It was Paint for sure!

Originally posted by bsbray11
That's all fine but I still fail to see how you have negated the possibility of someone sabotaging the elevators, given the proper resources, access, and creativity. And I can see how all of those things would have been there if the Port Authority and some aspect of our military industrial complex were involved, as I believe they were.

The PA does not control the building codes when it comes to the elevators. I do know they are known to skate around other certain codes.

Regarding proper resources, they key element here would be access. As this thread started out (yes we have strayed a bit) is with nano-thermite. From what I understand, there would have to be literally tons of this applied in order for it to do what some are claiming. I have also read that Steven Jones is shying away from the "nano cause all" and has stated that the nano thermite was used as a "fuse" of some sort. Forgive me, I have don't have a link right now..or if it was just hearsay.

I guess, Bsbray that we will have to disagree, as I see no way all all of these things were there. I would have to say that the absence of evidence is key here as well.

Me either, but I really doubt anything like this would be done right in somebody's face, such that it was obvious what was being installed. It just wouldn't happen like that. But then to say, therefore, it's impossible to do such a thing, is where the fallacy comes in.

You then have to back up to your previous paragraph pertaining to "access". Knowing elevator technicians personally, you would be hard pressed to have not a single tech not notice the amount of construction needed to blow up the building. There were many at the WTC every day. you can't shut down elevators without them knowing. Sorry, I appreciate your passion, but I can't see this happening in that way.





[edit on 5-10-2009 by ImAPepper]

Originally posted by ImAPepper

Originally posted by bsbray11
That's all fine but I still fail to see how you have negated the possibility of someone sabotaging the elevators, given the proper resources, access, and creativity. And I can see how all of those things would have been there if the Port Authority and some aspect of our military industrial complex were involved, as I believe they were.

The PA does not control the building codes when it comes to the elevators. I do know they are known to skate around certain codes.

That's kind of what I'm talking about, but more of taking advantage of the fact that stuff like that does happen, that things are never maintained or inspected to perfection, not everyone is always over your shoulder with a chemical analyzer, those kinds of opportunistic holes in security that PA insiders would know well.

From what I understand, there would have to be literally tons of this applied in order for it to do what some are claiming.

I'm not in a position to make those kinds of estimates, or endorse anyone else's, but if that were the case, then I would imagine it would have to be applied in broad daylight under the guise of something else. Just my two cents on that. As always, I would love to see an independent investigation with some power to better investigate questions like that.

I have also read that Steven Jones is shying away from the "nano cause all" and has stated that the nano thermite was used as a "fuse" of some sort. Forgive me, I have don't have a link right now..or if it was just hearsay.

And that's another honest possibility given what all we still do and don't know about the towers and their "collapses."

You then have to back up to your previous paragraph pertaining to "access". Knowing elevator technicians personally, you would be hard pressed to have not a single tech not notice the amount of construction needed to blow up the building.

It sounds to me as if you are presuming to know exactly what would have been required to bring the buildings down the way we all saw on TV. I wouldn't believe you if you told me every elevator operator knows every square inch of all of his shafts, inside and out, at all times. And that leaves room for all sorts of possibilities we have yet to either eliminate or properly investigate.

There were many at the WTC every day. you can't shut down elevators without them knowing. Sorry, I appreciate your passion, but I can't see this happening in that way.

I never said no one would know or notice. But I also never said everyone who ever steps foot into an elevator shaft is going to automatically detect a eutectic applied to the columns with their spider senses. Either you're intentionally twisting what I'm saying to close your post, or you don't read too well.

[edit on 5-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Explosive paint wouldn't do anything. To little of it.

reply to post by paranoiaFTW


that's why the authors of the paper indicated it may have been used as a mere FUSE.

Originally posted by hooper
So, you think that the WTC was a government conspiracy that just happened to have occured on the same day that Islamic terrorist hijacked two planes and flew them into the Pentagon and crashed in Pennsylvania?

Seeing how the US government uses Islamic terrorists to do their dirty work. Then yes. Look up the '93 bombing of the WTC and how the FBI was involved.

1. US government involvement. Check.

2. Islamic terrorists doing the dirty work. Check.

Now, the question is: Why would YOU think any different given the US government's track record?

[edit on 5-10-2009 by Nutter]

Originally posted by bsbray11
That's all fine but I still fail to see how you have negated the possibility of someone sabotaging the elevators, given the proper resources, access, and creativity. And I can see how all of those things would have been there if the Port Authority and some aspect of our military industrial complex were involved, as I believe they were.

I am trying to understand where you are coming from. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You believe that the PA and the United States military were involved. Right?

So, you would have to have some sort of covert operation to actually pull this off. Once again, if you think about the task at hand (accessing the elevator shafts) you should be able to see clearly the improbability of not getting caught. I think too much credit is given to the PA and US military to suggest this would be carried out successfully. Remember, to access elevator shafts you have to shut down elevators. To shut down elevators you have to contact the elevator contractors.

That's kind of what I'm talking about, but more of taking advantage of the fact that stuff like that does happen, that things are never maintained or inspected to perfection, not everyone is always over your shoulder with a chemical analyzer, those kinds of opportunistic holes in security that PA insiders would know well.

I agree that sometimes codes, laws, permits, inspections, etc can be ignored at times. This however is not the case. Unless, you put ACE elevator staff, WTC security, and R&M staff all on the "in on it" crew.

I'm not in a position to make those kinds of estimates, or endorse anyone else's, but if that were the case, then I would imagine it would have to be applied in broad daylight under the guise of something else. Just my two cents on that. As always, I would love to see an independent investigation with some power to better investigate questions like that.

I too can not say either way regarding the amounts. It appears from what I have read that it would be in the tons. This is why Jones has backed away. Now, you have to rely on nano thermite fuses to detonate conventional explosives? Regarding a new independent investigation; do you think those that are responsible for orchestrating 9/11 will now tell the truth because they place their hand on a bible?

And that's another honest possibility given what all we still do and don't know about the towers and their "collapses."

Enough is know about the collapses to most of the people that are interested. To further discuss the collapses however should be discussed at another thread.

It sounds to me as if you are presuming to know exactly what would have been required to bring the buildings down the way we all saw on TV. I wouldn't believe you if you told me every elevator operator knows every square inch of all of his shafts, inside and out, at all times. And that leaves room for all sorts of possibilities we have yet to either eliminate or properly investigate.

I'm not qualified to determine what it would take to demolish any large building. That is why we listen to the professionals and what they state it would take. Once again though I have to assume you will theorize that the United States Military has a covert demo team that is experienced in controlled demolitions.

In regards to the elevators..no, they don't know every square inch of the shafts. I can tell you that they are aware of any access into the,

I never said no one would know or notice. But I also never said everyone who ever steps foot into an elevator shaft is going to automatically detect a eutectic applied to the columns with their spider senses. Either you're intentionally twisting what I'm saying to close your post, or you don't read too well.

I am not twisting your words. No access...no planting demo charges.

Originally posted by micpsi
The heat from the fires in the debris pile could easily have melted this lead or the aluminum from the plane which were probably the metals that were seen flowing through the pile.

Ah no .. I have melted a many a car battery to remove the lead and it doesnt get red hot when it melts...same goes for aluminum.

reply to post by ImAPepper


Just to put it out there, i am a building manager and shutting down lifts is not a big deal, at all. Also I think you will find that there would have been multiple emergency access keys located near the lift rooms......In this country the emergency cupboard would most likely be a 003 key which can be accessed by fire, police and anyone that has a 003 key, which are not restricted to use by emergency workers.

I imagine a similar set up was/is in place in new york, emergency crews can't be shuffling through a billion keys, so a 003 key opens a lot of related cabinets and such (Fire panel).

Also lifts over here have a fire emergency reset key which can be used by emergency staff to take a restricted lift anywhere in the building. I also have one of these keys as would thousands of other people in my city.
I am not from the USA but i would imagine it is very similar.

To shut down a lift you go into the lft motor room and press the big red button.
I imagine they would have had stricter security than most normal buildings, but wasn't a Bush in charge of that?

Originally posted by ImAPepper
I think too much credit is given to the PA and US military to suggest this would be carried out successfully.

Wow, beyond military capability to smuggle bombs into a building, when terrorists do the same sorts of things supposedly all the time. Like I've been saying, they found 2 undetonated military bombs in the Murrah Federal Building after it was blown, not just sitting around in the open but in the actual infrastructure and attached to gas pipelines. You think I give too much credit, I think you are naive. I can agree to disagree I suppose.

I agree that sometimes codes, laws, permits, inspections, etc can be ignored at times.

It's not something that depends upon you agreeing or not. It happens. NY also has amongst the most corrupt cops in the country. Whether or not you agree. Just saying, not everything happens like it is "supposed" to.

This however is not the case. Unless, you put ACE elevator staff, WTC security, and R&M staff all on the "in on it" crew.

I would bet you $1000, given the time and resources, I could personally screw with any elevator shaft in my area and avoid being noticed by freaking elevator staff. The general building security and police would most definitely be more of an issue to get around. Do you think the kind of activity we are talking about has to be done within some kind of legal codes?

Now, you have to rely on nano thermite fuses to detonate conventional explosives?

I don't believe conventional explosives played any significant role in the collapses personally. It wouldn't make any sense to use the oldest, cheapest and most recognizable technology (TNT, C4, etc.).

Regarding a new independent investigation; do you think those that are responsible for orchestrating 9/11 will now tell the truth because they place their hand on a bible?

If you have a powerful enough investigative body, you don't have to rely solely on personal testimony.

Enough is know about the collapses to most of the people that are interested.

I find that laughable considering that most people who are "interested" are engaged in these same types of debates. Obviously someone still isn't satisfied.

Once again though I have to assume you will theorize that the United States Military has a covert demo team that is experienced in controlled demolitions.

Um, I don't have to theorize those up. They are known to exist. Demolitions are important to the military. They even used to have a small conventional nuclear bomb that was designed for demolition purposes back in the 50's or 60's that is now known to the general public (but don't break your leash jumping to the conclusion that that's what I think brought the buildings down -- though a small but devastating bomb would be useful hid in the core structure).

In regards to the elevators..no, they don't know every square inch of the shafts.

And they aren't there 24/7 watching everyone that goes in and out of them either. And since they aren't, anyone trying to illegally plant a bomb or etc. isn't going to wait for a bunch of people to accumulate over his shoulder like a total idiot. Basically what you are trying to say, is no one could illegally plant anything in an elevator shaft despite the fact that they aren't guarded like bank vaults, because they would have to bypass so many authorities to mess with the shafts. That's what it seems like you are trying to say to me. I don't think you realize how little a damn the perpetrators would have given about going through the proper channels to do something illegal. They would have done it in any way possible.

How can someone prep the Twin Towers for demolition without anyone noticing you ask? Here is an article from September 1, 1993 about a ten year work project to upgrade the building's electrical wiring system:

"Since the World Trade Center (WTC) opened its doors in New York City 22 years ago, growing clusters of electronic devices have begun to burden the center's electrical system, which contains some 3,000 miles of electrical conductors and about 100,000 lighting fixtures. To address the situation, the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the WTC's owner, has decided to revamp the system with an electrical upgrade that will take an estimated 10 years and $81 million to complete. The project will involve extensive use of copper cabling."...

www.allbusiness.com...

Here is another analysis about some fireproofing work done to the building in 1999-2000 and some interesting coincidences:

"There appears to be a remarkable correlation between the floors upgraded for fireproofing in the WTC towers, in the years preceding 9/11/01, and the floors of impact, fire and failure. The fireproofing upgrades would have allowed for shutdown of the affected floors, and the exposure of the floor assemblies and the columns for a significant period of time. Exactly what work was done during that time?"...

www.911blogger.com...

I'm in no position to comment if these two large contracting jobs were in anyway related to the structural failure of the buildings. However, if someone needed access to the buildings and needed time to do the job without raising suspicion, this would seem the most logical way to go about it.

Well TBH I am not ready for the "how did it happen" debate, I still want to have the "mystery chips" debate. The article presented earlier in this thread, was not doing too bad, until they placed two photographs next to each other that looked nothing alike and insisted they did. There are plenty of molecules that are mostly carbon but quite different in many ways. I'm having a hard time getting around it being paint chips without the manufacturer or someone neutral to the debate presenting their case for it.

Also, a lot is lost in the translation of the paper, and the paper was set out to prove what the chips are not, not to prove what the chips are.

Its a round fruit.

Jones: Its an apple
Debunker: Its an orange

Reality. It could be an apple, orange or something else. I could spend all day proving its not an apple and it could still be a
www.exportfuture.com... .

If its paint it should be exceedingly easy to prove. Why isn't it?

Originally posted by jprophet420
If its paint it should be exceedingly easy to prove. Why isn't it?

And that's the crux of the problem for the debunkers. You asked for an MSDS sheet in the OP. I'd like to see one also for a paint that is approved for steel and that has combustible properties equal to these chips. Wouldn't it actually help the construction industry knowing that there is a paint that is seriously a hazard? Don't the owners and tennents of buildings have a right to know whether their building has basically a thermitic paint on the steel?

Originally posted by Nutter

Originally posted by jprophet420
If its paint it should be exceedingly easy to prove. Why isn't it?

And that's the crux of the problem for the debunkers. You asked for an MSDS sheet in the OP. I'd like to see one also for a paint that is approved for steel and that has combustible properties equal to these chips. Wouldn't it actually help the construction industry knowing that there is a paint that is seriously a hazard? Don't the owners and tennents of buildings have a right to know whether their building has basically a thermitic paint on the steel?

I'm currently sitting in an office packed full of combustible materials. But I'm not panicking about it.

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
How can someone prep the Twin Towers for demolition without anyone noticing you ask? Here is an article from September 1, 1993 about a ten year work project to upgrade the building's electrical wiring system:

"Since the World Trade Center (WTC) opened its doors in New York City 22 years ago, growing clusters of electronic devices have begun to burden the center's electrical system, which contains some 3,000 miles of electrical conductors and about 100,000 lighting fixtures. To address the situation, the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the WTC's owner, has decided to revamp the system with an electrical upgrade that will take an estimated 10 years and $81 million to complete. The project will involve extensive use of copper cabling."...

www.allbusiness.com...

Here is another analysis about some fireproofing work done to the building in 1999-2000 and some interesting coincidences:

"There appears to be a remarkable correlation between the floors upgraded for fireproofing in the WTC towers, in the years preceding 9/11/01, and the floors of impact, fire and failure. The fireproofing upgrades would have allowed for shutdown of the affected floors, and the exposure of the floor assemblies and the columns for a significant period of time. Exactly what work was done during that time?"...

www.911blogger.com...

I'm in no position to comment if these two large contracting jobs were in anyway related to the structural failure of the buildings. However, if someone needed access to the buildings and needed time to do the job without raising suspicion, this would seem the most logical way to go about it.

"Without raising suspicion"? There's an article about it and an estimate of the cost! A project like that will have hundreds of workers, dozens of commissioning engineers, QSs, M & E consultants and so on.

I'd say that a job like this would be precisely the opposite of how to go about it. But perhaps that's because I know something about construction.

Originally posted by fetidchimp
reply to post by ImAPepper

 

Just to put it out there, i am a building manager and shutting down lifts is not a big deal, at all. Also I think you will find that there would have been multiple emergency access keys located near the lift rooms......In this country the emergency cupboard would most likely be a 003 key which can be accessed by fire, police and anyone that has a 003 key, which are not restricted to use by emergency workers.

I imagine a similar set up was/is in place in new york, emergency crews can't be shuffling through a billion keys, so a 003 key opens a lot of related cabinets and such (Fire panel).

Also lifts over here have a fire emergency reset key which can be used by emergency staff to take a restricted lift anywhere in the building. I also have one of these keys as would thousands of other people in my city.
I am not from the USA but i would imagine it is very similar.

To shut down a lift you go into the lft motor room and press the big red button.
I imagine they would have had stricter security than most normal buildings, but wasn't a Bush in charge of that?

I think the issue is not the means and methods of shutting the elevators down the issue was shutting down the elevators in the biggest skyscrapers in the world in such a way that no one notice and secondly, working in the shafts without any questions asked. Elevator maintenance people are very fussy about who works in the shafts because they are ultimately held responsible for any failures and last but far from least - it is a union job in one of the most heavily unionized cities in the country. I know some may laugh at that notion but BA love to sneak around and find crap like that.

this is really starting to irk me.
tower elevators are shut down REGULARLY for SCHEDULED MAINTENANCE, and UNSCHEDULED MAINTENANCE.
it is ridiculous to keep throwing out this canard that you can't shut down the elevators, ever.
you do it one car at a time, "OUT OF SERVICE".

shessh, give it a rest.

reply to post by billybob


This should be easy to prove. Go and try it in a local high-rise office building.

I used to work in Canary Wharf tower and I can tell you that there were some shocking health and safety violations (the emergency exits on my floor were locked shut on Sept 12 2001, for example) but if you tried to shut the lifts independently you'd get noticed very quickly.

Unless of course the entire maintenance and engineering staff of the WTC was involved, wittingly or unwittingly. In which case the conspiracy has grown yet again. In fact I'd be surprised if only about ten per cent of the US weren't in on it.

Originally posted by Nutter

Originally posted by jprophet420
If its paint it should be exceedingly easy to prove. Why isn't it?

And that's the crux of the problem for the debunkers. You asked for an MSDS sheet in the OP. I'd like to see one also for a paint that is approved for steel and that has combustible properties equal to these chips. Wouldn't it actually help the construction industry knowing that there is a paint that is seriously a hazard? Don't the owners and tennents of buildings have a right to know whether their building has basically a thermitic paint on the steel?

Right, and OSHA even has levels of flamability on their sheets...

SECTION II – HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS
WEIGHT TLV TLV VAP/PRES
INGREDIENTS PERCENT PPM mg/M3 LEL MM HG @ 20ºC
ETHYLENE GLYCOL
(CAS #107-21-1)* 1-2 50. 3.2 .10
*ON SARA (313) TOXIC CHEMICAL LIST
ZINC OXIDE* 3-5 UNK N/A N/A
(CAS #1314-22-3) *ON SARA (313) TOXIC CHEMICAL LIST
SECTION III – PHYSICAL DATA
BOILING RANGE: 212-400 DEGREES F
VAPOR DENSITY: HEAVIER THAN AIR
EVAPORATION RATE: SLOWER THAN ETHER
% VOLATILE BY VOLUME: 65 - 70
WEIGHT PER GALLON: 10.0 - 11.0 LBS
SECTION IV – FIRE AND EXPLOSION DATA
FLAMMABILITY CLASS: NOT APPLICABLE
FLASH POINT: NOT APPLICABLE
EXTINGUISHING MEDIA: NOT APPLICABLE
UNUSUAL FIRE HAZARDS: NONE

This was from an example primer, not the primer used on the WTC. Now, the flammability debate surrounding these paint chips lies in the level of flammability, not if they will actually burn, we know they will.

reply to post by TrickoftheShade


hasn't grown for me. i suspect a great deal, if not all the of the pertinent staff, were in on it. they had many years to hand pick and place insiders.
incredulity doesn't work as an argument for me. this was a multi billion dollar operation, and i'm sure all the 'workers' were VERY well paid, and it is not hard to find criminals to do dirty work.
i used to work security at a complex of towers (4 of them), and OF COURSE elevators get shut down.
if it's a critical elevator, like the freight one, then the work is done between business hours. i can't believe you're hanging onto this "it's impossible for an elevator to stop working", argument.
they had something like 80 to 100 elevator workers working on 9/11 alone. how are they supposed to "maintain" anything, if they can't stop the elevators?

GIVE UP! *&^@!)(*^$*#&^^@(*&^!!!!

violation of t & c, please review this link

(mod edit)

LOL!

Originally posted by billybob
reply to post by TrickoftheShade

 

hasn't grown for me. i suspect a great deal, if not all the of the pertinent staff, were in on it. they had many years to hand pick and place insiders.


incredulity doesn't work as an argument for me. this was a multi billion dollar operation, and i'm sure all the 'workers' were VERY well paid, and it is not hard to find criminals to do dirty work.

Okay. How many people, roughly, do you think it would take to be "on the inside" to pull off your version of 9/11? It must be in the thousands.

And many of these people would actually be quite easy to trace. Given a little work you could find one of the "pertinent staff" who worked in the towers' maintenance dept. You could grill them, get them to talk. Maybe offer them significant amounts of money. Or maybe they've all disappeared?

i used to work security at a complex of towers (4 of them), and OF COURSE elevators get shut down.
if it's a critical elevator, like the freight one, then the work is done between business hours. i can't believe you're hanging onto this "it's impossible for an elevator to stop working", argument.
they had something like 80 to 100 elevator workers working on 9/11 alone. how are they supposed to "maintain" anything, if they can't stop the elevators?

GIVE UP! *&^@!)(*^$*#&^^@(*&^!!!!

violation of t & c, please review this link

(mod edit)

LOL!

What are you talking about? Of course it's possible to shut down elevators. Just try and do it in a huge building, clandestinely, without involving huge numbers of admin and maintenance staff.

Obviously since you think they were all in on it then it's not a problem for you. But pretty soon the only people who aren't going to be insiders are you and about five others.