Racism is for Ignorant Fools, not ATS.

Originally posted by soul of integrity

Originally posted by esecallum

I dare say if you were stripped of your mod cons like your burgher, tv, clothes, dvd player and ipod you would revert to savagery very quickly too
....

you can dare say it ....

but i know from personal experience that you would be wrong.

but then again, your only basis for reference has always been yourself, and what you know of yourself. perhaps therein lies the foundation of your flawed logic.

but i know from personal experience that you would be wrong.

I know from personal experience that he is right and a CIA study done on a society like ours where they begin to lose creature comforts, icons of power or authority, etc, brings barbarism and fast.

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Stylez]

Originally posted by masqua

Originally posted by soul of integrity

i admit to being a racist in the general definition because i believe certain races have certain characteristics that may help them in a certain environment more than that of another from a different environment. *

*bolding mine

This is the crux of the problem, right here.

There are those who believe in seperate races of humankind and there are those who, like myself, do not.

In my opinion, the mere belief is racist even though no hatred is involved.
It's that basic belief, in my honest opinion, that is what racism is all about. It doesn't need to involve bigotry and hate at all. They're just various manifestations of that kind of thinking.

It's ideology, not biology or genetics.

i am making a serious attempt to follow your logic here, because i know you, and i know there is truth in the point you are making.

so if you could please seperate yourself from your biology and your dna, and your genetics .....

demonstrate for me a frame of mind where your dna, your genetics, and your biology have zero say in your idiology and ....

first off, you can't use language as it is from biology, it is from genetics, it is from dna ....

demonstrate for me a frame of mind where all that you are is no longer relevent in this conversation ...

and i will have no choice but to believe that you are correct when you say that it is

It's ideology, not biology or genetics.

remove biology and genetics to obtain an ideology

perhaps we should all open our eyes on our own opinions
open eye on opinion
friends, fear ends
it takes courage to cure rage
pure fact is perfect
few tour the future
seek writ is the secret

perhaps soon we'll all be conscious enough to know what internal processes have contributed to the encryption and encoding of all words and languages, and then from a point of perception where "self before service" aka "self preserve" is less the norm for the collective ideological prejudices and conformity to a society that demands it is no longer relevent in a reality where dna, genetics, and peoples biological make-up account for nothing.


excuse me while i ponder how to ignore (path leads to ignorance)
excuse me while i take your advice and ponder how to accompany my consciousness to a place where we can both ignore either millions of years of evolution, or god's will.

maybe we should all shut up concerning this subject matter until one of the two following happens:

an observer can disregard all biology, dna, genetics, and hundreds of millions of years of evolution ...
aka: me verses all that proceeded me

an observer can disregard god ...
aka: me verses god

either battle seems futile almost....

perhaps we should all just get along in the mean time until someone can supply us with the results of the above mentioned conflicts.

just some thoughts.

have a great day

[edit on 18-9-2009 by soul of integrity]

I applaud the Owners and Mods of this site in their attempt to deal with this issue.
It is a most difficult endeavor considering the amount of postings on this site.

I personally have left this site for months and in one case over a year at a time because of some of the vitriol expressed by some in threads here. One day several months ago I opened the most recently active threads page and close to a quarter of the page was dedicated to hatred of Jews and Holocaust denial.Heck I thought I was reading from Storm Front there at first.

Also on this site it seems to have been acceptable in the past to use slurs such as redneck, cracker and inbreeder to refer to Whites from the southern US, I hope with this new attempt to deal with issues of racism and bigotry on this site, these terms and phrases will be looked down upon as much as slurs are against blacks, hispanics, arabs, jews, muslims and christians.

One simple rule I find useful in posting here, If I am unwilling to say something to your face I have no business typing it in an internet forum. I dont tolerate such things in my home and I read ATS from my home so I have a low tolerance for such things.

Lets as members of ATS raise our standards and make the jobs of the site owners and mods easier, use your alert buttons to make them aware of situations that arise within threads.

Free speech is precious, but so is responsibility in the use of Free Speech.

Thats my view from the nest

Originally posted by reasonable
It's a real shame there are so many tea party members on ATS. I know MANY in this so called movement and all they do half the day is drop n-bombs. It's like taking the KKK and putting a nice facade on it and allowing it to go full bore public. It's as if they are all secretly winking at each other as they project their hate under the guise of a legitimate cause. I am not fooled. It is clever in that sense but nothing more. Keeping an eye on them would be the first step to squashing racism on ATS.

Too bad tea party membership doesn't have suspect class status, because I am a tea party kind a guy and ya know what, whether you believe it or not, NONE of the other tea party people wink at me or even share the "agenda". What makes us all the same is Government is doing something that so much affects our lives that a similar method of dealing with it since we are convinced no politician can be trusted anymore and anyone that defends them after the eight years of what we had already been through, either needs a house to fall on his head or taken off the dole. Doesn't matter, which, the same things were being said about the protesters of the veitnam war, Civil Rights activists and that is just part of the growing pains of a country trying to shed its skin because it is sick of the skin it is in and if you have never heard that saying before, you are probaly already thinking I must be talkin about black skin so I'm a racist.

I almost changed what I wanted to say because I am so worried it might come off racist. Then I thought my god has it come to this?

Honey does this make me look fat?

baby, does this make me sound racist.

reply to post by Stylez

I know from personal experience that he is right and a CIA study done on a society like ours where they begin to lose creature comforts, icons of power or authority, etc, brings babarism and fast.

And there we have it, so in order to perpetuate racism, one must subjigate one group to get them to comform to your notion of cultural behaviours.

So you are saying here that YOU are making a human behave a certain way by denial of human rights or creature comforts, so you are creating the 'inferior' in order to perpetuate your notion of superior.

I can't imagine putting so much effort into my day to maintain a deluded level of superiority. Maybe go buy a sports car or something, thats a healthier way to deal with inferiority complexes.

Originally posted by soul of integrity
maybe we should all shut up concerning this subject matter until one of the two following happens:

an observer can disregard all biology, dna, genetics, and hundreds of millions of years of evolution ...
aka: me verses all that proceeded me

an observer can disregard god ...
aka: me verses god

either battle seems futile almost....

Honestly, I appreciate your thoughts on this. You have left the door open for ideas.

There are two things I'd like to point out:

'Race' as an idea, is only 400 years old. Before that, there were only 'different people'.

"Race" first appeared in the English language around the 17th century. North Americans began to use the term in their scientific writings by the late 18th century. Racism was developed and popularized by scientists in the 19th century, as they were regarded as purveyors of truth. At the time this ideology also explained political and economic conflicts in various parts of the world and legitimized the dominant role of British capitalism in the world economic system.

www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com...

As far as the Christian religion is concerned, there is not one mention of the word 'race' in the bible as applied to 'different peoples'.

The Bible does not even use the word race in reference to people

creation.com...

It is ignorance to ignore differences between races.

It would be helpful if there were a common definition of what racism means. If racism is the awareness of the differences between races, to not acknowledge differences between races is ignorance. Imagine if genomic research was directed to ignore characteristics of race, in the end someone may get the wrong prescription. If medicine were race blind, diagnoses would rule out most probable causes of conditions and instead would apply a common diagnostic procedure for everyone. There are races of people who believe that different methods of education and tests need to be applied to their race.

Are all humans the same? No. Can we generalize? Yes. An Icelandic person does not have the same physical characteristics as an Aborigine. Just because we were born equal in the eyes of God does not make us physically, socially, or mentally equivalent and that we can directly replace another adult and live their life without some glaring deficiency.

I am a brown skinned mixed race person if it makes a difference. I am an individual. I am not the same as everyone else, I am different because of my genes, my life, my education, my eating habits, my interests, and social influences. There are many specific ways I am not equivalent to specific individuals, and I do see obvious and statistical characteristics not specific to just individuals, but that can be generalized to a genetic background. I would like to think my positive characteristics (some of which are genetic) offset by my negative characteristics do sum up to be equal to everyone else or to all other groups on the planet, but I think reality is a bit different. I am impressed by some characteristics or social achievements of individuals as well as by groups of individuals (dare I say race?). Ancient Egyptians, War time Germans, modern Chinese, the list goes on.

Maybe it's race based hate we want to ban.

I really wish you hadnt done that. Now every thread is turning into a big racist discussion.

We are perfectly capable of handle racist remarks ourselves.

I understand that it is ugly and you dont like ugliness. I know your heart is in the right place. Its just that I think you are doing more harm than good thats all.

Originally posted by Nirgal
As a marginally off-topic retort to this statement:

I retain the right to freely voice hate speech. If I hate racism I shall voice that hate freely and without fear of recrimination. Your so-called civilised European countries have gone down a road that merely removes all opposition to whatever mantra happens to be in vogue.

It is essential to highlight this or we are doomed to fall into the trap.

We obviously have a differing definition of hate speech. It is your right to voice your hate of something, anything at all, but if you while doing so propose that all racist must be killed at sight then it becomes hate speech, in the strict sense and as defined by law in such countries as Germany and Greece, for example. And no this does not remove automatically all opposition; that's just wishful thinking on your part. It just removes those extremist views that promote fascist lies and violence against fellow human beings.

Originally posted by Nirgal
Back on topic: I keep forgetting people really are that ignorant. An OP that is er, how do you Americans say?

"Self-evident"?

Yes, there are people that are that ignorant and then some. As I said it was high time that the site management stepped in.

Originally posted by masqua


To say that "races prefer to be around their own kind" is a fallacy simply because, imho, there are no 'races', only nations.

What???? Are you talking about "land masses" or people?

Cultures or a common physical common denominator a segment of a population of people of that nation may all share?

I mean it sounds great and even makes a great comeback after someone levels the allegation of someone being racist but do people in chinatown want to be there among their own kind or are they racist themselves and stay away from us?

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Stylez]

reply to post by Stylez


Nations are made up of people. Empty land masses are just land masses.

If people prefer to live among their own ethnic groups, what's the harm in that. The Greek area in Toronto, for instance, is a great place to visit. They're not grouped there because they're avoiding others, it's because they're proud of their culture. They enjoy eating their native dishes in restaurants and the shops of the district carry products from home.

Nothing racist about that, imo. I don't blame them for wanting to live in it.

edit to add:

IMO... there is no such thing as seperate races. There is only one human race and it extends across all nationalities everywhere.



[edit on 18/9/09 by masqua]

reply to post by soul of integrity


i'm not dissagreeing with you masqua ...

i'm asking where it is i would be if i followed your logic to it's ends ...

i think a perspective exists that makes more sense of reality when one does think of humanity as one race ... but i had to continue on this path of logic ...

if humanity were one race, if a collective part of the whole of an individual was dedicated to all ... would we always be willing to be consciously aware of such a collective "soul" ???

i can't dissagree with you masqua.

because if one journeys far enough within, one will face a genetic/biological mechanism that is what you describe ....

if we were one ???
if we are one ???

there is a very powerful truth in masqua's statements.
a powerful truism behind, underneath, on the other side of ...
self preservation


edited to add:
kudos on etymological (study of words/origins) viewpoint on the word "race".

[edit on 18-9-2009 by soul of integrity]

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
reply to post by Stylez

 

I know from personal experience that he is right and a CIA study done on a society like ours where they begin to lose creature comforts, icons of power or authority, etc, brings babarism and fast.

And there we have it, so in order to perpetuate racism, one must subjigate one group to get them to comform to your notion of cultural behaviours.

So you are saying here that YOU are making a human behave a certain way by denial of human rights or creature comforts, so you are creating the 'inferior' in order to perpetuate your notion of superior.

I can't imagine putting so much effort into my day to maintain a deluded level of superiority. Maybe go buy a sports car or something, thats a healthier way to deal with inferiority complexes.

Great comeback! especially the part about me having an inferiorty complex. Problem is I never said anything your comeback was responding to. Where you got all that out of my mentioning my own experience using the data from a cia study I read, was not the consent I gave you to assume such superiority over me. I say what I mean and I mean what I say and NO WHERE in my statement was their any talk of subjugation. It is a fact not of race but of human nature.

If it were not a fact, if I were wrong, and what I said is not true, then words like "anarchy" "civil defense" "FEMA" or phrases like "Maintain civility" and "Civilized Society" would have never been invented to define those efforts to keep such civilized societies from falling into barbarism.

We saw cops stealing TV sets after Katrina, we saw Blackwater beating up on old woman. They are people hired to protect property from being stolen like that and people from being beaten up like that.

The guy you were talking to, was right and you are wrong. Hell you didn't even understand what I said but I suppose that is my fault too eh?



[edit on 18-9-2009 by Stylez]

Originally posted by masqua
reply to post by Stylez

 

Nations are made up of people. Empty land masses are just land masses.

If people prefer to live among their own ethnic groups, what's the harm in that. The Greek area in Toronto, for instance, is a great place to visit. They're not grouped there because they're avoiding others, it's because they're proud of their culture. They enjoy eating their native dishes in restaurants and the shops of the district carry products from home.

Nothing racist about that, imo. I don't blame them for wanting to live in it.

edit to add:

IMO... there is no such thing as seperate races. There is only one human race and it extends across all nationalities everywhere.

[edit on 18/9/09 by masqua]

Ok, yeah, I agree with all that, and have said races are not "species" but I see them as "cultures" . I too LOVE visiting China town and little italy etc. You have an pretty enlightened scope on how you see it but what is your take on what racism has become known as where it seems a distinction in terms and definition is so varied

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Stylez]

I'm going to have to agree with this. ANY kind of racism is ignorant as hell. Good thread.

I have been a long time lurker, short term poster on ATS. If this has anything to do with the "everyone who opposes Obama is a racist" BS, I'll become a 'never again' poster or lurker.

I had an angry response after reading the initial post as it seemed this was classing all Americans together as racist. Which bothered me a great deal.

Over the course of the past year, the intensely hateful political environment of the U.S. has been a breeding ground for a rise in subtly phrased racism as well as fiercely overt bigotry. We all know why and we all know the cause, there's no reason to spend time reviewing such.

Racism is a problem that affects everyone. Like it or not, no one country is perfect. I calmed down... I realize that the Obama ordeal involved the whole world. We were the spark and it ignited racial tensions everywhere. I realize now that Skep probably wasn't singling us out. While you have no idea the level of violence in my first reaction, I took a while to sort out my feelings and get things right before making this post. Taking the time to truly analyze your emotions and the post you are reacting to BEFORE posting is a habit I wish more people would get into. It would save a lot of heartache.

Still, Skep, I'd like to point out that almost any time I get into a conversation where America is teh central point, we get verbally hammered for simply being American. Perhaps an addendum is in order?

reply to post by snusfanatic


I dont think thats exactly what this is about. A huge portion of this site doesnt like obama.

This decree is as bad as the racism it targets.

It is inherently dangerous to claim that some are ignorant fools, "unworthy of participation in society". Such a strong position leads to judgment and misjudgment, ignorant behavior in and of itself. Where is the line drawn on racism? What definition do you apply? What perspective applies? Your own, of course. Absolute power corrupts.

Suspected racist thought needs to be engaged, not arbitrarily identified and silenced.

Originally posted by Stylez

what is your take on what racism has become known as where it seems a distinction in terms and definition is so varied

Great question and thank you for asking it!

Initially, I see it as being a method used by countries who saw a profit to be made by controlling the produce of other countries as, for instance, the East India Company or Hudsons Bay would in relation to spices and furs.

The idea was to 'take control', both in setting the 'buying price' of those commodities as well as the employment of those who provided those goods. The selling price invariably was many hundreds of times the buying price from those countries. We're talkig pre-colonial here. The best way to do that was to pay next to nothing for something that could be sold back home for huge profits. Under no circumstances were the people who provided such goods to ever know how badly they were being 'taken'.

The next step was to form 'plantations' so that the growing and the picking could be 'overseen' by those who were making the profits. The people of the country were to be kept poor so that they could be exploited. The best way to do that was to look at them as being a little 'less' than their bosses.
The practice is still going today and the term 'Banana Republic' comes from that.

The next step was colonization of those countries, even so far as to take over the government of it since now people were starting to think of these 'lesser humans' as different races incapable of looking after their own interests, which happened to be a growing global need for such things as sugar and spice and everything nice, like beaver hats.

On it went, right up until some of the colonies, like India and Indonesia, started to feel like they'd had enough of being ripped off and treated badly, began throwing out the colonists and retaking control of their own government. Some did OK, other's did not. Some still are somewhat regarded as colonies and never totally threw off foreign involvement (like Canada).

But the one thing that still remains in a big way is the notion that there are 'lesser races'. You'll notice that I've left slavery out of this, but let's just agree that all of this has produced a lot of lingering anger within the long memories of subjegated peoples the world over. Because of that simmering hatred for the inequities of the not-so-distant past, the reaction is the continued perpetuation of the idea of 'races' as a defense mechanism.

The perpetuation of racial division is a reaction to the anger that seethes in the minds of those people who have for centuries been badly used.

You don't need to look overseas anymore, because they now live among us. Racism and its counterpart, reverse racism, is what is plaguing our societies.

The only way that we can ever stop this flood of hatred is to understand that racial division was a convenient lie before and a faulty defense now. Get rid of the notion and we'll have a chance at reconciliation. Keep the idea of racial inequality alive and the hate will continue on both sides of that divide. It's the thorn in the lion's paw, the burr under the saddle, the rotten tooth in the bear's jaw and, as one member recently put it, the elephant in the ATS room.