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reply to post by muzzleflash

Not sure if you're familiar with, but within the York Rite there is a invite-only body called the "Holy Royal Arch Knights Templar Priest" which I believe has 33 degrees in it (although they only confer one now). Our one and only Masonic Light is a member of this group so he could clarify.

I'd have to look through my Cryptic book, but 11 isn't really relevant in the ceremonies.

reply to post by muzzleflash


33 is a significant number within the Scottish Rite. Going to the House of Temple shows that. There are references to 33 all over. There is also many other symbols and references that I think once looked into might reveal some very interesting things. But that is only one side body of masonry. The core of masonry is the blue lodge. The first three degrees. There is the beginning of all the masonic journeys. Sadly, there are some who get their third degree, and never step foot in a lodge again. Those people miss out on the real meaning of the lessons taught.

Originally posted by sweetnlow
philosophy?

Wow, are you always so purposefully obtuse?

What would be the relevance of a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason to a non-Scottish Rite Mason? Why would the non-Scottish Rite Mason even care if the other had received the 33rd Degree? Who 'outranks' who, a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason or the Master of a Lodge?

Originally posted by muzzleflash
That is a really good question. I am not exactly sure if there is any relevance directly, and I have to feel my way through this based entirely on intuition.

There really is no relevance to the non-Scottish Rite member as the degrees do not confer any type of authority on the main body of Masonry (The Blue Lodge). The head of the Scottish Rite for the State of New Jersey is in my lodge and technically I 'outrank' him when we are in lodge together.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by sweetnlow
philosophy?

Wow, are you always so purposefully obtuse?

What would be the relevance of a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason to a non-Scottish Rite Mason? Why would the non-Scottish Rite Mason even care if the other had received the 33rd Degree? Who 'outranks' who, a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason or the Master of a Lodge?

Isn't it supposedly true that no rank outranks the other, or no order is better than the others?

And cannot one become a fellow within all of these orders simultaneously if accepted into them?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by muzzleflash
That is a really good question. I am not exactly sure if there is any relevance directly, and I have to feel my way through this based entirely on intuition.

There really is no relevance to the non-Scottish Rite member as the degrees do not confer any type of authority on the main body of Masonry (The Blue Lodge). The head of the Scottish Rite for the State of New Jersey is in my lodge and technically I 'outrank' him when we are in lodge together.

Another question if you don't mind.

Isn't the other Lodge the "Red"?

I ask because although there is a ton of information all over the internet, much of it appears bias and skewed towards either obscuring things or painting them in very opinionated manners. So it's kind of hard to determine what is true and what is false, so I of course take things with a grain of salt and don't take things too seriously because I don't know who to trust.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

There is the beginning of all the masonic journeys. Sadly, there are some who get their third degree, and never step foot in a lodge again. Those people miss out on the real meaning of the lessons taught.

I once read that there are two types of persons, and I do find that it makes a lot of sense and holds much truth.

The most common type of person is one who just memorizes and repeats, without actually caring to learn or understand or find more.

And there is the other type which is more rare, that seeks to learn more and attempts to gain understanding within all of what they find.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Not sure if you're familiar with, but within the York Rite there is a invite-only body called the "Holy Royal Arch Knights Templar Priest" which I believe has 33 degrees in it (although they only confer one now). Our one and only Masonic Light is a member of this group so he could clarify.

I'd have to look through my Cryptic book, but 11 isn't really relevant in the ceremonies.

I only know what very little I have found so far.

The other night I found this link: yorkrite.com, and within the list it does indeed list the "The Order of Holy Royal Arch Knight Templar Priest".

I sense that this link indeed lists what may indeed be factual information.

An invitational body composed of highly dedicated and long serving York Rite Masons. Membership requires affiliation with the Knights Templar, and members must be Past Eminent Commanders of a Knight Templar Commandery. Originally, this body conferred 33 degrees, but now only one is conferred. Membership is limited to 27 members per presiding body. The presiding body is a Tabernacle, and the presiding officer is a Preceptor (titled Eminent).

If there is anything about this link that you think I should know (or not trust about it's sources), please let me know if you don't mind.

And by "only conferring one degree now", does this mean that simply gaining membership within this order is the one and only degree?

Also this appears to be the HRAKTP official website. (?)
HRAKTP.org

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I once read that there are two types of persons, and I do find that it makes a lot of sense and holds much truth.

The most common type of person is one who just memorizes and repeats, without actually caring to learn or understand or find more.

And there is the other type which is more rare, that seeks to learn more and attempts to gain understanding within all of what they find.

that is very true. The funny thing, is that sometimes, the knowledge finds you. I don't think I personally would have had the quest for knowledge that I have now, had it not been for the members of this site that have mentored me along the way. In between Augustus' drunken ramblings, he throws some good knowledge my way at times. Josh and ML are like walking masonic encyclopedias. Most masons are not as fortunate as I am to have these resources.

Also I found something confusing.

On the first link at yorkrite, it says about the HRAKTP :

Membership is limited to 27 members per presiding body.

The presiding body is a Tabernacle,

Then at the HRAKTP.org site it says:

The limit of Regular Members in a Tabernacle is 33.

Is there a technical difference between "members" and "Regular Members"?
It's just an inconsistency that I noticed, or perhaps a differentiation within terminology.

Another guess is that it may have changed over time and the website failed to update the information recently.

Originally posted by network dude
Most masons are not as fortunate as I am to have these resources.

I consider myself fortunate to have all of you here willing to share your knowledge and insights with me as well, because without you guys I would be far behind where I am now in my quest for knowledge and understanding.

Although in the past I have been misled and totally misunderstood many concepts, I believe that I have come to recognize the error of my previous misconceptions. Due to my natural instincts of open mindedness, I am now progressing quickly and learning hundreds of concepts a day, and I have to admit I have never had so much fun as I am these days.

A major issue with that is that many people appear to speak from ignorance because they have misunderstood the translation of terminology and were so invested in their prior beliefs that they would refuse to change those beliefs even when the truth revealed them to be totally misled. It is probably an "ego issue" that is holding them back, and of course it holds us all back but I am personally seeking to minimize it's grip upon me so that it will not stunt my chances of learning new wonderful concepts.

I personally was misled into viewing things from a one sided point of view, when in reality there is always a duality within all things and that there are always counter views which I should remain open to.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Isn't it supposedly true that no rank outranks the other, or no order is better than the others?

In lodge the Worshipful Master is the defacto head of the lodge and every Mason is obligated to follow his orders (within reason). At the Grand Lodge level there are the Junior and Senior Grand Wardens, the Deputy Grand Master and the Grand Master. They technically 'ourank' all other Masons in the State. On a side note the Master of the Lodge can refuse entrance to all of them (a foolish move) as in his lodge he outranks everyone.

And cannot one become a fellow within all of these orders simultaneously if accepted into them?

Yes, but my point was for the non-Scottish Rite member the 33rd Degree has no relevance or 'rank'. The authority it confers is only relevant to the side order of the Scottish Rite and then only if you are an active (e.g. voting) 33rd.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Another question if you don't mind.

Isn't the other Lodge the "Red"?

The Red Lodge typically refers to the York Rite as the color red is used by this side order.

I ask because although there is a ton of information all over the internet, much of it appears bias and skewed towards either obscuring things or painting them in very opinionated manners. So it's kind of hard to determine what is true and what is false, so I of course take things with a grain of salt and don't take things too seriously because I don't know who to trust.

I am not in the York Rite but Ksigmason and Masonic Light are and can offer more insight to the degrees and symbolism.

Originally posted by network dude
In between Augustus' drunken ramblings, he throws some good knowledge my way at times.

Thanks...I think.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Ok thanks for the clarification. That sure makes things a lot easier to comprehend.
I appreciate your assistance in learning more about this fascinating subject.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
A major issue with that is that many people appear to speak from ignorance because they have misunderstood the translation of terminology and were so invested in their prior beliefs that they would refuse to change those beliefs even when the truth revealed them to be totally misled. It is probably an "ego issue" that is holding them back, and of course it holds us all back but I am personally seeking to minimize it's grip upon me so that it will not stunt my chances of learning new wonderful concepts.

I completely agree with this sentiment as it is often rampant on this and other sites. Mistranslation, misrepresentation or just outright ignorance keep people from actually expanding their knowledge base. Typically it has to do with ego as people refuse to admit their preconceived notions were incorrect and view such admissions as a sign of weakness instead of broadening their view.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Typically it has to do with ego as people refuse to admit their preconceived notions were incorrect and view such admissions as a sign of weakness instead of broadening their view.

And herein lies the problem we all face from time to time.

The only way to become 'strong' is to discover and admit to 'weakness'.
By facing one's weakness it enables us to gain strength.
The only way to overcome an obstacle is to recognize it for what it is, and adapt to it.

This is one of the key reasons we humans are so versatile in the first place, and allowed us to advance to where we are now.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I am still learning a lot, but from what I can tell so far, if you get a pentacle and turn it 33 degrees to the side, it will become a pentagram. This is a mathematical concept.

Well, if you're going for the pure math, you'd actually have to turn it 36°... The angle between points of a regular 5-sided figure are 72°. (360°/5) So if the point up is at 0°, the first one clockwise from that is at 72°, the second at 144°. To turn the symbol so that that second point is pointing down (180°), you'd have to rotate the figure 36°. If you only rotated it 33°, the bottom point would be at 177°…

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Also I found something confusing.

On the first link at yorkrite, it says about the HRAKTP :

Membership is limited to 27 members per presiding body.

The presiding body is a Tabernacle,

Then at the HRAKTP.org site it says:

The limit of Regular Members in a Tabernacle is 33.

Is there a technical difference between "members" and "Regular Members"?
It's just an inconsistency that I noticed, or perhaps a differentiation within terminology.

I'm not familiar with the institution in question, so this is merely a guess, but perhaps the 27 "members" are non-officers, and there are 6 officers in that body? Or they changed it at some point and didn't correct all their literature. Though that seems unlikely somehow. (depending on how old that order is, at least... one generally doesn't screw with tradition that drastically...)

All of this is typically confusing to most Masons, so it is certainly understandable that non-Masons will find it confusing also.

The Grand Master is the supreme Masonic authority in his jurisdiction, and he serves a constitutional term after having been elected to that office by majority vote of subordinate Lodge delegates. The worshipul master is the highest authority in his Lodge, and is only outranked by the Grand Master. These rankings are only temporary; after their terms have expired, these people go back to being regular members.

The same goes for the Chapters, Councils, and Commanderies, which are governed by Grand Chapters, Grand Councils, and Grand Commanderies. The York Rite also has various honorory and invitational societies. The Holy Royal Arch Knight Templar Priests that you mentioned is an example of one. Tabernacles of HRAKTP's usually meet only once or twice per year. These meetings are generally banquets, and one of the members takes on the role of guest speaker, where he will speak on some subject of interest to Masons or Templars.