It was Paint for sure!

Originally posted by micpsi
Why do we need thermate anyway? The molten element that leaked out of the South Tower shortly before it was (ahem) blown up was not iron but lead from all the stacks of batteries used by Fuji Bank as back-up for its computers in the case of a power failure. It has been proven recently that they were housed exactly on the 79th floor where the molten metal poured out. The floor had been reinforced to support the tons of batteries. There were Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) battery rooms on some floors of the Towers and Building 7. These battery rooms supplied continuous battery power to computers if the electricity failed for any reason. These batteries contained tons of lead which melts at low temperatures [327 C (621 F)]. The heat from the fires in the debris pile could easily have melted this lead or the aluminum from the plane which were probably the metals that were seen flowing through the pile. NIST reported UPS in the 13th floor of Building 7 and the 81st floor of Tower 2. There were also quantities of lead, tin, silver and even gold used in the computer circuit boards.

So much for Dr Jones' distraction. For the simple truth see:
iamthewitness.com...

Molten lead or aluminium are both a silvery grey colour when in the liquid state and not orange to straw yellow as was the liquid metal (dare I say molten steel fits the description) pouring out of the corner of the building.

PEACE,
RK

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
It's absurd to suggest that there are two categories of people wrt a 9/11 conspiracy of the sort you envision - those who are wholly "in", who understand every aspect and are intimately involved in its organization, and the rest of us, who are wholly "out". For a plot of the magnitude you describe their must be people actively involved who are just being manipulated by more initiated actors, and there must be people who are lied to so they will fulfill their role without causing problems.

From the definition of conspiracy, "an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act," isn't it only the agreement which is illegal in a conspiracy? I'm pretty sure you DO NOT have to actually commit the crime to be guilty of a conspiracy. If a few people come up with a plan to commit an illegal act but are caught before they carry it out, they can still be charged with a conspiracy (e.g. the Bojinka plot).

So technically, whichever scenario actually happened on 911, only a relatively few were "in" on the conspiracy (i.e. the agreement to commit the illegal act) but many more were "involved" in the actual illegal act (i.e. the highjackings or possible demolition).

Why should we care about a building maintenance man who puts an "Out of Order" sign on an elevator, or a K-Mart cashier who sells someone a box cutter, or an airline employee who books a reservation for someone, or an airport screener who allows someone to board a plane? Unless of course it could be proved they voluntarily made an agreement to allow 911 to happen.

So, in my opinion, yes there are two categories of people. 1) The ones that made an agreement, whether they be Al Queda members or people in the US and 2) all the others whether through negligence, manipulation or purely being in the wrong place at the wrong time were caught up in the event.

Edited for spelling


[edit on 9-10-2009 by NIcon]

Originally posted by billybob
this is really starting to irk me.
tower elevators are shut down REGULARLY for SCHEDULED MAINTENANCE, and UNSCHEDULED MAINTENANCE.
it is ridiculous to keep throwing out this canard that you can't shut down the elevators, ever.
you do it one car at a time, "OUT OF SERVICE".

shessh, give it a rest.

Hi BillyBob,

Physically shutting down elevators is not a difficult task. I have been involved in dozens of shut downs, scheduled,unscheduled, and inspections.

No one in this thread has said that you can't shut them down. It's the process including the amount of communication involved in doing so. If you consider the amount of work it would take to access the columns through the shafts, you would need many people involved. The risks involved would be far to great to accomplish.

Regards- Dr. P

Originally posted by ImAPepper
It's the process including the amount of communication involved in doing so.

If somebody told you to shut down an elevator shaft for any stupid reason, so that any stupid kind of work could be done, what would you say the chances would be that you personally would suspect someone planting a bomb or eutectic material within the building? Would it be at the forefront in your mind, or wouldn't that make you paranoid?

reply to post by bsbray11


Very fair question. I have to put my mind set to pre- 9/11 of course.

I will tell you, and I am being 100% honest. I know all of my elevator technicians, and their supervisors, and their supervisors. If they needed to gain access, I would know it and I would be involved. I always know exactly what type of work is going to go on, as all PM work or scheduled work is communicated through me and several more. If and only If they were all a part of the plan, would they get away with it.

Also, Bsbray, I know many elevator techs. I have been working with them for over 15 years. They are VERY anal about who goes in the shafts, pits, machine rooms, and for what reason. They don't like anyone gaining access to their area. Now, I am sure that there are others that don't give a hoot. Most of the staff at the WTC were there for a long time. I believe a few were there during the original construction.

For instance: In the building where I work now, there was carpet installed in a car of a service elevator for a VIP guest. Carpet in the service elevator car!!! Big deal huh? Not really. The elevator company had to be called in to place the elevator on "independent service." They were again notified upon completion of the job. This is in a medium sized building in a medium sized city. (35+ stories 10 elevators)

I hope that answers your question.



[edit on 9-10-2009 by ImAPepper]

Originally posted by ImAPepper
I hope that answers your question.

Actually I couldn't find a straight answer to my question anywhere in your post. Even a "yes" or "no" would have been more informative imo.

I have no doubt you THINK you would know everything that would go on. I gathered your confidence on that a while ago but I seriously doubt it.

My question, again, was, do you think you would honestly suspect someone were putting a bomb or eutectic inside a building if there were any maintenance guys doing any kind of stupid work inside the shaft? I already know the answer: no, you would not suspect it. It would not seriously cross your mind. And even if it did, I really doubt you would mention it seriously to anyone else. And even if you did that, and you guys went and looked, there would be no guarantee that you would even find anything.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by ImAPepper
I hope that answers your question.

Actually I couldn't find a straight answer to my question anywhere in your post. Even a "yes" or "no" would have been more informative imo.

I have no doubt you THINK you would know everything that would go on. I gathered your confidence on that a while ago but I seriously doubt it.

My question, again, was, do you think you would honestly suspect someone were putting a bomb or eutectic inside a building if there were any maintenance guys doing any kind of stupid work inside the shaft? I already know the answer: no, you would not suspect it. It would not seriously cross your mind. And even if it did, I really doubt you would mention it seriously to anyone else. And even if you did that, and you guys went and looked, there would be no guarantee that you would even find anything.

My answer: No, sir.

Not a SOUL gets access into elevator shafts without approval. Period. I have worked in Manhattan, I have worked with elevator companies there. (including OTIS) your theory is not feasible.

If you are in the hoistways, you are a licensed worker for the company that has the elevator contract for that facility.

1- Elevator Company A has the contract for Building A.

2- Elevator Company B will not be allowed to work in Building A.

There quite possibly be certain contingencies that may allow this, but Company A will know what is going on and will be there to ensure that anyone in their hoistway will do everything to code.

What you failed to read, BsBray, is that I stated that the only way it would NOT be known, is if the contracted company (ACE in this instance) were ALL in on it. Now, before you go and say they were, please keep in mind Charles Costello died on 9/11 when he went back into the towers to attempt to rescue people.

inmemoriamonline.net...

I might suggest you look into the elevator codes in NYC and hoistway access laws. Or, you can notify The International Union of Elevator Constructors- Local One . You can start with Denis Kilduff who is the Chairman of the safety committee in local one. If you would like, contact Lenny Legotte who is the President of Local 1. [email protected]

Originally posted by ImAPepper
My answer: No, sir.

So no, you would not suspect anyone of planting anything explosive or eutectic in the buildings, and the thought would not cross your mind in a real situation?

I appreciate your honesty.

Originally posted by ImAPepper

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by ImAPepper
I hope that answers your question.

Actually I couldn't find a straight answer to my question anywhere in your post. Even a "yes" or "no" would have been more informative imo.

I have no doubt you THINK you would know everything that would go on. I gathered your confidence on that a while ago but I seriously doubt it.

My question, again, was, do you think you would honestly suspect someone were putting a bomb or eutectic inside a building if there were any maintenance guys doing any kind of stupid work inside the shaft? I already know the answer: no, you would not suspect it. It would not seriously cross your mind. And even if it did, I really doubt you would mention it seriously to anyone else. And even if you did that, and you guys went and looked, there would be no guarantee that you would even find anything.

My answer: No, sir.

Not a SOUL gets access into elevator shafts without approval. Period. I have worked in Manhattan, I have worked with elevator companies there. (including OTIS) your theory is not feasible.

If you are in the hoistways, you are a licensed worker for the company that has the elevator contract for that facility.

1- Elevator Company A has the contract for Building A.

2- Elevator Company B will not be allowed to work in Building A.

There quite possibly be certain contingencies that may allow this, but Company A will know what is going on and will be there to ensure that anyone in their hoistway will do everything to code.

What you failed to read, BsBray, is that I stated that the only way it would NOT be known, is if the contracted company (ACE in this instance) were ALL in on it. Now, before you go and say they were, please keep in mind Charles Costello died on 9/11 when he went back into the towers to attempt to rescue people.

inmemoriamonline.net...

I might suggest you look into the elevator codes in NYC and hoistway access laws. Or, you can notify The International Union of Elevator Constructors- Local One . You can start with Denis Kilduff who is the Chairman of the safety committee in local one. If you would like, contact Lenny Legotte who is the President of Local 1. [email protected]

I concur 100%, the last part in particular. This is union work and by my experience they are to say the least, extremely fussy. As a construction manager I recently had to oversee the reconstruction of two elevators that only went two stories. Took an act of God to get them shut down. Now imagine the WTC where, what 10000 plus people went to work every day not to mention 1000's of tourist. Shutting down an elevator in that building would be the same as trying to casually close a lane on a major highway without anybody watching what you were doing. Just not going to happen.

Originally posted by bsbray11
I appreciate your honesty.

You know exactly what I meant.

Sorry that your honesty, is now in question sir.

reply to post by ImAPepper


why?
i don't get it.
bsbray is one of the most upright people i know on this board, and he's happy to admit he's wrong when he is.

reply to post by ImAPepper


You never said one thing as to whether or not you would honestly suspect anyone of planting a bomb, etc. while doing work in/around the shaft for whatever reason after the elevator has already been shut down. It's because this isn't something that realistically is going to cross someone's mind.

reply to post by bsbray11


Your question is somewhat of a loaded one. If I say I would not expect it, you will more than likely respond with:

"Then how do you know a covert team working with the PA and US Government made up of military high rise demolition experts, covertly entered the elevator shafts, exposed the steel, attached some sort of explosives, hide the device,hide the det-cords (or what other device is used), all unbeknown to the WTC Security, Engineering Department, ACE Elevator, etc."

Once again, I have worked in skyscrapers and large buildings for the better part of 15 years. I know what it takes to gain access to elevator hoistways. The theory that columns were accessed through elevator shafts is not a feasible one.

reply to post by ImAPepper


You only say my question is loaded because you see that my point is completely legitimate but you don't want to consider it. You want to continue feeling comfortable believing that you know every single thing that happens in every inch of elevator shaft space during every minute of every day when you have already admitted that you would not. Pretty much, pepper, you have a lot of confidence in yourself and other elevator staff that doesn't carry over for me and that you have failed to justify logically. Your elevator guys vs. a military covert op team? You know you would not stand a chance; it would be no contest. They would know exactly how you operate before they even entered the building, whereas you would never even suspect it.

I'm not saying it definitely happened like that, I'm just saying, if they wanted to, you would be totally out of your league and so would any other maintenance man. End of discussion. This stuff just does not happen on a daily basis. That is why you would never suspect it. No, you would not suspect it, let alone do anything about it. It's not a loaded question, it's you loving being ignorant by refusing to even think about what I am telling you. Your arrogant attitude is exactly what makes this such a vulnerability in the first place. For example, some criminal could have broken into a building and be planting something in an elevator shaft even as you respond to me and you would be 100% ignorant to it, and god knows how long it would take anyone to find it. It's just because this never happens that no one seriously takes it into consideration.


Btw, how difficult do you think it would be to obtain a fake security pass and access the basement maintenance levels of the Twin Towers? Also "not feasible"?

[edit on 10-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by bsbray11
You only say my question is loaded because you see that my point is completely legitimate but you don't want to consider it.

I disagree. I have considered it. You, however have not considered how illegitimate of a theory you have created. Do you have experience working in large buildings as either a Building Manager? Director of Engineering? Director of Security? Do you know the laws and SOP's regarding hoistway access?

You want to continue feeling comfortable believing that you know every single thing that happens in every inch of elevator shaft space during every minute of every day when you have already admitted that you would not.

Um, what? I have experience in this field. You, by your posts have proven that you lack any experience whatsoever in the operations of a multi-story facility.

Pretty much, pepper, you have a lot of confidence in yourself and other elevator staff that doesn't carry over for me and that you have failed to justify logically.

I do have a lot of confidence. I have a reason to. I am good at what I do. I have more than adequately justified my confidence with my resume in dealing with Local 1 and other large city elevator union contractors and state elevator inspectors, state building inspectors etc, construction crews, etc. Once again, you have yet to show even a trace of knowledge in the industry.

Your elevator guys vs. a military covert op team? You know you would not stand a chance; it would be no contest. They would know exactly how you operate before they even entered the building, whereas you would never even suspect it.

I have explained to you that the only way it would work is if EVERYONE was in on it.You have failed again to show how this covert military op team would be able to get past the layers of red tape to pull off this massive operation. You think because a 55 gallon drum bomb was allegedly found next to a gas pipe in a federal building, that an operation like the one you theorize is possible. Explain to me how ACE was able to stand back as this military operation was able to take place in all 3 WTC buildings. Please, I would love to hear it. Please tell me how not a single one of them didn't notice anything peculiar when this secret military team showed up and planted secret nano technology.

I am telling you it can not. I have cited you several reasons why. You ignore them. I realize you have to believe your theory. You want there to be a conspiracy.

it's you loving being ignorant by refusing to even think about what I am telling you.

I did think about it, and refuted your outlandish theory.

Your arrogant attitude is exactly what makes this such a vulnerability in the first place. For example, some criminal could have broken into a building and be planting something in an elevator shaft even as you respond to me and you would be 100% ignorant to it, and god knows how long it would take anyone to find it. It's just because this never happens that no one seriously takes it into consideration.

If the criminal worked for my elevator company, sure. Is that what you're suggesting? ACE was in on it too?

Btw, how difficult do you think it would be to obtain a fake security pass and access the basement maintenance levels of the Twin Towers? Also "not feasible"?

A pass is one thing, and I would agree it is possible for someone to obtain temporary access to certain unauthorized areas. Getting a covert team into the elevator shaft of 3 massive skyscrapers to plant exotic weaponry is another.

Please make your next response an explanation as to how this operation would take place. This is really getting old and all you have added so far is calling me arrogant and ignorant. Think of the enormity of this operation you are suggesting and explain it in detail.

Thank you

Dr. P

reply to post by ImAPepper


Obviously the thought disturbs you, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You think elevator shafts are impenetrable, I don't. Like I said, you guys would not stand a chance against a covert ops team. The ACE either. Have a nice day.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Obviously the thought disturbs you, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You think elevator shafts are impenetrable, I don't. Like I said, you guys would not stand a chance against a covert ops team. The ACE either. Have a nice day.

BsBray, we can amicably agree to disagree. However, I do not think that they are not impenetrable. Supervised access can be granted from time to time for very limited times and for various reasons. I'm also willing to concede that a maintenance worker may possibly gain access to some hoistways in some buildings. At the WTC, it would have been less likely.

Carrying out covert military operations in all three buildings in many of the shafts is where I have issue.

You have a nice day as well!

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by PplVSNWO

 

Sorry, I'll need those chips. And the chain of custody documents. I have no way of confirming where those samples came from. Or should I just trust them? I mean, really, why would they lie? Money? Fame? Adoration?

And MSDS do not list all the chemical components, just those relative to safety issues. Toxicology, transport information, etc. MSDS is not a recipe.

No, why would any sane person trust an anonymous internet person with evidence? What are your credentials that would convince us that you can do a better job then the real scientists that have already checked, and rechecked the samples?

Why did you ignore the link that shows that NIST already gives us the chemical make up of the primer in their report?

Originally posted by PplVSNWO

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by PplVSNWO

 

Sorry, I'll need those chips. And the chain of custody documents. I have no way of confirming where those samples came from. Or should I just trust them? I mean, really, why would they lie? Money? Fame? Adoration?

And MSDS do not list all the chemical components, just those relative to safety issues. Toxicology, transport information, etc. MSDS is not a recipe.

No, why would any sane person trust an anonymous internet person with evidence? What are your credentials that would convince us that you can do a better job then the real scientists that have already checked, and rechecked the samples?

Why did you ignore the link that shows that NIST already gives us the chemical make up of the primer in their report?

Fine, then posts the collection docs. Then send the chips to an independent lab for analysis. Post the results. What is wrong with that? I mean you are using these findings to convince the world that agents of the US government participated in one of the most foul acts of mass murder in US history, don't you think that calls for just a little independent review?

The Nano-Thermite debate is moot.

Steven Jones has already admitted that there is no way that nano thermite could have been used to weaken the steel. He is no stating the nano-thermite was used as a fuse for conventional explosives.