Put Yourself Here

reply to post by AccessDenied

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My point more succinctly is what if you are part of a group that is singled out by the government. Whether you are Muslim, Christian, black, white, conservative, liberal, or just like to wear red sox. How can you assimilate into a culture that has you pegged as public enemy #1? That is a scenario that may well come to pass, even in this country. How to hide in plain sight, and have some sort of life other than mere existence? It may well be a more viable topic than other more read postings here. However this is not necessarily a testosterone driven post about how big is yours?[knife]. So I really expect few strong discussion points to be posted here. There is more to survival than just meeting basic needs. I am one that has been there and done that. I have enough knowledge and proven experience to survive in the wilderness with no problem, but what if I want to continue with some other form of civilized living, and contribute to society?

respectfully

reluctantpawn

I would most definitely turn myself in immediately and have them conduct tests proving that there is nothing in my system or stomach that would match the DNA / blood composition of a person.

reply to post by reluctantpawn

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There is a HUGE difference between surviving by oneself, and trying to survive as a group. There is also a difference between being hunted by every citizen in a country, and being tracked down by the government.

If you wanted to discuss how to survive as a group being "hunted" by the government, I think you should have taken a different approach. The latter has nothing to do with your opening paragraph in this thread.

reply to post by lpowell0627

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There was nothing posted about groups, this was to be an exercise for the individual. Survival as a group in this scenario simply would not be possible. Could one be made so vile by TPTB that everyone in the country would be looking for them? I think that is a distinct possibility. We must only look as far as Randy Weaver before he was cleared or the Branch Davidians. What of the Menonite group that was displaced by the government? their only evidence was from an anonymous tip? We as patriots and citizens must be made aware of the possibility of such an encounter. The long term implications of surviving and even thriving in such a hostile landscape needs to be discussed.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by lpowell0627

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Do you really think that charges such as these would be that easily cleared? Do you even think that you would be allowed to live long enough to give yourself up? How many people have we seen killed be the police forces of this country for minimal offenses, what about charges so vile they turn the stomach. do you believe what the media puts out? Would you try and convict someone accused of such a heinous crime before you heard their side of the story? How many people out in the real word would soak those accusations up like a sponge and believe every word that was put out? Look past the story line for a moment and focus on the scenario.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by AccessDenied

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AD, what the original poster is speaking on, is called, black propaganda.

It would be a Government's ultimate dirty trick of deception, to make the mass populace believe anything it had to, in order to stop someone who might actually defeat them, or know way too much for their liking.

Ultimately, it is the last ditch effort, of a sad, sadistic, and ultimately evil Government.

Lee Harvey Oswald, being a patsy, is a perfect example, framed for a murder he did not commit, half the populace believes the man an insane "lone nut", while the other half believes their Government committed a heinous act of treason against the people and the nation at the expense of a man who did not hold the rifle that killed one of our greatest President's.

The reason?

Money, power, and keeping Kennedy from tearing apart the Federal Reserve.

The Government, any government for that matter, will do anything, to gain, and retain power.

Including murdering a sitting President and selling a fable as fact.

Martin Luther King Jr is another perfect example.

I have watched ATS for about four years now, and I would say at least a 1/3 of ATS'ers would get this kind of treatment if it was necessary for the Government to shut them up.

Another 1/3 would disappear altogether, whether through F.E.M.A., "car accidents", or apparent "suicides".

The other 1/3 would be left alone, because they discredit themselves.

The 1% left over?

Either they are Intelligence Agency, or know how to handle themselves.


[edit on 18-9-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

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I am really thinking it is a lesson in futility trying to get people to think outside the box. I get so tired of reading about peoples kit, guns and bug out location, yet no one seems to grasp the true concepts of survival in what might be a given scenario. Even on the survival forum I see people giving up and trusting in the government. I had hoped this thread might go from basic survival, to living and thriving in a hostile environment, to eventually mounting a resistance movement. Perhaps I had the right idea but the wrong execution. Perhaps people still just do not get it.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

While I can see your original intent through the content, every person has their own unique set of experiences, based on their education level, life experience, and as well their unique perspective.

Unfortunately, forming a resistance, if done in the wrong sort of way, would be a violation of the terms and conditions of this website.

Look for people to agree or disagree, and post how you can, as not everyone thinks the same.

I am an in the box, out of the box, and smash the box and start over person.

Not everyone can think outside their own parameters, so do feel discouraged.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

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I truly have no intent to violate T&C. But to think there could be no other reason to have to E&E is perplexing. Perhaps you must be evil to understand evil. If that is the case there is little hope for me. I think I will go back to posting about things to do with a garbage bag, and related posts.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn

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Thanks for this OP, i think it is a very possible scenario you are painting here,maybe not the actual start, but the survival part.
The odds of something like this happening to some one is not lower than many of the other sitX examples.

Maybe many people choose the easy escape form this scenario so they do not have to think about this possibly happening to them.

I dont know about the group forming thing.
But i know that i dream a lot of times about your survival scenario.
It does not start in the way you scetch, not yet anyway, but the rest is practicly identical.

Again i think this scanario is very real and would be worth to discuss.

Reluctantpawn,
This is a very frightening scenerio. And one that I think is very plausible for anyone of us who "know too much."

My question is how do you survive in a world without your identity?

Already people are being turned down on jobs because of their credit score. You can't find a place to live without filling out forms for background checks. And already some of the shelters and food banks are requiring fingerprints for data base because too many people have "worked the system" and many using these services are criminals.

If you do go underground, wouldn't your associations be mostly criminal element? And couldn't that in itself be dangerous to your exposure? Wouldn't regular folk be suspicious about your lack of disclosure of simple identity questions?

How would you avoid setting off red flags as you move about?

And thus the trap is laid.

You all just gave yourselves away! This is obviously an attempt to gain tactical information on you so that when the time comes, They will have the upper hand.

A properly paranoid person would have thought through similar framing scenarios and already would have a plan.

The choice is actually a very, very simple one.

Are you willing to kill and/or die to protect yourself from injustice?

Once that has been decided, you'd be surprised how easily your next choice will be, and the one after that...

reply to post by Alethea

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That appears to be some of the issues that come up. How to live an ethical life while trying to live on the run. As I said earlier there are actually quite a few employment options where cash is still preferred. I mentioned earlier about joining a carnival. There are a lot of good things here, or at least used to be. They travel alot, so there is no permanent address, the usually pay in cash, and they ask few questions.

You can give up ever having a typical 9-5 job. You also will never own another home. At least under your name. Be advised that putting down roots anywhere increase your chance of discovery exponentially. A bank account is out of the question. There can be no ties with any form standardized system, especially anything that is electronic in its tracking and billing. So give up insurance, cell phones, internet, banking, credit cards, drivers license, ownership of anything.

However, there are ways to avoid much of this. Don't get married. At least not legally. Use someone else to purchase everything. Get a trac-phone for communication. All the terrorist and drug runners can't be wrong. Use cash or prepaid credit cards for all purchases. learn to use free internet services.

You don't have to "be" a criminal to take advantage of their methods. You don't have to resort to illegal activities to maintain a lifestyle, but you will have to adjust to living a different lifestyle, but it doesn't have to be living in a cave, eating acorns either.

Get to know some illegal immigrants, learn to use their methods. If there are millions out there, there must be something to their methods.

It can be a rough lifestyle. But it is doable. The government is trying to shut down all loopholes, but people are learning new ways to beat the system. It will take work, ingenuity and a bit of luck. But you can live out of the way of prying eyes.

Amazingly enough it is being done all across the country. Why haven't you heard about it? First the government doesn't want it to get out that they can be beaten. Second the people living this lifestyle aren't going to let it out how they do it. If they did it would close down those doors.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by Arrowmancer

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Death and destruction do not have to be a requisite for living off the grid and away from prying government eyes. It just takes being smarter than they are.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

I'm in complete agreement. That wasn't my point. I would readily give my life for my freedom and that of my family. I know my limits. Once you truly understand what is important to you, the distance you are willing to go, everything else will fall into place. I'm not saying that anyone should do anything rash, please don't misunderstand me. But a lack of understanding of one's SELF, a lack of understanding one's own priorities... these are the largest hurdle a man will ever face.

Once you know where you stand, you can go anywhere, do anything.

After re-reading my post, it came off as a little extreme. My answer to my own question would be a resounding 'no'. I would not harm another person to protect myself from injustice. Probably for my family, though.. That may sound like cowardice, but it is firm ground to stand upon, a basis from which all other questions will be answered. I know where I'll draw the line. Many people consider the side effects, but don't put much thought into the core of the issue. IF the situation were to present itself, the moral and ethical dilemma at the crux of it can and, (from experience, I can say) usually does paralyze them into inaction. Find the foundation of judgement, the thing which you are and cannot deny. This is the key to everything in your personal life.

reply to post by reluctantpawn

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I think that there are enough people that are less willing to believe everything the government dishes out these days.

My point was, and frankly still is, if you should find yourself running from the government, I think you would find quite a number (not the majority, but enough) of people willing to help.

Even Jews found people willing to house and hide them.

And as another poster stated, 1/3 of the country still questions whether or not Oswald was the actual culprit. Wouldn't, if you were running from the government, that give you a 33% increase in assistance?

reply to post by Arrowmancer

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that makes more sense. The purpose of this post was to get people out of the mindset that survival is not about gear and TEOTWAWKI but about continuation of a lifestyle. People are too caught up in martial law and economic collapse to see other aspects of survival. There are a number of reasons a person might need to go underground to survive. I am just trying to point out that there are avenues of escape that have gone un-noticed. There are other scenarios that might entail a survival type knowledge and mindset.

There is a black market and underground economy that is larger than what people may grasp. It is a very tight lipped group and info is not free-coming. It must be sought out, because both sides are trying to keep it quiet.

By all appearances many here do not want to consider this application, maybe my tactic to get them started into free thought was a failure. The lack of replyis goes to show how few people are willing to think outside the box of stock up and buy gold.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

When I was on the run from an abusive husband many years ago I utilized many of the techniques that the OP mentions. It's especially difficult if you have small children that also have to keep the secret but it is doable.

When I hear news reports, commercials, or anything put out by the media my first question is: "Who benefits if I believe this?"

Many people have knee-jerk reactions to certain phrases or words and don't think past their emotional response.

When David Koresh was being persecuted one of my neighbors said, "Well, he said he was Jesus Christ!" She didn't finish the thought (if there even was more to the thought but in her mind that was enough justification to kill the man). Thinking we were actually having a 2-way conversation, I tried to correct her misperception. I said, "No he didn't. Some interviewer asked him about an accusation that he had impregnated an elderly woman (forgot the woman's age but it was beyond retirement age) and Koresh laughed and said, 'if I impregnated a 68 year old woman then I'm Jesus Christ'.

Has a bit of a different implication when you hear the whole story.

As far as how to survive the OP's hypothetical scenario, I don't think you could. If TPTB are that willing to get you, they will. Probably won't hear about it on the news prior to being arrested either. You'll be listening to it from your jail cell. Or you'll be shot "resisting arrest" while you're eating popcorn in your easy chair. Cops are just as prone to knee-jerk reactions as the next guy.

The way I see it, beyond the 'know yourself' rule, a person should see it as a priority to learn as much as they can. Everyone has marketable skills. Everyone can survive in hostile/alienated situations if they have a basic understanding of survival situations and the wisdom to use that knowledge properly. Your scenario was pretty gruesome and I attribute my original response as a reaction to it.

The priorities in that situation would depend on whether or not your are guilty of the crime you are being accused of. If you aren't and someone is trying to set you up, the first priority is to get out of Dodge. If you're concerned about things like this, you probably already have a plan laid out. Second priority would be to establish assets for survival. This could mean food, clothing, and shelter. Again, if you're a true paranoid, this would already be established. I know how to farm and hunt, I know the basic procedures for filtering water and how to acquire clean water if I can't filter it, and have thought about places to suitable for shelter and long-term residency. I'm certain you don't want to spend the rest of your life in exile, so I would assume that clearing your name would be another top priority. To do that, you'll need access to communications systems and some technology to analyze the data used against you, as well as an establishment of the chain of authority that will be necessary to facilitate the communication necessary to clear your name. From this point, decisions are personal ones, dependent on the situation.

Black markets are usually not required if one can learn to blend into the populace. Find somewhere they aren't likely to be recognized, disguise one's self, etc...

As I've never been in a situation quite this horrendous, nor will I give it much thought, I really can't speak with authority. There are much simpler and more effective ways to take a person into custody. I can see no reason for law-enforcement to ever go this far with a person when more efficient means are available.

reply to post by whitewave

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Having been in such a scenario where you had to hide out as such, perhaps you could offer us some info on what works and what doesn't coming from a real world perspective. Although not nearly as gruesome it could well shed some light on better ways of finding and using resources.

respectfully

reluctantpawn