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Originally posted by bsbray11
That's all fine but I still fail to see how you have negated the possibility of someone sabotaging the elevators, given the proper resources, access, and creativity. And I can see how all of those things would have been there if the Port Authority and some aspect of our military industrial complex were involved, as I believe they were.
Me either, but I really doubt anything like this would be done right in somebody's face, such that it was obvious what was being installed. It just wouldn't happen like that. But then to say, therefore, it's impossible to do such a thing, is where the fallacy comes in.
Originally posted by ImAPepper
Originally posted by bsbray11
That's all fine but I still fail to see how you have negated the possibility of someone sabotaging the elevators, given the proper resources, access, and creativity. And I can see how all of those things would have been there if the Port Authority and some aspect of our military industrial complex were involved, as I believe they were.
The PA does not control the building codes when it comes to the elevators. I do know they are known to skate around certain codes.
From what I understand, there would have to be literally tons of this applied in order for it to do what some are claiming.
I have also read that Steven Jones is shying away from the "nano cause all" and has stated that the nano thermite was used as a "fuse" of some sort. Forgive me, I have don't have a link right now..or if it was just hearsay.
You then have to back up to your previous paragraph pertaining to "access". Knowing elevator technicians personally, you would be hard pressed to have not a single tech not notice the amount of construction needed to blow up the building.
There were many at the WTC every day. you can't shut down elevators without them knowing. Sorry, I appreciate your passion, but I can't see this happening in that way.
Originally posted by hooper
So, you think that the WTC was a government conspiracy that just happened to have occured on the same day that Islamic terrorist hijacked two planes and flew them into the Pentagon and crashed in Pennsylvania?
Originally posted by bsbray11
That's all fine but I still fail to see how you have negated the possibility of someone sabotaging the elevators, given the proper resources, access, and creativity. And I can see how all of those things would have been there if the Port Authority and some aspect of our military industrial complex were involved, as I believe they were.
That's kind of what I'm talking about, but more of taking advantage of the fact that stuff like that does happen, that things are never maintained or inspected to perfection, not everyone is always over your shoulder with a chemical analyzer, those kinds of opportunistic holes in security that PA insiders would know well.
I'm not in a position to make those kinds of estimates, or endorse anyone else's, but if that were the case, then I would imagine it would have to be applied in broad daylight under the guise of something else. Just my two cents on that. As always, I would love to see an independent investigation with some power to better investigate questions like that.
And that's another honest possibility given what all we still do and don't know about the towers and their "collapses."
It sounds to me as if you are presuming to know exactly what would have been required to bring the buildings down the way we all saw on TV. I wouldn't believe you if you told me every elevator operator knows every square inch of all of his shafts, inside and out, at all times. And that leaves room for all sorts of possibilities we have yet to either eliminate or properly investigate.
I never said no one would know or notice. But I also never said everyone who ever steps foot into an elevator shaft is going to automatically detect a eutectic applied to the columns with their spider senses. Either you're intentionally twisting what I'm saying to close your post, or you don't read too well.
Originally posted by micpsi
The heat from the fires in the debris pile could easily have melted this lead or the aluminum from the plane which were probably the metals that were seen flowing through the pile.
Originally posted by ImAPepper
I think too much credit is given to the PA and US military to suggest this would be carried out successfully.
I agree that sometimes codes, laws, permits, inspections, etc can be ignored at times.
This however is not the case. Unless, you put ACE elevator staff, WTC security, and R&M staff all on the "in on it" crew.
Now, you have to rely on nano thermite fuses to detonate conventional explosives?
Regarding a new independent investigation; do you think those that are responsible for orchestrating 9/11 will now tell the truth because they place their hand on a bible?
Enough is know about the collapses to most of the people that are interested.
Once again though I have to assume you will theorize that the United States Military has a covert demo team that is experienced in controlled demolitions.
In regards to the elevators..no, they don't know every square inch of the shafts.
Originally posted by jprophet420
If its paint it should be exceedingly easy to prove. Why isn't it?
Originally posted by Nutter
Originally posted by jprophet420
If its paint it should be exceedingly easy to prove. Why isn't it?
And that's the crux of the problem for the debunkers. You asked for an MSDS sheet in the OP. I'd like to see one also for a paint that is approved for steel and that has combustible properties equal to these chips. Wouldn't it actually help the construction industry knowing that there is a paint that is seriously a hazard? Don't the owners and tennents of buildings have a right to know whether their building has basically a thermitic paint on the steel?
Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
How can someone prep the Twin Towers for demolition without anyone noticing you ask? Here is an article from September 1, 1993 about a ten year work project to upgrade the building's electrical wiring system:
"Since the World Trade Center (WTC) opened its doors in New York City 22 years ago, growing clusters of electronic devices have begun to burden the center's electrical system, which contains some 3,000 miles of electrical conductors and about 100,000 lighting fixtures. To address the situation, the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the WTC's owner, has decided to revamp the system with an electrical upgrade that will take an estimated 10 years and $81 million to complete. The project will involve extensive use of copper cabling."...
www.allbusiness.com...
Here is another analysis about some fireproofing work done to the building in 1999-2000 and some interesting coincidences:
"There appears to be a remarkable correlation between the floors upgraded for fireproofing in the WTC towers, in the years preceding 9/11/01, and the floors of impact, fire and failure. The fireproofing upgrades would have allowed for shutdown of the affected floors, and the exposure of the floor assemblies and the columns for a significant period of time. Exactly what work was done during that time?"...
www.911blogger.com...
I'm in no position to comment if these two large contracting jobs were in anyway related to the structural failure of the buildings. However, if someone needed access to the buildings and needed time to do the job without raising suspicion, this would seem the most logical way to go about it.
Originally posted by fetidchimp
reply to post by ImAPepper
Just to put it out there, i am a building manager and shutting down lifts is not a big deal, at all. Also I think you will find that there would have been multiple emergency access keys located near the lift rooms......In this country the emergency cupboard would most likely be a 003 key which can be accessed by fire, police and anyone that has a 003 key, which are not restricted to use by emergency workers.
I imagine a similar set up was/is in place in new york, emergency crews can't be shuffling through a billion keys, so a 003 key opens a lot of related cabinets and such (Fire panel).
Also lifts over here have a fire emergency reset key which can be used by emergency staff to take a restricted lift anywhere in the building. I also have one of these keys as would thousands of other people in my city.
I am not from the USA but i would imagine it is very similar.
To shut down a lift you go into the lft motor room and press the big red button.
I imagine they would have had stricter security than most normal buildings, but wasn't a Bush in charge of that?
Originally posted by Nutter
Originally posted by jprophet420
If its paint it should be exceedingly easy to prove. Why isn't it?
And that's the crux of the problem for the debunkers. You asked for an MSDS sheet in the OP. I'd like to see one also for a paint that is approved for steel and that has combustible properties equal to these chips. Wouldn't it actually help the construction industry knowing that there is a paint that is seriously a hazard? Don't the owners and tennents of buildings have a right to know whether their building has basically a thermitic paint on the steel?
SECTION II – HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS
WEIGHT TLV TLV VAP/PRES
INGREDIENTS PERCENT PPM mg/M3 LEL MM HG @ 20ºC
ETHYLENE GLYCOL
(CAS #107-21-1)* 1-2 50. 3.2 .10
*ON SARA (313) TOXIC CHEMICAL LIST
ZINC OXIDE* 3-5 UNK N/A N/A
(CAS #1314-22-3) *ON SARA (313) TOXIC CHEMICAL LIST
SECTION III – PHYSICAL DATA
BOILING RANGE: 212-400 DEGREES F
VAPOR DENSITY: HEAVIER THAN AIR
EVAPORATION RATE: SLOWER THAN ETHER
% VOLATILE BY VOLUME: 65 - 70
WEIGHT PER GALLON: 10.0 - 11.0 LBS
SECTION IV – FIRE AND EXPLOSION DATA
FLAMMABILITY CLASS: NOT APPLICABLE
FLASH POINT: NOT APPLICABLE
EXTINGUISHING MEDIA: NOT APPLICABLE
UNUSUAL FIRE HAZARDS: NONE
Originally posted by billybob
reply to post by TrickoftheShade
hasn't grown for me. i suspect a great deal, if not all the of the pertinent staff, were in on it. they had many years to hand pick and place insiders.
incredulity doesn't work as an argument for me. this was a multi billion dollar operation, and i'm sure all the 'workers' were VERY well paid, and it is not hard to find criminals to do dirty work.
i used to work security at a complex of towers (4 of them), and OF COURSE elevators get shut down.
if it's a critical elevator, like the freight one, then the work is done between business hours. i can't believe you're hanging onto this "it's impossible for an elevator to stop working", argument.
they had something like 80 to 100 elevator workers working on 9/11 alone. how are they supposed to "maintain" anything, if they can't stop the elevators?
GIVE UP! *&^@!)(*^$*#&^^@(*&^!!!!
violation of t & c, please review this link
(mod edit)
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