even if I was your video neglects the flagrant waste, fraud and mismanagement of government-run socialized medicine. Part of the difference in "administrative costs" is that insurance companies' "owners" (i.e., shareholders) will not allow such. Government program "owners" (i.e., taxpayers) don't care, or don't care to know; it's not "their money" (or so they think).

How do you explain social security, medicare and medicaid taking the largest part of the federal budget, running at deficits that are paid for by stealing from other pools of money like the government-guaranteed pension funds and current account? Multi-million dollar frauds are exposed regularly, almost weekly.
(That never-empty pot of "government money" in the video is kept full by stealing from other programs!)

How do you explain a mail service that cuts service and raises costs and STILL loses money? Or a railservice that has to be bailed out by Congress over and over, but still can't run on time, repair infrastructure, and can't compete with other carriers? How about bank and insurance regulatory agencies that permit their industries to lose trillions of dollars then bail them out with our money? An immigration and border service that permits illegal aliens to pour into the country?

(Of course, all this ignores some of the largest health insurers in the country, the NON-PROFIT Blue-Cross/Blue-Shield programs. Or did you know that?)

You know that "special interest" groups have already been given subsidies, exemptions and exceptions to Obamacare to buy their support, right? (The high-end policy excise tax exemption, for example.) The special interests are ALREADY getting favorable treatment that the general public can't get, and it isn't even in force yet!

You really have no idea.


[edit on 20-9-2009 by jdub297]

posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 12:25 AM
Actually the idea that private industry works more efficiently than government has been disproved many times. Latest research into comparative jobs held by private employees vs government employees performing the same function found government employees more effective across several fields.

I have no problem with profit in and of itsself. Its CORPORATE profit that is a problem, where the focus is on doing the least amount of work for the most amount of money, and profit is the primary focus, inforced by law, whereas the wellbeing of the customer is a far secondary concern.

Further, health freedom is limited greatly by the current private system. You are ONLY allowed by almost all carriers, to receive the approved western medicine pharmeceutical cure for your disease. No natural, herbal, vitamin, or alternative medicine is allowed under the majority of carriers. How much health freedom is that?

posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 01:02 AM
reply to post by pexx421

Take a guess at how much profit the insurance companies earn?


posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 01:05 AM
reply to post by pexx421
Are you unable to understand what you read? Or do you just not read?

I do not advocate private OR public insurance.

I advocate giving citizens control over their own earnings to shop for health care. We did it very efficiently before government stepped in to disrupt the vendor-client relationship.

Government intervention, beginning in the '40s, has worked to eliminate the individual from the health care transaction, and to subsidize insurance and public control.

You seem primed to focus on corporate profits and insurance costs, while ignoring the role of government in distorting the market. There is nothing wrong with profit, individual or corporate, except in socialist and marxist ideology.

If you were serious about your position, you'd explain how insurance companies' profits (avg. 3 to 6% margin) are unconscionable compared to other industries (up to 40% margin) or many small businesses (up to 60+% margin), especially businesses favored and subsidized by the government (housing development, government recruiting and procurement, revitalization).

Government workers more productive than private? You've got to be kidding. If that was even close to true, there'd be no need for "privatization" of so many government functions. Referring to "some study" is worthless.

You ARE a marxist, aren't you?


posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 01:17 AM
Well, in our system, $.30 of each healthcare dollar goes to insurance, whereas in the medicare/medicaide system its only $.07 of each dollar that goes to administrative costs. Thats a huge difference.

posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 04:01 AM

Originally posted by jdub297
There is nothing wrong with profit, individual or corporate, except in socialist and marxist ideology.

Conversing, or attempting to, with some Americans is really odd because they have this weird indoctrination thing where any questioning of the profit motive means socialism=Marxism=EVIL.

And of course, there's no way for them to see that their commitment to capitalism has, itself, ideological roots.

If you simply cannot see that the single-minded pursuit of profit causes a great deal of harm in the world, then you are surely wearing ideological blinkers that prevent you from perceiving reality accurately.

The UK got subjected to this kind of propaganda during the Thatcher years: we were promised all sorts of wonderful efficiencies and better choices: what we got was RIPPED OFF.

The privatisation of our rail system, for example, is an absolute disaster. Likewise the privatisation of our gas and electricity utilities. I worked for power companies both pre- and post-nationalisation. All the powr companies now have to run entire departments to cope with people changing back and forth between them every time there's a tariff change, which is about every month. People are trying to save money, but the cost of dealing with this so-called "freedom" drives up the price.

If you run a profit system then the weakest will be denied health coverage. There's a saying, with which I agree, that the mark of a civilisation is how it treats its weakest citizens.

But the bottom line is, I don't see the people who complain about a "socialised" health care system getting upset about the billions that the government has simply pissed upt the wall in two wars to secure oil. That's certainly not seen as a waste of money.

It's a strange set of priorities.

[edit on 20-9-2009 by rich23]

posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 04:51 AM
reply to post by jdub297

Good god man, listen to all you on and on and on and on about the most pointless stuff.

If you are ill you don't care about funding or provider you JUST WANT TO BE BETTER.

I hope Obama passes this bill and those against it shut up.

Going to the far end of a far in this way is laughable.

posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 07:48 AM
reply to post by phoenix103
Perhaps if you read the OP before blathering nonsense your reply would make more sense.

Some people complain about insurance costs and profits.
Some complain about government costs (taxes) and subsidies/waste/mismanagement ("profits").

Most people do not really know the true amount of "costs" under either health care regime.

When people take the time to learn what the individual and societal costs (and the drivers of those costs) are for health care, they can more thoughtfully assess the relative benefits of the different regimes.

The quality of the posts here and elsewhere make it pretty clear that many do not or cannot make this simple inquiry.

How sad.

Deny ignorance.


posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 08:01 AM
reply to post by jdub297

All I have to say on this thread is listen to the "man" jdub297. Factual and concise. The larger you make management the less the worker makes. Simple economics. It applies to government also. Bigger the government less for the taxpayer. Simple, Factual and concise.

posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 08:12 AM
I've got a novel idea. I know that the left has their guy in so it is no longer important but how about...

Stop the wars!!!

I understand that now that Bush is out the wars are good but how about stop all the foreign occupations and you can maybe have a chance at funding these programs that you want whether it be social security of healthcare w/e you want but first you need to stop spending most of the countries GDP on...


posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 12:27 PM
Nobody advocates bigger government......nobody. People always point out bigger government, as if they are the only special people who want the government smaller. EVERYONE wants the government smaller.

The problem is that our government is bloated with massive spending that does nothing to help the average citizen and is geared towards gaining special interest dollars. While we need to shrink the government, there are still some ways it is deficient and certain things that need to be added to it. We need to shrink the war on drugs, the wars on terror, our international presence, our catering to special interest groups. We need to expand our healthcare, our education. We need to make our oversight and restraints on banking, pharma and agro effective. We need to weed out all collusion and conflicts of interest.

posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 01:53 PM

Originally posted by jdub297
Please, ATS, start a basic intelligence test for membership!

Canada has had National Health care since I was born... works very well. In the beginning you paid 11.00 per month out of pocket, now that is covered by employers... I have heard Americans complain about having to wait to get treatment... Well how about that? Your not a Canadian but you will get treated..

The reason the Canadian system is under stress is because of the care given to those from across the borders and those foreigners not paying taxes...

In the US ILLEGALS who pay nothing into the system can get free heath care while a tax payer with money and private insurance sits in line waiting for treatment. It is one of the causes of California going bankrupt. 3 in 4 babies born in CA hospitals are to ILLEGALS

You say Health Care doesn't cost much?

Well I just had surgery... an umbilical hernia... it required a 'C' section type cut to put the mesh in...

Into the hospital at 10:00am... 10:45...lights out... woke up at 2:30 pm sent home at 8:30 pm...

Cost for the operation to the doctor...32,500.00...

Add to that the hospital costs, the anethesist, the preliminary tests and you get close to $40,000.00

Fortunately I have good insurance... through a union.. my total out of pocket for the entire operation and followup visits was $0.00... as the doc doesn't take the co-pay. All it cost me was .35 cents for the Lortabs that I didn't need because he did a good job and there was no pain

Now that insurance is paid for from my employer... and since my employer charges clients 75.00 per hour and time and a half after 5Pm, of which I get a little less than half... I am not feeling guilty about the few bucks an hour he tosses in to the Union fund...

Now this was a relatively minor operation... yet the bill hit the 40,000.00 mark. Even at my rate that would take several YEARS to pay off...

The Federal Reserve cannot account for NINE TRILLION dollars for fiscal year 2008... do you have any idea how much money that is?

Fiscal year 2000 2.3 TRILLION missing... was announced the day before 9/11
Fiscal year 2006 3.0 TRILLION missing...

The few billion that it would need to do decent health care is a mere drop in the bucket. And most of this money does NOT come from taxpayers as many believe...

Think about it... 9 TRILLION is 30,000 for every man woman and child in the US and that is only one year... and only what is unaccounted for...

You want a cause to fight? Where is all that money... and just where did it come from...? (see videos below)

The Secret of how Money is created
Money as Debt

McKinney Grills Rumsfeld

9/10/2001: Rumsfeld says $2.3 TRILLION Missing from Pentagon

Federal Reserve Steals Over 9 Trillion Dollars

You want a GOOD Health care system?


Switzerland's health care system could be the perfect political compromise for the U.S. Those who can afford to buy insurance are required to do so by law. For those who can't, the government provides subsidies. Swiss citizens, such as Cecile Crettol-Rappaz, say they wouldn't trade it for any other system.

Freedom you say?

I feel a lot freer knowing my family is covered by health insurance
I feel a lot freer knowing that my car insurance will cover me for that uninsured idiot

Is insurance EVIL? Does someone PROFIT? Of course... but this is America... land of CAPITALISM... making profit is one of our FREEDOMS that many have died for fighting the Communists

The problem is that greed has let it get out of control.... we need something to put a cap on things and get it back inline.

The US is supposed to be the best country on the planet... yet we can't give decent health care to 90% of our citizens...

posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 04:07 PM
reply to post by zorgon

I understand your feelings, but it is precisely that complacency that has gotten us to the sorry state wefind ourselves in.

As for "missing money," it's not gone, IT NEVER EXISTED! This is what leads to inflation.

To fund government programs, the Treasury dept. collects taxes (revenue) and borrows money (debt). We are deeply in debt and going deeper, because revenue does not come close to covering the amount that Congress has approved to be spent in the current and coming budgets.

When the Treasury wants to borrow, it sells notes, bills and bonds. It promises to pay interest on these "debt instruments."

If too many are sold, the price goes down and interst rates go up. To keep prices high, and interest low, the Federal Reserve "buys" these bonds up. The Federal Reserve "makes money" by printing and circulating "Federal Reseve Notes" - Dollars. By using this "fiat" (i.e., fake) money, the Federal Reseve adds to amount of money already in circulation, lowering the Dollar's value.

Picture a "pie" of everything America owns and creates. It is measured by the amount of "dollars" in circulation. Say that today, $1,000 equals the value of that pie. That is, one dollar buys a 1/1000th slice of it.

Tomorrow, the Fed creates 1,000 more Dollars. Now, the same slice equals $2,000. That is inflation. That's what happens when you stop making "new" for the same pie - money doesn't buy as much of it as it used to.

As for your helath care ideas:

The US is supposed to be the best country on the planet... yet we can't give decent health care to 90% of our citizens...

You'd have more credibility if you relied on facts instead of bias, myth, emotion, and propaganda.


posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 10:11 PM
Newsweek Article:The Health-Care Ego Trip
Obama and his allies see themselves as instruments of national destiny.

Obama's National Healthcare facts and ideology is built on a lie. My favorite quotes below.

Ordinary Americans are rightly suspicious of this exercise in collective ego gratification, which has gripped Obama and many of his congressional allies. Even when the goals are worthy—as they are here—the temptation to exaggerate, simplify and sugarcoat often proves irresistible. Baucus's promotion of his handiwork is a case in point.

Americans worried about this legislation may not know its details or may even be misinformed. Still, their skepticism is justified. Grandiose rhetoric obscures unflattering reality. The proposals don't force the major structural changes in the delivery system that might curb uncontrolled health spending, which is the central problem. The bills that Congress is considering might marginally improve Americans' health but would worsen the federal budget outlook and squeeze other public and private spending. Whatever bragging rights result will quickly erode in the face of the health system's continuing problems.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by Pathos]

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