Putin calls for more US concessions in follow-up to missile U-turn , page 2
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reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 10:29 AM by xoxo stacie
Originally posted by Crakeur
Originally posted by jdub297
Oh. So instead of having Russia steal our innovation, Obama will just give it to them!



how about a shared system with joint technology not aimed at protecting the US and her allies but all of Europe?

www.nydailynews.com...

this is starting to sound like a set up. let's see if we can't mess with the new guy's head and get him to commit to things.


Good call!
But also consider that most if not all of the BRIC countries know we are in trouble with the economy eta all. They are running in full bore and grabbing what ever they can while we are down.
Look for more countries to start "demanding" more from the USA in the form of technology, manufacturing etc. It is not going to stop anytime soon. As it is still going to take us several years if not an entire decade or more to recover from what has happened in the last two decade!
Keep an ear to the ground Putin has started the free for all and Obama had better put a stop to it now or we are in even worse trouble than we started with.


reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 11:14 AM by jdub297
reply to post by Crakeur
how about a shared system with joint technology not aimed at protecting the US and her allies but all of Europe?


Who would better know how to defend/counter the Russian S-300 missiles?

The way I see it, if we don't join in, they'll do it without us anyway.

Is anyone else reporting this?

jw



reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 11:34 AM by jdub297
reply to post by buddhasystem


Well, those who say "concessions", get this:


On Friday, the Interfax news quoted an unnamed Russian military-diplomatic source as saying that the Russians had backed off a threat to deploy short-range missiles to a site near Poland if the U.S. moved ahead with the Bush missile defense plan.


First, the "Interfax" agency is about as valuable a source as some of the British tabloids. (I have YET to read any reports of value, and I check them almost daily.)

Second,rumors of Russia backing off of a military 'threat to deploy', is hardly a concession.

See how happy the Poles are?
Poles and Czechs voiced deep concern Friday at President Barack Obama's decision to scrap a Bush-era missile defense shield planned for their countries.

"Betrayal! The U.S. sold us to Russia and stabbed us in the back," the Polish tabloid Fakt declared on its front page.

Polish President Lech Kaczynski said he was concerned that Obama's new strategy leaves Poland in a dangerous "gray zone" between Western Europe and the old Soviet sphere.

www.msnbc.com...

We should be grateful, right?

jw

[edit on 18-9-2009 by jdub297]


reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 11:46 AM by jdub297
Originally posted by serph
reply to post by buddhasystem


And there's our give and take.


All our friends are thrilled:

"Czechs and Poles Outraged"
Recent events have rattled nerves throughout central and eastern Europe, a region controlled by Moscow during the Cold War, including the war last summer between Russia and Georgia and ongoing efforts by Russia to regain influence in Ukraine. A Russian cutoff of gas to Ukraine last winter left many Europeans without heat.

The Bush administration's missile defense plan would have been "a major step in preventing various disturbing trends in our region of the world," Kaczynski said in a guest editorial in Fakt that also was carried on his presidential Web site.

Neighboring Lithuania, a small Baltic nation that broke away from the Soviet Union in 1991 and is now a NATO member, also expressed regret over Obama's decision.

Defense Minister Rasa Jukneviciene said that the shield would have increased security for Lithuania and she hoped missile defense would not be excluded from future talks on NATO security.

"This NATO region cannot be an exception and its defense is not less important compared with others," she said.


www.msnbc.com...

You get what you pay for, no?

jw


reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 11:47 AM by dizzie56
Wow, couldn't see that coming from ten miles away at all, nope, not at all. (That was sarcasm in case nobody picked it up, I cant actually type sarcasm, my button is broke)

Lets see, first we bend over a bit more, then just a bit more, then a nice stiff, well you get it. And for everybody that says "Its called making friends", i hope that this isnt the way you make friends in real life. If so, lend me $15k and ill pay you back when i get around to it, i really need a new truck. Honestly tho, does anybody actually see an end to these "consessions"? Obama is gonna give and give and give with nothing in return. You think that Russia taking down their missiles was a "consession" our way? They only did that cause we took ours down first and they no longer have a "need" for them. And now Putin wants more? Give me a break. Putin is bout to put-it-in without the lube and obama is just gonna let it happen. Times like this is when i wish we could just divide up the country, all the lefties can take Cali, NY, DC, Washington...hell, the west coast and most of the NE. The right gets the south and midwest. Id be happy as a peach with that. But of course if that happened Russia would end up in our (the rights) back yard cause the lefties would give away their land because they are trying to "make friends" and they have this wanting desire to be toled what to do by somebody. Lack of self confidence? Self esteem? Idk, but ive never had to pay people to be my friends. Those are not the type of friends that i would want havin my back.

"Bis dat qui cito dat"- He gives twice that gives soon, ie he will soon be called to give again.
-Ben Franklin

"He who believes that new benefits will cause great personages to forget old injuries is deceived."
-The Prince, by Machiavelli

Just history repeating itself, over and over and over and over.......


reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 11:48 AM by jdub297
reply to post by ItsallCrazy
Methinks a ploy to make Obama look weak


Except, he's doing it to himself!

Methinks it's just incompetence.

jw


reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 01:56 PM by Dermo
Originally posted by dizzie56
And for everybody that says "Its called making friends", i hope that this isnt the way you make friends in real life. If so, lend me $15k and ill pay you back when i get around to it, i really need a new truck.


Sorry m8 but the US has basically raped the world for the past few decades.. There's no point in pretentious thinking, I understand a lot of you are sour because you are so used to your country taking and not giving or swapping.

But this is Karma. The US is giving back what it took physically/mentally and in terms of respect in order to make friends and gain allies in order to keep itself safe while its empire recedes continuously for the next.....?

Giving these concessions to Russia while forging an alliance between the US, EU and Russia is one of the best pieces of Geopolitical chess play I have seen since the start of the Cold war. And this is completely unexpected. I was watching the Russian news all day and they are flabbergasted about what is happening. They are singing Obama's praises while asking what the US are going to want in return.

China is up and coming, Russia is too tied to the EU to be a threat to the west. It may not be any more that 20 years before Russia is in the EU so why keep it as an enemy.

Why not make friends with it.. then use it to ensure the Chinese and Muslim world stay in line and the West stay top dog.



TBH, the attitude I see here is so similar to the sourness that was so prominent amongst French and British people about the loss of their empires and having to deal with "Lesser" peoples and nations. This is one of the reasons they were deemed pompous for so many years. This is one of the things Americans have been slagging them about for so many years. Funny to see the same attitude begin to emerge amongst ye now.

[edit on 18/9/09 by Dermo]


reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 02:25 PM by dizzie56
reply to post by Dermo


Dont get me wrong, im not down with the whole american empire thing...but a foreign prime minister "warning" us to make more consessions is pushing it. I think the fact that we took down the defense system was dumb (i should say "changed"), but we did and they didnt implement their system. Why should we do more for them and give them more consessions? What does the United States really owe Russia? And to talk about America raping the world and not mentioning Russia in that rape is a lil hypocrital dont you think? Does nobody remember the goulogs? How bout Stalin's lil secret police? They are just as bad, if not worse. So why should we make more concessions to them?


reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 03:14 PM by jdub297
reply to post by Dermo
concessions to Russia while forging an alliance between the US, EU and Russia is one of the best pieces of Geopolitical chess play I have seen since the start of the Cold war.


"Forging an alliance?" Do you have any idea what is going on in the REAL world?

Sarkozy says the US economic and trade policies MUST meet EU standards.

Putin and Medvedev cut off gas supplies to Eastern and Central Europe.

Poles and Czechs voiced deep concern Friday at President Barack Obama's decision to scrap a Bush-era missile defense shield planned for their countries.
"Betrayal! The U.S. sold us to Russia and stabbed us in the back," the Polish tabloid Fakt declared on its front page.
Polish President Lech Kaczynski said he was concerned that Obama's new strategy leaves Poland in a dangerous "gray zone" between Western Europe and the old Soviet sphere.
In Prague, an editorial in a respected Czech newspaper said: "an ally we rely on has betrayed us, and exchanged us for its own, better relations with Russia, of which we are rightly afraid."

www.msnbc.com...

"Allies Abandon US at Climate Confab"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The world’s major powers are repeatedly breaking their pledges not to erect trade barriers, and there is no sign the “protectionist juggernaut” will ease as countries recover from the global downturn.
The world’s 20 major economies have been responsible for as many as 121 “blatantly protectionist” measures, with 134 more in the pipeline, said Global Trade Alert, a monitoring service overseen by the London-based Centre for Economic Policy Research and supported by the World Bank and other international organizations.
www.msnbc.com...


"Forging an alliance?"

And as for "raping the world," who do you think is scooping up resources in Africa, South America, and eslewhere?

"Aided by Financial Crises, China Takes Key Assets"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Deny ignorance.

jw

[edit on 18-9-2009 by jdub297]


reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 03:47 PM by Stormdancer777
reply to post by jdub297




The measures should include “the complete removal of all restrictions on the transfer of high technology to Russia”, he said.


WOW, yet some people still don't get it.

You don't know who you enemies are anymore.


reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 09:10 PM by jdub297
reply to post by Dermo


Once again, your powers of reason amaze:

You are not making concessions ... .
...
Everyone has to make concessions.


I know, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

No one will accuse you of that.

Except, of course, your 'foolishly consistent' refusal to acknowledge reality.

Giving up position in negotiation does not "make friends" or peace. You obviously have no knowledge of history, diplomacy or international "relations."

You may not realize this, but we've HAD "relations and peace" with Russia and Eastern Europe for almost as long as you've been alive.

We didn't earn it by being weak, or making unilateral concessions.

Sprechen ze Deutsche (other than what you've learned thru German electronica)? If not, that's because we didn't capitulate or concede where Neville Chamberlain DID.

We, the German führer and chancellor, and the British prime minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognising that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for our two countries and for Europe.

"We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German naval agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again. We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe. My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British prime minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time ...


Neville Chamberlain, address of 30 September, 1938.

When Hitler demanded the German-speaking areas of Czechoslovakia, Chamberlain caved in. Hitler went a step further, occupying and partitioning the remainder of Czechoslovakia in early 1939. Less than a year after Chamberlain's declaration of "peace for our time," Hitler nevertheless attacked Poland, and WWII began in Europe.

You really don't get it, do you?

jw



reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 05:14 AM by Dermo
reply to post by jdub297


You are taking my two sentences re: Concessions and placing them in a single context which they were not intended for. If you read that again without trying to find a way to insult me or my intelligence, then you may actually get past your stubbornness in this subject and possibly see my point.

Is the defense shield installed yet? No? Then why are you kicking up such a fuss? All you did is cancel the plans.. so did the Russians. If the US wants more from Russia, ie. Support on the Iran issue, it will need to do something to earn that support.. simple as.

As I said, I see your points but I am not going to agree with you because what I see in your arguments is nationalism and the reasoning of an American style dented imperialist ego. So if you see that as a reason to try and insult me and make assumptions about my knowledge.. work away. Water off a ducks back.

Remember, Im not from your country so don't see things your way. I 100% think Obama was correct to do what he did, so does the vast majority of the EU. The main leaders Brown, Sarcozy & Merkel have all expressed their support for the move. The opinions of Polish & Czech tabloids are as important as the opinions of any other tabloids.. ie, Sensationalism sells.


Putin and Medvedev cut off gas supplies to Eastern and Central Europe.


Russia cut off gas to the Ukraine, which in turn affected eastern Europe.. and only some of the EU. What is your point? That this is Russian aggression towards the EU? It was simple capitalism.. no more, no less. Business is business.. No point in telling me I know nothing about the real world simply because you see conspiracies everywhere.

Re: Chamberlain quote:
I hope you realize that the US is viewed as the one who took all it could for the past few decades. Any US concessions now will be viewed as favorable by the rest of the world. The fact that you cant see this just shows that you love your country and its power which is fair enough. But if you feel the need to try and belittle me for pointing this out....

Ja, Ich spreche Deutsch, Ich bin jetzt in Berlin. Außerdem, Elektronische Musik Selten hat Worte.

The whole WW2 thing is waay old. You point means absolutely nothing to me even though Yanks keep bringing it up. The fact that English is not my country's native language even though I am forced to speak it because of an Invasion and occupation means that if I was speaking German now, it would make absolutely no difference.

Finally: So what you are saying is that by the US not installing this missile defense system in Poland, and by possibly making concessions to other powers in order to gain allies and support for extra sanctions and a possible invasion of Iran... that the Russians will start WW3? Because, sorry, that makes no sense whatsoever.

As I said, we are not going to agree with each other so instead of trying to insult me in order to somehow prove that you are correct, why don't you just accept the fact that some people have a different mindset or opinion that you. Take a leaf out of your own book and """""""Deny Ignorance""""""".

Over and out.


[edit on 19/9/09 by Dermo]


reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 08:06 AM by jdub297
reply to post by Dermo
So what you are saying is that by the US not installing this missile defense system in Poland, and by possibly making concessions to other powers in order to gain allies and support for extra sanctions and a possible invasion of Iran... that the Russians will start WW3?


No. All I've said is that unilateral concessions invite further concession.

Scrappping the Czeck and Polish agreements is not a sign of "peace;" or, is Obama a liar?. He framed the concession in terms of deploying a better, more effective system.

Did you not notice that? How is that "peace"ful?

(Of course, everyone, here and abroad, recognizes that as the lie; merely an empty promise to appease more hawkish critics.)

Putin's immediate response confirms this basic fact of international relations and diplomacy.

Some point to the withdrawal of "the threat to depoy the Iskander" in Kaliningrad as a "conceesion.

They offer nothing. They've been "threatening" to deploy the SS-26 for years. The SS-26 is a mobile system. By not driving the trucks to Kalilingrad, they have delayed "deployment" by a matter of hours, at best.
They could've done it at anytime. Luckily, they haven't been able to afford the manpower and materiel to do so.

The Russian navy retains the Baltic capabilities it has had since 1989.

No concession at all in the scheme of things.

jw


reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 12:33 PM by burdman30ott6
reply to post by Dermo


My main problem with your statements and comparisons stem from the fact that I am a proud American. This country, America, has everything we need to remain the top dog for as long as we ish it. The problem is we have placed the human equivalent to a popcorn fart in the highest office we have and he is throwing us to the wolves. The past 10 years, with imbeciles inside this country whining and crying about how much money we were spending on millitary endeavors and about how we were on an unsustainable path and just a couple of years from insolvency... BULLCRAP! The past year has proven that we could have been spending trillions more on our millitary and on increasing our might with minimal effect on our overall finances. In the past year we have wasted well over $3 Trillion dollars on corporate bailouts and appeasements thanks to President Retard-O now sitting in that once hallowed White House.

Imagine if that money had been used to actually strengthen our millitary.

Your comparisons of France and the UK are moot mostly because France and the UK lost their positions of dominance because other nations surged ahead of them, not so much because they intentionally humbled themselves to allow other nations to catch up (as this worthless ass is currently doing to us.) My God, not even Jimmy Carter was this spineless.
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