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The Desperation and Dangers of the Far-Right Extreme Evangelical Sub-Culture

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posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 12:52 AM
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Still reading both of these threads that Benevolent Heretic posted, and trying to decide if I want to really comment in depth or not. I do want to say thank you for trying to open the door to honest and intelligent debate. I was only aware of the one thread until this evening so sorry about that.

I Probably won't much comment as I am beginning to learn that calm discussion with certain people is an impossible dream. But I did want to make a tiny comment to the below reference to Hitler from useless eaters.


Originally posted by useless eaters

, is like Adolph Hitler being a creditable spokesman for democracy.



Edited for clarity

It is actually the Bush family that has a history of being involved with Hitler. Republicans, not Democrats or Independents.

Now, that is a fact we cannot escape from, well unless you would like to rewrite history. So if you voted for either Bush, remember the history of this family, and take a little time to actually think about who and what you are actually in support of.

Please don't take that as me trying to be hateful as I am definitely not.

Personally, I have some R and some D leanings. For one, I support the right of Americans to have and carry guns, but I also support a public option health care. One being a right leaning belief, and one being a left leaning belief. Go figure, I can support both parties at times and refuse to vote only along party lines.

I do agree that both sides have extremist, and I wish that people could see that and stop the horrid hate and fear mongering that seems to have been rampant in this country for the past many many years. It get's us nowhere except deeper and deeper into a chasm that if we keep sliding down, we will not be able to climb back out of. And all of us will be hurting.

Here is a google search link for bush hitler connection. I am sure that everyone is capable of doing further research.

www.google.com...

Harm None
Peace




posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 08:38 AM
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reply to post by amazed
 


I, too, as I suspect many good Americans, come from a family history of crossing party lines to vote for/support political candidates. Personally, there are guns in my household, I demand a public option, would rather see single payer, have views of immigration that neither side addresses adequately, am not an atheist but my best friend was raised as an atheist. I believe in capitalism, but not what it has turned into, corporatism.

Here is an example which I think illustrates great things can happen, when both sides work like grownups on issues. I belong to an organization, whose former president accomplished much, because he was willing to listen to our opponents, go beyond the stereotypes of the "other side", try to understand their concerns, and work hard to ensure deals acceptable to both sides. He never badmouthed our opposition. He was a successful small business man, who devoted his time and talents for the good of all.

Along comes election time. There was a faction who felt our pres was "weak" and "gave in" too much to the other side. They did not even understand completely our group's bylaws. They ended up doing good election organizing and won.

Along comes their first newsletter, filled with a long childish rant complete with name calling, religion, and a threatening tone. On a personal level, these people were fun to be around, but the venom they spewed in that diatribe was enough to sicken members on BOTH sides. They certainly proved clueless about what it takes to effect good change.

Who knows...our past pres could have shared their personal views but set them aside to get great deals accomplished. Acting like a bully might seem like being "strong", but in the end it degrades everyone and won't accomplish great deals. Hate, religion, name calling, and threats have no place even in an organization at this level.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 08:50 AM
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I think this says it all about the hard right's fantasies about Obama...

www.doonesbury.com...

but its probably over their heads.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 10:35 AM
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And here is an accurate representation of the left's devotion to Obama..



Insert chant of your own choice.

[edit on 27-9-2009 by jsobecky]



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 10:41 AM
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Hardly.

There are many on the left that are not thrilled with Obama...I am one but I am also not ready to write him off yet.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by grover
 


There are a lot of voters, both of liberal persuasion and conservative, who feel as you do, grover. You are in good company.


grover, can you remember the supporters of Nixon who, even past his resignation, insisted on his innocence of abuse of power? As I have said elsewhere, people see life through their own filters.

Liberals have been accused of "flip flopping" by a set of people who view changing one's mind as a weakness. But, as you and I probably see it, "The willingness to change one's mind in the light of new evidence is a sign of rationality not weakness." (S. Sutherland, psychologist)

Liberals are viewed as being cult-like towards Obama by the extreme right, through their filter of a preference for authoritarian power to give voice to their concerns. For some, Reagan's popularity probably did border on cult-like, rather than merely highly popular.

"Devotion" connotes a religious overtone, again through a filter of religion.

Obama's feet must be held respectfully to the fire by voters. What must not be allowed to happen is for corporate lobbyists with their money (legalized bribery, US brand of backshish) to join in. Unless voters and politicians decouple their car from the corporate train, my fellow citizens of any political persuasion will continue to find their quantity AND quality of life in America continue to erode.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by desert
 

My current signature says it all.

There are several intelligent and articulate conservatives here on ATS...Redneck is one and Johnny2127 is another whom I can respect despite disagreeing on things and actually agree with on others...

There are liberals on here who are just as fanatic as those on the hard right...and I know the hard right members on here think I am...but that is because they are so rigid that they cannot see beyond their blinders...

Am I a staunch liberal? Yes I am and proud of it...but part of being a liberal is knowing that you can sometimes be wrong and that other people can educate you...even those who are your polar opposite politically...

I have been educated by Johnny2127 and Redneck and Semperfortis and others who are willing to put their ideals aside and listen...just as I can.

But when you are so inflexible as to be unable to tell an analogy from an actual threat as it were because it is from the other wing as it were then you probably are never going to learn anything...

I can tell which ones are chronic listeners to mush loosebowels and the other blahblahblah's...they start parroting the same phrases...my father may he rest in peace was that way...then he would claim that he comes to his own conclusions.

I disagree with Obama over many things...Afghanistan and the bank bailouts are two that immediately come to mind...but they are also holdovers from the bush minor administration...a fact the hard right loathes to admit.

I don't like his waffling on the public option and I don't like the Democrats lack of a spine on it either...without the public option all we are getting is health insurance reform and mark my words if that is all we get the left will abandon Obama because we all know the insurance companies will undermine it every chance they can.

I don't like his upholding some of the most odious of the bush minor administration policies such as the patriot act and his back pedaling on climate treaties and Wall street reforms...

I could go on. But the point is I am not a slavish devotee and I never was. He was not my first choice and I have never had any illusions about him...he is a politician with all that implies both good and bad.

I will however defend him in the face of totally ignorant and rabid attacks from the hard right...their opposition to him may very well be based on policies but their hatred of him is so visceral that there is something more there...more deep and dark. It may be race and it could be a deep hatred for all things liberal...I will not judge but I know what I think it is...after all I live in the south and I have heard the things said about him around these parts and as soon as it is out of the mouth there is the quick caveat that of course they are not racist.

Which is good...they are getting it through their pointy little heads that blatant racism is frowned upon...

And maybe if we are lucky in a few more generations it will go the way of the hard rights historical ancestor...the know nothing party.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by grover
 



I do admire, grover, your willingness to do battle. Keep up the good fight. Yes, in generations, maybe sooner, humanity will be better off for the efforts today.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 07:25 PM
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I really do appreciate the intelligent debate and discussion. I want to be in this club, too.


grover, I rarely quote this big, but everything you said here rings SO true for me that I just had to.


Originally posted by grover
I disagree with Obama over many things...Afghanistan and the bank bailouts are two that immediately come to mind...but they are also holdovers from the bush minor administration...a fact the hard right loathes to admit.

I don't like his waffling on the public option and I don't like the Democrats lack of a spine on it either...without the public option all we are getting is health insurance reform and mark my words if that is all we get the left will abandon Obama because we all know the insurance companies will undermine it every chance they can.

I don't like his upholding some of the most odious of the bush minor administration policies such as the patriot act and his back pedaling on climate treaties and Wall street reforms...

I could go on. But the point is I am not a slavish devotee and I never was. He was not my first choice and I have never had any illusions about him...he is a politician with all that implies both good and bad.

I will however defend him in the face of totally ignorant and rabid attacks from the hard right...


But even as much as I dislike some of the stuff Obama's doing, I still like some of the others and I still like him, so I get branded a flaming liberal, or a left wing nut, even though I'm not. That's another tactic of the extremes of the left and right. To make anyone who's NOT an extremist like them into an extremist on the other "side". It's a divisive tactic and I just don't "get" the payoff. What do people get out of placing anyone who disagrees with them at the FAR end of the opposite ideology?

In reality, we are all sprinkled along a continuum from left to right and we don't occupy just one point along that continuum. Depending on the issue, we are all over the place. Maybe it's mostly on the left side, but I know I slide over the center, sometimes quite far.
But because I don't "hate Obama", I am a bleeding heart (covert) liberal.

[edit on 27-9-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 07:42 PM
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As I said earlier you go far enough in either direction and you come around to the other side...left becomes right and right left.

While I am not happy with everything Obama has done so far...since no politician speaks for me and what I consider important...I didn't expect him to.

I am not ready to write him off though...9 months is not enough to know what he can and cannot accomplish...at this stage of the game he reminds me of Clinton...eager to please everyone and be everything to everyone.

Still he has not been seriously tested and then and only then will we get full measure of the man.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by grover
 



My current signature says it all.


Absolutely. It shows your narrowminded hatred of viewpoints that oppose yours.


There are several intelligent and articulate conservatives here on ATS...Redneck is one and Johnny2127 is another whom I can respect despite disagreeing on things and actually agree with on others...


Trying to drum up support and sympathy for your agenda, eh grover?


There are liberals on here who are just as fanatic as those on the hard right...and I know the hard right members on here think I am...but that is because they are so rigid that they cannot see beyond their blinders...


As you said, your signature says it all.


Am I a staunch liberal? Yes I am and proud of it...but part of being a liberal is knowing that you can sometimes be wrong and that other people can educate you...even those who are your polar opposite politically...


And knowing that you can sometimes be wrong is limited to liberals, grover?

Grow up.


I have been educated by Johnny2127 and Redneck and Semperfortis and others who are willing to put their ideals aside and listen...just as I can.

But when you are so inflexible as to be unable to tell an analogy from an actual threat as it were because it is from the other wing as it were then you probably are never going to learn anything...


Once again, your signature says it all.


I disagree with Obama over many things...Afghanistan and the bank bailouts are two that immediately come to mind...but they are also holdovers from the bush minor administration...a fact the hard right loathes to admit.


There is no law that says Obama must follow Bush's policies. But he does because he cannot offer anything better.


I don't like his waffling on the public option and I don't like the Democrats lack of a spine on it either...without the public option all we are getting is health insurance reform and mark my words if that is all we get the left will abandon Obama because we all know the insurance companies will undermine it every chance they can.


Public option is the single worst thing that could be included in health reform. Including another bloated bureaucracy for taxpayers to pay for is a crime. But it is what liberals such as you want....bigger gov't, higher taxes, socialism.



I could go on. But the point is I am not a slavish devotee and I never was.


C'mon...your obsequious dedication to him is very apparent. And disgusting.



I will however defend him in the face of totally ignorant and rabid attacks from the hard right...their opposition to him may very well be based on policies but their hatred of him is so visceral that there is something more there...more deep and dark. It may be race and it could be a deep hatred for all things liberal...I will not judge but I know what I think it is...after all I live in the south and I have heard the things said about him around these parts and as soon as it is out of the mouth there is the quick caveat that of course they are not racist.

Which is good...they are getting it through their pointy little heads that blatant racism is frowned upon...


So who is racist here, grover? Your words say it all.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by grover
I didn't expect him to.


I think that's key. I read enough about him to know what to expect. Too many people heard what they wanted to hear, I think, and those are the people who are writing him off so early.


..at this stage of the game he reminds me of Clinton...eager to please everyone and be everything to everyone.


Another thing I'm not crazy about...



[edit on 28-9-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 12:45 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 





jsobecky, thank you for such a wonderful example of what I said in my earlier post. Maybe you can explain why you wish to place grover in the opposite extreme from you... What do you get from that? I know it's a divisive tactic, but what is the payoff for you? Just curious.


Don't even try to involve me in your little drama games, BH. I'm not interested.

Maybe you might ask grover the same questions. And yourself, while you're at it. I haven't seen such an effort to cause havoc and infighting here as I've seen coming from you.



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 05:33 AM
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reply to post by jsobecky
 

Your comments are merely your assumptions about me and are wrong on all points Josbecky, especially the last...and as such are not worth commenting on so go ahead and believe what you want about me...

BTW pointy little heads is not racist...anyone regardless of race can be a pinhead...if that is what you think racism is you have no clue...I was married into a Afro-Eurasian family (that is black, Chinese and White in case the term confuses you) and I saw real racism first hand directed toward my late wife and step kids so don't you dare assume to lecture me about what racism is...again you have no clue.

Ya know Josbecky you claiming that I am racist really bites my butt...and it is total bullhooey...

The argument goes that if you object to someone's intolerance that means that you yourself is intolerant and that is total poo. The religious right has used that argument to those who object to their homophobia and its bullhooey coming from them...to attribute your bias and bigotry to God to justify your own is the height of arrogance...and then to claim that those who object to it are themselves intolerant is projection and nothing more.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by grover]



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 08:02 AM
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reply to post by grover
 





BTW pointy little heads is not racist...anyone regardless of race can be a pinhead...if that is what you think racism is you have no clue...


Sure it is grover, when used in the context you used it in:


I will however defend him in the face of totally ignorant and rabid attacks from the hard right...their opposition to him may very well be based on policies but their hatred of him is so visceral that there is something more there...more deep and dark. It may be race and it could be a deep hatred for all things liberal...I will not judge but I know what I think it is...after all I live in the south and I have heard the things said about him around these parts and as soon as it is out of the mouth there is the quick caveat that of course they are not racist.

Which is good...they are getting it through their pointy little heads that blatant racism is frowned upon...


You oh so slickly imply that certain people are racist without having the guts to come right out and state it.

Soft whispers, clucking of the tongue, shaking off the head :shk:.... all meant to suggest that the only conclusion one could reach is that there is racism at the core of anybody who dares to disagree with Obama...

Nobody's fooled, grover.

And marrying interracially while living in the south does not make you an expert.



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 09:18 AM
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To get back on topic and bring this thread out of the gutter a little...

This is another interview of Frank Schaeffer by DL Hughley that I found interesting.

A quote: "Rush Limbaugh's telling the truth when he says he wants him (Obama) to fail. And these people are ideological enough that they'd rather take our whole country down and be proved right than be patriotic Americans and stand up and do the thing that every American that loves this country would do right now, which is to support this president whether you voted for him or not."

Now I don't agree that people should support Obama if they don't want to, but I do agree that wanting him to fail regardless of outcome to this country is a very un-American attitude to have. The Damn the Country, Obama Must Fail crowd is downright unpatriotic and anti-American, in my opinion.



Here is an editorial with some ideas that I think are important to remember to keep my own sanity. I don't approve of the title, but the ideas are solid, in my opinion. It's a good read as he goes into detail about each option.

Three Basic Options in Talking with a Extremist Subculture Member (my title)



The first is to assail them with facts, truths, scientific data, the commonsensical obviousness of it all. You do this in the very reasonable expectation that it will nudge them away from the ledge of their more ridiculous and paranoid misconceptions because, well, they're facts, after all, and who can dispute those?
...
Option two is to try to speak their language, dumb yourself down, engage on the idiot's level as you try to figure out how their minds work -- or more accurately, don't work -- so you can better empathize and find a shred of common ground and maybe, just maybe, inch the human experiment forward.
...
The absolute best way to speak to complete idiots is, of course, not to speak to them at all.


I still slip sometimes, but since I saw the video in the OP, I've found it much easier to just walk on by...



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 10:34 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by jsobecky
 

I was living in New England...specifically Maine... when I was married thank you very much...another thing you were wrong about.

And as I said pointy little head is not racist unless you think that only white people (which I am as well) are the only ones with pointy little heads or are for the matter the only ones who are right wing, conservative or racist...none of which is true which makes your statement once again false.

I think anyone who is truly racist a moron so I am referring to racists as having pointy little heads...not just right wingers, conservatives or Republicans...but racists...all racists...period.

You are striking out buddy.

When I hear the idiot (and yes he is an idiot and not because he is white but because he is obnoxious and ignorant, proud of it and has said so) who lives down the street refer to Obama as the n----- president then quickly adds ya know I'm not bigoted that's just what we call them down here...do you think I am fooled?

Or when I read someone on here say... I don't know why I can't call em n----- when they (actually just some) call themselves that?

Why would you want to call anyone that in the first place? Those who say such things are not kidding anybody.

For your information since you seem ignorant about such matters there are two forms of racism...let us call them racism with a small r and Racism with a big R.

Racism with a small r is personal bigotry and in that context anyone can be bigoted. It is a human failing and not one to be condoned...period. No matter what your political leanings are.

The racism with a big R is institutionalized racism...the type which enslaved blacks...and after free kept them down with Jim Crow laws then fought civil rights...it is the type of racism where people of color are targeted by police in profiles...and mind you I said people of color which can mean black...Hispanic or Mid-Eastern...simply for their appearance...institutional racism is when a school will inform a white parent their kid has been skipping school in less than a week but take three months to inform a black parent. Or when a bunch of kids get caught trespassing on a construction site...the only one arrested is the one black kid...both of which happened to my step kids.

Those are examples of institutionalized racism because such behavior is still endemic within the system. I would like to say it has changed...and in some ways it has...but racial bias runs deep...especially here in the south.

Racism with a big R is a social failing and like the personal one should never be condoned regardless of your political leanings...period.

Obama's victory was not proof that racism is dead...if you think that ask a black person or anyone of color for that matter.

Obama won, not because he was black but despite of it. People were sick of the Republicans after eight years of bush minor and McCain offered nothing but more of the same.

One day my late wife and I were in a grocery store check out line and the woman in front of us kept turning around and glowering at her. Finally she turned around and shouted..."I am sick and tired of you people coming over here and taking our jobs...why don't you just go back to where you came from."

I was aghast...My late wife rose to her full height of 5 feet and looked the woman square in the eye and said in a perfect New York accent..."What? You want me to move back to Brooklyn?"

The woman deflated like a punctured balloon and slunk away to another check out line.

I am sure in your world view that woman wasn't racist...but was merely expressing her objection to current immigration policies.


[edit on 28-9-2009 by grover]



posted on Sep, 29 2009 @ 03:07 PM
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I am an independent, and try respect others. I read, and educate myself as much as I can. I have only one small point to make. The far-right evangelical-sub culture seems to spread more hate than any thing else. These are the God fearing types. I thought being a christian was about Love. So why all the hate.? Why all the condemnation? Seems to me that they hate everyone that does not agree with there narrow-minded views on how everyone else should live. I do not understand how ANYONE listens to Rush or any of the rest of these people.? He has a right to say what he thinks, that is the american way, but it is frighting that people actually listen to this guy, or any of these people. Just my opinion



posted on Oct, 3 2009 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by calstorm
From the T&C , I belive every one got a U2U with a link in it today.
1g.) Political Baiting: You will not engage in politically-charged rhetoric, politically-inspired name-calling, and related right-versus-left political bickering while posting in any topical forum or discussion thread on AboveTopSecret.com. You will not alter political candidate names or party affiliations in order to insult or deride the opposition.

Stop falling for the right vs. left trap!

[edit on 17-9-2009 by calstorm]


I beg to differ with you. IMO, some got more, some got less, for the same violation.



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