Ahmadinejad: Confronting Israel is a national duty, Holocaust was a "lie"

Originally posted by kindred
Most people should know better than to believe anying written in the press

Tens of thousands work as writers, reporters, investigative journalists. There are terrible newspapers and there are ones with outstanding records of keeping us informed.

The way we do know about government corruption, corporate abuse, criminal activity, partisan interests of government, is due to the diligence and efforts of people who do first hand research and analysis. Many have made great sacrifices and risked their lives to inform us what we need to know.

If you just cavalierly dismiss what has been published in newspapers
as lies, there goes 90% of of our history of the last 100 years.

Who should we believe, TV news, websites by people putting spin on what the papers say, Youtube?


M

Yeah your right in what you say, but the trouble these days is that there's so many people & governments with their own agendas, who like to manipulate the truth, lie and deceive for some reason or another, that it's hard to believe anything or anyone these days. Unfortunately I can only see things getting worse. The only thing we have got to go on is our own reasoning skills and they are not exactly fallible either.

After going thru the front few threads I realised most of the people are still dwelling in past and want to burden everyone with stories dating back 100 of years, noone cares today atleast not anyone I know.

Staying on the Topic - In my opinion I absolutely do not care about any Holocast/ Iran murders in some 1800-1600 AD/BC/ Christian Invasion/Roman Invasion/Muslim Invasion blah blah blah etc etc. For me they all are stories I read. What matters is today and present which will shape the future. So. Mr A said Holocast is a lie so what? Who gives a damn what someone says or did'nt say...by searching one can find endless quotes or statements said by Israeli Prime Ministers against Palestinians/ Iranians and vice versa. Both the sides keep throwing such words to eachother. So what's the big deal dude!!

Get over words, what matters is actually doing something. Has Iran done something to Israel yet? Has Israel done something to Iran yet? No, so why all the hue cry! Why all the sordid old stories from 50-100 yrs ago? Lol, stop quabbling like chickens.

reply to post by December_Rain

Israel is actively preventing Iran from becoming regional super-power with nukes. Iran actively arms and pays to military organizations on Israeli borders, with history of conflicts. Recent only couple of years ago.
And history is very, very important in politics, among other things. This is large part of what makes public opinion after all.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by December_Rain

 

Israel is actively preventing Iran from becoming regional super-power with nukes. Iran actively arms and pays to military organizations on Israeli borders, with history of conflicts. Recent only couple of years ago.
And history is very, very important in politics, among other things. This is large part of what makes public opinion after all.

History is over, it's past, it's gone and beyond any human to change but you do not shape your future dwelling in history, you shape it in present thru current events. Who is presently on ground doing actual atrocities/ goodwork is what matters.

reply to post by December_Rain

Iran sponsors, trains and supplies Hamas (a pain in
the backside of Israel) and threatens ending the Israel. I believe Israel has every right (in its arsenal) to reply in accordance with the threat it faces.

Though Iran loves to fall back on their "we never started a war", they never seem to provide a justification for what they are doing in Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Yemen, practically anywhere there is a hot spot, providing funding and weapons for other people to kill other people.

Could it be after an 8 year war with Iraq where they had the advantage of size and numbers they couldn't do any better than a draw? So they hire mercenaries to fight battles, form alliances with the likes of North Korea and Venezuela, play every game under the sun to avoid direct confrontation.

Even their rhetoric and strategies to provoke Israel are underhanded. They want to destroy Israel, let them make a declaration.

How all these international ventures benefit the country still remains a mystery. Iran really wants to fill the position the Saudis have as the dominant force in the region. But a direct confrontation with them they know would mean the Americans stepping down on them hard.

The current regime in Iran is made up of aging clerics who’ve probably never even seen the West they loathe so much and are determined to bring down. There are some great people in the country, I find the leadership detestable and worse dangerous.

Were it just about money and power you might be able to deal with them.. Religious fanatics and megalomaniacs are scarier. You don’t know how far off the deep end they’re liable to go.

Give me a bunch of smart self-serving crooks any day.. At least you know where they stand.


Mike

reply to post by mmiichael


Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Cause and reaction, freewill and self determination is all things that go out of the window with these types of arguments. Would there be, was there a Hamas before Iran ever gave them a penny? Yes there was, do people in Palestine join Hamas of their own freewill for a purpose they feel is valid to them? Yes they do. I am not saying it is valid mind you Michael, I am saying the reasons are valid to them. The same is true of Hizbollah in Lebanon. The people who belong to Hizbollah in Lebanon are Lebanese and portraying Hizbollah and Hamas as simply bought and paid for mercenary organization is completely disingenuous because while they aren’t very adept or well equipped when it comes to fighting modern wars, they are adept at winning the hearts and minds of people who see a value in joining those organizations in large part due to their charitable works. They build schools, hospitals, roads, feed the poor, offer scholarships, and yes try to organize their people’s securities through both defensive and offensive military capabilities.

Maybe the people who support these organizations see a legitimate need for them and can make up their own minds as to the wisdom of supporting them and joining them. Neither Hamas nor Hizbollah are 100% or even close to 100% funded or equipped by Iran. A large portion of their funding comes from people who belong to these organizations inside of Lebanon and Palestine.

Now does Israel do a very good job at winning these affected peoples hearts and minds? How many schools, hospitals, roads, scholar ships and food banks has Israel set up for these people or contributed? Israel in fact bombs and smashes all these things routinely. That of course is what leads to their belief that there is a genuine need for their security in both a defensive and offensive capability.

For every effect there is a cause. Israel and it’s supporters and courters spend a lot of time complaining about the effect of the things it’s own short sighted and typically disproportioned actions cause.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Now is where you will argue that this was done once upon a time (by exaggerating what little was done and how) and it was rejected out hand or prematurely because (insert chosen enemy of the moment) does not want peace and will never accept Israel.

So while some nations like Israel try to effect hearts and minds with bullets through them, other nations like Iran try to win hearts and minds with full stomachs of donated food, the way to any man’s heart by the way, and bullet proof vests and metal helmets to stop or slow the bullets.

It seems to me that the Iranian President is saying what a lot of ATS Members have and do, that it’s not Israel, or the Jews but Zionism as a political movement running Israel that’s the cause creating the effects.

We here in the United States give Israel a lot of money and basically allow them to employ their own free will and self determination on how to use it. Sometimes they use it for good things, sometimes they use it for bad things, but Israel accepts the money of it’s own free will and spends it of it’s own free will, and we all so give Israel weapons which they use in the same fashion.

There is absolutely no difference in the United States practice or Iran’s practice, there is absolutely no difference in how Hamas, Hizbollah, and Israel utilize the charity they receive for their own uses.

Part of the problem in cause and affect is that even when a person like the Iranian President clearly says what they mean, other people want to put additional words in his mouth to suit their own agenda. I think a President of a sovereign nation is more than capable of saying what he means, and said what he meant to mean what he said.

The argument that he didn’t mean that but meant something different that warrants sending bombs and bullets instead of flowers and peaceful gifts of humanitarian and cultural exchange is what causes Zionist Israel to loose hearts and minds the world over in a war for hearts and minds where Zionist Israel more and more chooses to win hearts and minds by saying love us with all your heart, agree with us with all your heart or we will murder you or penalize you in some other way.

Which came first Michael the chicken or the egg? Cause and effect and free will are not things any propaganda aimed at winning hearts and minds can over come. When people see that the attempt to win their heart is only for the point of turning it black…? Enough said.

Give peace a chance, understand everyone is doing what they want to be doing out of free will and everyone is reacting to something that cause made them feel was wise to react in that manner.

People solve mutual problems by talking to and with one another, not at one another.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


well said. S&F

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by December_Rain

 

Iran sponsors, trains and supplies Hamas (a pain in
the backside of Israel) and threatens ending the Israel. I believe Israel has every right (in its arsenal) to reply in accordance with the threat it faces.

Iran has every right to defend themselves as well.

Or does Iran have to accept US/Israeli sponsored acts of "terror", murder, coup d'état and constant threat of attack?

"One of the operational assets being used by the Defense Department is a right-wing terrorist organization known as Mujahedeen-e Khalq (MEK)," (a pain in the backside of Iran)

www.globalsecurity.org...

Iran can use Hamas to respond violently under the same contorted definition of "defending" themselves.. all is fair in love and war, eye for an eye, good for the goose... and all that.

And BTW, if the US can preemptively attack Iraq based on a laughable claim of "defense" against imminent threat of WMD attack, why can't Iran do the same? Israel is confirmed to have WMDs, closer, and has overtly threatened Iran many times...

Iran is showing us they too can adopt USA defense logic & reasoning, ignore UN letters rejecting hostilities, then use violence 1000's on miles away to "defend" themselves. Irans leaders can rightfully claim they're doing it "American style", "It's better to fight the Israelis over there, before they get here.".... dontcha know.

At bare minimum... Russia, Iran, Cuba and Venezuela could justify forming a coalition of the willing, then attacking & occupying the US Red Dawn style.. for their collective defense, of course.

Originally posted by GovtFlu
And BTW, if the US can preemptively attack Iraq based on a laughable claim of "defense" against imminent threat of WMD attack, why can't Iran do the same? Israel is confirmed to have WMDs, closer, and has overtly threatened Iran many times...

Saddam Hussein broke the terms agreed to when he lost the 1991 war. Oil was being sold in contravention of the Oil-for-Food program.

The reason the world though Saddam had WMD was because he told them. A lame attempt to keep Iran form moving in on him in his weakened state. He did have serious biologicals that ere moved to Syria by a Russian convoy the week before the US went in.

Iran lost Iraq as an enemy when the US went in. Further the US facilitated open elections which ended up with a Shiite majority rule making Iraq essentially Iran II.

The Mullahs did not comprehend the shifts in the regional political influence. They interfered with Iraq in it's formative period, then Lebanon, and outward - noe Yemen.

They had their chance to aim for some kind of autonomous neutrality like Turkey, Egypt, Libya, Jordan, an others. They want spread their sphere of influence and make enemies - they have them. Nothing comes without a price.

Bad leadership, diabolically bad diplomacy. Theocracies fail because they don't understand what it takes to run a country in an international environment.

Bad luck for the Iranian people.


M

Unsurprisingly I cannot see any quotes in that article, translated or otherwise which indicate that Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier. I found this:

During a speech for the rallies, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad railed against Israel and the West, questioning whether the Holocaust occurred and calling it a pretext for occupying Arab land.

That's called hearsay, aka sloppy journalism. Aka slander if you happen to do it to someone living in the United States.

The problem with these dodgy dotcoms reporting on anything which someone has said in arabic, is the mistranslations which happen all the time. Often they quite conveniently paint said arab to be unreasonable, possibly even psychopathic and evil. Got to wonder about that dont you?

Here's my bet: Ahmadinejad called Israel a bunch of liars, and said that they are capitalizing on the holocaust and using it as a building block for zionism. Then the CIA's lapdog media outlets get ahold of it, mistranslate it and spread it around. Then the media dotcoms who can't be bothered to check their sources just publish it on the internet. And there you have the news, and truth being created.



[edit on 20-9-2009 by Lazyninja]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by mmiichael

 

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Let's take a walk down forgotten memory lane.

How France sank the original Mideast peace

Every day politicians and pundits talk of another chance at Middle East peace missed, delayed or subverted. The focus is always on Palestinians and Israelis as the keystone to a global settlement with the West and across the region. But in the original peace arrangement between the Jews, Arabs and the Western powers, it was not settlements and Jerusalem that were at the heart of the problem. In fact, the Arabs originally agreed to a Jewish state complete with massive Jewish immigration. For Arabs, the prize was not Palestine, it was Syria.


This is the story of how the original Middle East peace plan crafted among all sides in the aftermath of World War I was subverted - not by Jews or Zionists, but by the French.

It begins at the Paris Peace Conference in January 1919, in a flag-bedecked, battle-scarred but victorious Paris. There, the great top-hatted Allied men of vision and illusion gathered to remake the world and invent the post-Ottoman Middle East. At those fateful meetings, the Arabs and Jews formally agreed to mutually endorse both their national aspirations and live in peace.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6fc7d0307af1.gif[/atsimg]
Ottoman Empire

At the height of its power (16th–17th century), it spanned three continents, controlling much of Southeastern Europe, Western Asia and North Africa. The Ottoman Empire contained 29 provinces and numerous vassal states; some of which were later absorbed into the empire, while others gained various types of autonomy during the course of centuries. The empire also temporarily gained authority over distant overseas lands through declarations of allegiance to the Ottoman Sultan and Caliph, such as the declaration by the Sultan of Aceh in 1565; or through the temporary acquisitions of islands in the Atlantic Ocean, such as Lanzarote (1585).[7]

The empire was at the centre of interactions between the Eastern and Western worlds for six centuries. With Constantinople as its capital city,[8][9] and vast control of lands around the eastern Mediterranean during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent (ruled 1520 to 1566), the Ottoman Empire was, in many respects, an Islamic successor to the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire.[10]

reply to post by SLAYER69


Great post Slayer as always, thanks for the information.

History should never be forgotten! Real history that is.

Originally posted by Lazyninja
The problem with these dodgy dotcoms reporting on anything which someone has said in arabic, is the mistranslations which happen all the time. Often they quite conveniently paint said arab to be unreasonable, possibly even psychopathic and evil. Got to wonder about that dont you?

Here's my bet: Ahmadinejad called Israel a bunch of liars, and said that they are capitalizing on the holocaust and using it as a building block for zionism. Then the CIA's lapdog media outlets get ahold of it, mistranslate it and spread it around. Then the media dotcoms who can't be bothered to check their sources just publish it on the internet.

There has never been anything a word out of Mr A's mouth, that hasn't been said to be misunderstood, misquoted, misinderstood, mistranslated. All 600 of his pronoucements about the destruction of Israel we just didn't realize the context.

I posted a long excerpt on Iran's active involvement with the Nazis and their combined efforts to exterminate Jews in the region. Not a peep from an yone here. Too inconvenient to deal with.

As for Holocaust Denial and those charming Mullahs with their rotating front men - well don't kid yourself.

www.sfgate.com.../c/a/2006/01/08/INGODGH99Q1.DTL.

Since the shah's downfall, Iran has become a center for organized international Holocaust denial and has helped elevate the endeavor from fringe hate speech to a state-approved pseudo-intellectual debate.

In international forums and on state-controlled radio, Iranian university experts and journalists help validate the revisionist views that Jews were never gassed or murdered in great numbers during the Holocaust.

Indeed, Iran has become a refuge for the biggest names in European Holocaust denial. When in 2000, revisionist author Jürgen Graf was sentenced in Switzerland to 15 months in prison for Holocaust falsification, Graf fled to Tehran "at the invitation of a group of Iranian scholars and university professors who are sympathetic to Holocaust revisionism," according to the Institute for Historical Review, a denial clearinghouse.

What's more, in May 2000, Iran's embassy in Vienna granted asylum to Austrian Holocaust denier Wolfgang Fröhlich, who testified as a so-called expert witness during Graf's 1998 trial. This saved Fröhlich from Austria's severe anti-Holocaust denial statutes. Fröhlich argued that evidence proved no Jews were killed by Zyklon B gassing.

Earlier, about 600 journalists and 160 members of the Iranian parliament signed petitions supporting French revisionist Roger Garaudy, who was fined $40,000 by French authorities for his book claiming the Holocaust was a myth. When Garaudy landed in Iran, the country's supreme spiritual leader, Ayatollah Sayyad Khamenei, granted him an audience and lauded his work.

Iran has played a leading role in the Holocaust drama and now tries to deny it. That should be very hard in a nation that was named for Hitler's master race.

M


[edit on 20-9-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael


Even if Iran is the Nazi capital of the world it doesn't change the fact that the article has no quotes, no recorded and translated audio, or anything resembling any kind of proof that what the article is insinuating is actually true.

Lets nevermind the fact that the dotcom in question is Israeli owned (mentioned on page 1)

Time and again I see you making posts defending dodgy journalism, why is that?

reply to post by December_Rain


Really? Iran doesn't funnel money to terrorists who attack Israel?

Originally posted by Lazyninja
reply to post by mmiichael

 

Even if Iran is the Nazi capital of the world it doesn't change the fact that the article has no quotes, no recorded and translated audio, or anything resembling any kind of proof that what the article is insinuating is actually true.

Lets nevermind the fact that the dotcom in question is Israeli owned (mentioned on page 1)

Time and again I see you making posts defending dodgy journalism, why is that?

I won't even comment on your sources and obvious biases.

Let's just shrug off Iran's attempts to expedite the extermination of Jews going back to the 30s, even before there was a Zioist regime for them to blame. Let's forget about their ongoing endorsement of lunatic fringe holocaust deniers.

Let's focus on whether there are quotation marks in an article.

And who in God's name, may I ask, appointed you as the final arbitrator of what's dodgy and what's legitimate.

Mike

reply to post by SmokeJaguar67


Wow thanks man didnt know about this cheers for the info keep up the good work!!

reply to post by ufoorbhunter


I understand. I lived in Germany for 11 years throughout most of my childhood, and I can assure you that the holocaust really happened. That's not to be denied. So I'm only questioning its true purpose and reason for happening.

We had to watch this program in school in Germany about the holocaust where they showed the concentration camps, jews being shot and murdered, and being dumped into holes in piles and piles. When the program was over, the room was all silent. No student would talk. They just left the classroom with a shocked and somber look in the face. This is mandatory for children to watch in German schools, no matter how disturbing.

Still, today I don't believe it was all only planned by the German nazis. Despite the evil that they caused, they ended up also being victims of the grand plan, as you said (except for those who brought their expertise abroad to places such as Argentina, Brazil, the US etc.).