Pro-Religious US more socially dysfunctional that secular democracies, page 1

I've come across an interesting paper Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies published in the Journal of Religion and Society, in 2005.

I will let the paper speak for itself.

Cross-national comparisons of highly differing rates of religiosity and societal conditions form a mass epidemiological experiment that can be used to test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health. Data correlations show that in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction, while pro-religious and anti-evolution America performs poorly.

and

[20] The United States’ deep social problems are all the more disturbing because the nation enjoys exceptional per capita wealth among the major western nations ... The U.S. is therefore the least efficient western nation in terms of converting wealth into cultural and physical health. Understanding the reasons for this failure is urgent, and doing so requires considering the degree to which cause versus effect is responsible for the observed correlations between social conditions and religiosity versus secularism.

An even more interesting relationship is noted that within the USA, the corelationalso seems to hold.

There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms.

The paper points out that it is an initial look at a subject of pressing importance and suggests several qustions that should be investigted:

1. Why is the exceptionally wealthy U.S. so inefficient that it is experiencing a much higher degree of societal distress than are less religious, less wealthy prosperous democracies.

2. How do these less wealthy democracies achieve superior societal health while having little in the way of the religious values or institutions?

CAVEAT The paper speaks of correlations and does not claim a causal relationships. Responses to this post that argue against unstated causality are spurious.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by metamagic]

MOD EDIT to correct spelling in thread title

[edit on 9/18/2009 by benevolent tyrant]

Apparently a simple request of any search engine regarding secularism and dysfunction will conjure up a host of secular sites promoting their agendas through "studies" of how religion is bad and secularism is good. I suppose your reputation of being against Christianity has led you to posting another thread about how it is destructive to believe in God. Of course, I disagree. I do, however, think there are few Christians who are intentionally attacking secularism with studies and funding.

One questions the motives of such efforts. What is the point of destroying a belief in God? It would seem that secularist think that removing a belief in a loving and caring God, who wants us to do unto others like we would want them to do unto us, will make the world a much better place. I think not.

I believe what you are seeing is related to two principles:

1. Where there is the most good, you will find the most evil.
2. God blesses a nation that loves Him. People who are blessed tend to fall in to sin and forget God. (This is the run of history in the Bible of the nation of Israel).

Makes sense to me that our nation has much faith in God. We are a missionary nation to the world, also. We provide food, hope, love, and development to nations in need around the globe. Makes sense to me that Satan (forces of evil) would want to destroy us from within, therefore targeting our people for the greatest temptations and corruption.

Thank you for proving my point. Here's some more for you, too:
www.religiousconsultation.org...

Therefore, let us be even more dedicated to God and committed to sending out more missionaries, love, food, and hope to the world. It may hurt us a little to be tempted and tried by evil forces, and we may lose a few citizens in the process, but isn't it worth it to give so much to so many who have so little?

Originally posted by Jim Scott
Apparently a simple request of any search engine regarding secularism and dysfunction will conjure up a host of secular sites promoting their agendas through "studies" of how religion is bad and secularism is good. I suppose your reputation of being against Christianity has led you to posting another thread about how it is destructive to believe in God. Of course, I disagree. I do, however, think there are few Christians who are intentionally attacking secularism with studies and funding.

Kind of a knee-jerk reaction there.. couple of points

Who is this mysterious "they" that have an agenda?

Obviously you never read the caveat at the end of the post... it is entirely spurious argument and incorrect conclusion on your part that the study said anything about Religion being bad and secularism being good. It put out some correlations of data and stated that it was an open question as to why this correlation exists or how strong it actually is.

My "reputation" has utterly no bearing on the validity of the argument.. this is what is called an "ad hominem" fallacy. And for the record, it is not Christianity I am opposed to, it is fundamentalism and the repressive political movements it spawns regardless of whether it is Christian, Muslim or any other.

One questions the motives of such efforts. What is the point of destroying a belief in God? It would seem that secularist think that removing a belief in a loving and caring God, who wants us to do unto others like we would want them to do unto us, will make the world a much better place. I think not.

Unless that belief is god is delusional or a lie. Perhaps the motive in questioning the belief in the existence of a anthropormorpized, jealous god is because it would deny the truth about the nature of god.

One of the things that I noticed back in the day when I called myself a christian was that "We preach peace, forgiveness, tolerance and love. We practice vengeance, persecution, hatred and domination." The point of the study is that while you claim that this belief in god makes the world a better place, the data says otherwise.

I believe what you are seeing is related to two principles:

1. Where there is the most good, you will find the most evil.
2. God blesses a nation that loves Him. People who are blessed tend to fall in to sin and forget God. (This is the run of history in the Bible of the nation of Israel).

Makes sense to me that our nation has much faith in God. We are a missionary nation to the world, also. We provide food, hope, love, and development to nations in need around the globe. Makes sense to me that Satan (forces of evil) would want to destroy us from within, therefore targeting our people for the greatest temptations and corruption.

Missionary nation to the world? Perhaps you should ask those who have been "missionaried" how they feel about it, or better yet, experience it from their perspective. I have. As one of the people in those countries pointed out "To get a real understanding of the effects of the wolf's diet, you should ask the sheep."

Perhaps you should read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins, if you are open minded enough to listen to an contrary point of view..

In this shocking memoir, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, John Perkins tells of his own inner journey from willing servant of empire to impassioned advocate for the rights of oppressed people. Covertly recruited by the United States National Security Agency and on the payroll of an international consulting firm, he traveled the world—to Indonesia, Panama, Ecuador, Colombia, Saudi Arabia, Iran and other strategically important countries. His job was to implement policies that promoted the interests of the U.S. corporatocracy (a coalition of government, banks, and corporations) while professing to alleviate poverty—policies that alienated many nations and ultimately led to September 11 and growing anti-Americanism.

Thank you for proving my point. Here's some more for you, too:
www.religiousconsultation.org...

In what possible way have I proved your point since your whole argument is based on the fallacy of begging the question?

As near as I can figure it out, you are saying:

1. Belief in god results in a better society
2. A better society produces an evil backlash
3. This evil backlash manifests itself by corrupting the good society.
4. Good societies then become corrupt proportionally.
therefore the corruption in society is proof that belief in god resulted in a better society.

Therefore, let us be even more dedicated to God and committed to sending out more missionaries, love, food, and hope to the world. It may hurt us a little to be tempted and tried by evil forces, and we may lose a few citizens in the process, but isn't it worth it to give so much to so many who have so little?

Apparently not, according to the data -- material wealth does not seem to translate into happiness. As one African friend of mine noted "At home, we had very little, but we had each other and lived happily and peacefully. Then I went to Holland and saw that the people were very wealthy but also very unhappy and lonely. But when I went to the US, I was amazed how much wealthier the Americans were than the Dutch and also how much more unhappy and isolated from each other. I left the US since I could not dwell in such a sad and lonely place." For the record, she is a minister in an African Christian Church.



[edit on 16-9-2009 by metamagic]

reply to post by metamagic

---

Oh good.

Its been a while since I seen a good article on how christianity is bad for the world.

I liked it.

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by metamagic

---

Oh good.

Its been a while since I seen a good article on how christianity is bad for the world.

I liked it.

Thanks except for the fact this it is not about Christianity, it is about Religious Belief. I suspect that we might see the same correlations among non democracies with correlations of dysfunctionality and religious belief, but it would not be in these cases Christian but probably more Islam as the basis of the belief.

This is more about a cross religion social effect rather than criticizing any specific religion. There is also no claim anywhere that religion causes social dysfunction, merely that belief levels correlate with it.



[edit on 16-9-2009 by metamagic]

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