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Reason For Creationist Fervour

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posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 06:26 AM
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Why do Creationists feel the need to attack science as fervently as they do?

I'll tell you why. Little Johnny comes home from school and says to his parents "You told me God created Adam and Eve and my teacher at school says we evolved from the apes. Who is right?"

Instead of explaining that there are different ways to view the world and that evolution doesn't necessarily doesn't mean that the bible stories are false, the parent gets angry and forms a movement with other like-minded parents. This movement collects money, employs scientists to "disprove evolution" with various poor arguments and works to change what is taught in schools to their narrow beliefs. All this effort would have been better put into helping others as with true Christian principles.

Similar attacks can be brought upon most areas of science. It is a shame for them that Creationists picked on one of the strongest theories to assault.

What will we have next? The earth is the centre of the universe? Everything in the heavens revolves around us? There are existing maths that can model that. Why not press for that to be taught? I'm sure you can get some "scientists" to support it.

Evolution is not an argument against Intelligent Design. Evolution is only a slight affront to the Garden of Eden story. Get real and do what the religious organisations have always done in the face of strong science and modify your interpretation to suit and be happy with your beliefs.




[edit on 16/9/2009 by LightFantastic]




posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 07:07 AM
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I don't even think evolution is even a slight affront to Adam and Eve. I believe both happened.

Adam was inserted into the middle of human lineage and was intended to be the one who God used to bring man to our final state of glorification. He failed, so that task was reserved for Jesus...the last Adam.


[edit on 16-9-2009 by Praetorian Guard]



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by LightFantastic
Why do Creationists feel the need to attack science as fervently as they do?



I don't understand your argument here. In short it's illogical, condescending and contradictory.




Why do Creationists feel the need to attack science as fervently as they do?


You're making a blanket statement here covering all Creationists. Many Christians are scientists but according to your interpretation of "science" if they follow the creationist model that it's not "real" science. Both are theories correct?




I'll tell you why. Little Johnny comes home from school and says to his parents "You told me God created Adam and Eve and my teacher at school says we evolved from the apes. Who is right?"



Now you have the answers as to why. Evolution does NOT teach we came from apes. This is a fallacy on your part. I hold to a creationist view but never taught anyone that evolution claims we came from apes or chimps.




Instead of explaining that there are different ways to view the world and that evolution doesn't necessarily doesn't mean that the bible stories are false, the parent gets angry and forms a movement with other like-minded parents.


So what you're saying here is that YOU will also teach to your kids that creationism is just as valid of a world view as evolution (empiricism)? I highly doubt this because you believe it to be false therefore why teach your kids what you know to be false? So here you have stated a double standard. You want others to be open to other world views yet I am suspect as to what you will tell your own kids.




This movement collects money, employs scientists to "disprove evolution" with various poor arguments and works to change what is taught in schools to their narrow beliefs.


"narrow beliefs" ? So teaching only evolution is not being narrow? Ah, yes we have in your defense the separation of church and state. You're safe there correct? After all you're not the one being narrow, right?

If your kids school taught both world views would be truly happy about it or would you maybe contact the ACLU, an organization that collects money and employs lawyers to keep Christians in check? I mean why should Christians be allowed to spread their "gospel" in public schools! If they want to learn about creation then they should go to private schools, right?




What will we have next? The earth is the centre of the universe? Everything in the heavens revolves around us? There are existing maths that can model that. Why not press for that to be taught? I'm sure you can get some "scientists" to support it.

Evolution is not an argument against Intelligent Design. Evolution is only a slight affront to the Garden of Eden story. Get real and do what the religious organisations have always done in the face of strong science and modify your interpretation to suit and be happy with your beliefs.


I'm not even sure where to start with the above statements.....Do you see the condescending attitude?

In your view there is no other possible view other than evolution. Adam and Eve is but a fable to you. Creationists, in your view, must "get real" and if you do you can then be "happy with your beliefs". In other words, as long as you agree with me.....and of course "science", then you to can be happy.



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by TangoVooDoo
You're making a blanket statement here covering all Creationists. Many Christians are scientists but according to your interpretation of "science" if they follow the creationist model that it's not "real" science. Both are theories correct?


I apologise for the blanket statement. I omitted the word "many". You have made an assumption that my post is an attack on creationism and you are telling me what I think.



So what you're saying here is that YOU will also teach to your kids that creationism is just as valid of a world view as evolution (empiricism)? I highly doubt this because you believe it to be false therefore why teach your kids what you know to be false? So here you have stated a double standard. You want others to be open to other world views yet I am suspect as to what you will tell your own kids.


I'm not sure why you assume I believe ID to be false. You are making assumptions again. I teach my children as many world views as possible and let them make their own decision. I don't tell them what to believe. As I stated in my OP, evolution doesn't refute ID. So why the attack on evolution?



"narrow beliefs" ? So teaching only evolution is not being narrow? Ah, yes we have in your defense the separation of church and state. You're safe there correct? After all you're not the one being narrow, right?


No I'm not being narrow. In science lessons, evolution is the scientific concensus so should be taught. Other views can be taught in other lessons.

I stand by my guns that religion and state should always be separate. Would you support religion being part of the state when the US becomes Islamic?



If your kids school taught both world views would be truly happy about it or would you maybe contact the ACLU, an organization that collects money and employs lawyers to keep Christians in check? I mean why should Christians be allowed to spread their "gospel" in public schools! If they want to learn about creation then they should go to private schools, right?


I have already taught my children everything I can. I can see by your use of the word "both" that you see two sides: Christian and Science. There are a lot more views than that I'm afraid. I have no desire to keep any religous group in check and certainly wouldn't donate money to any organisation that does. I'm British - we don't do that sort of thing.

Of course religion should be a school topic. I fear however that many would use schools to force their religous views on others children. That shouldn't be allowed. Again, would you support religion being imposed on children at school when the US becomes Islamic?



I'm not even sure where to start with the above statements.....Do you see the condescending attitude?

In your view there is no other possible view other than evolution. Adam and Eve is but a fable to you. Creationists, in your view, must "get real" and if you do you can then be "happy with your beliefs". In other words, as long as you agree with me.....and of course "science", then you to can be happy.


You take my post as condescending for which I am sorry. It wasn't intended that way. I should have reworded the "I'll tell you why" and "little johhny" section I think.

Yet again you are telling me what I think without basis. The various religions have "got real" many times before without detrement. Science isn't attacking religion and its purpose isn't to attack religion. Aetheist scientists dont get up in the morning and wonder what part of the bible to attack next. They try to explain the world around them.

...Continued



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by TangoVooDoo


ANYHOW...

The original point of my post wasn't an attack on creationists. I was trying to explain my understanding for the ferocity of the movement against science and hopefully get some real reasons. I still don't understand what the problem is with evolution. The previous poster doesn't have a problem with it either.

The creationist movement has somehow demonised science and depicted it as some sort of religous faith in itself.

I have noted that in general, creationists want alternate science to be taught about creation and I was making the point of where does it all stop. Do we teach the viewpoint of every religion in every science lesson where the science conflicts with any religions view? Or is it, as I suspect, just the Christian view that the creationist movement is interested in? (I know 'ID' was created to counter this...)

Do you not agree that the money any effort invested in the creationist movement would have been better spent helping others?

I look forward to a less defensive and more reasoned reply. An explanation as to why Evolution is under attack would be nice.



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by Praetorian Guard
I don't even think evolution is even a slight affront to Adam and Eve. I believe both happened.


My last post to you didn't appear. Thanks for your views



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 11:13 PM
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Originally posted by LightFantastic

I apologise for the blanket statement. I omitted the word "many". You have made an assumption that my post is an attack on creationism and you are telling me what I think.



Incorrect. I made no such assumption as you yourself stated that you omitted the word "many", by doing so I reacted to the words there. You're making me out to be a mind reader.


Originally posted by LightFantastic

I'm not sure why you assume I believe ID to be false. You are making assumptions again. I teach my children as many world views as possible and let them make their own decision. I don't tell them what to believe. As I stated in my OP, evolution doesn't refute ID. So why the attack on evolution?



I never attack evolution but rather defend a creation world view. Also, I never said you believed ID to be false. Perhaps you're confusing ID with a creation world view?


Originally posted by LightFantastic

I can see by your use of the word "both" that you see two sides: Christian and Science. There are a lot more views than that I'm afraid.



You may want to go back and re-read your opening post. I am responding to YOUR post that puts "creationists against evolutionists". Let's see you mention the Bible, the Garden of Eden, Adam & Eve and use the name "God" all of which paints a picture of Biblical creationists so it is YOU that first posits only "two sides", not me. I see no where your mention of Hindu, Buddhist or pagan world views so given that you only mention evolution and creationists (or intelligent design, which does not equal Biblical creation) I only replied with those two in mind.


Originally posted by LightFantastic

I still don't understand what the problem is with evolution. The previous poster doesn't have a problem with it either.



Do you not agree that the money any effort invested in the creationist movement would have been better spent helping others?




The problem is it's a thoery and also that it denies God the Creator the Glory of Creation. To argue that God used evolution to get us where we are today states that God is not Soveriegn over all things.

How do you know that the creationist side has not helped anyone? There are a great number of christians who do both.....fight for their religous freedoms and also help people.



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 11:24 PM
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How would you feel if they taught creationism in school and they taught your young child that we all came from God?

You would do what happened many years ago and gather like minded individuals, raise money, employ scientist to discredit creationism with various poor arguments and works to change what is taught in schools to their narrow beliefs.

You are basically getting upset about what atheists did many years ago. The only reason you aren't upset about it is because it fits into your way of thinking.

[edit on 17-9-2009 by jd140]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 05:28 AM
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Originally posted by TangoVooDoo
I never attack evolution but rather defend a creation world view. Also, I never said you believed ID to be false. Perhaps you're confusing ID with a creation world view?


Yes I am, I thought ID was a "more palatable" pseudonym for Creationism.




You may want to go back and re-read your opening post.
(SNIP)


Agreed.



The problem is it's a thoery and also that it denies God the Creator the Glory of Creation. To argue that God used evolution to get us where we are today states that God is not Soveriegn over all things.


Now I get it, I think. You believe that all species were created as they are now? Why do you think God wouldn't use Evolution?



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 05:35 AM
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Originally posted by jd140
How would you feel if they taught creationism in school and they taught your young child that we all came from God?
(SNIP)


I'm not getting upset about anything! The more world views schools teach the better.

I wouldn't think it was good if creationism was taught in science lessons because it isn't science, however it is dressed. I wouldn't feel the need to do something about it if it was though. There are other lessons that are suitable however and thats how it is at the moment in the UK. If creationism was taught in science I would talk about it with my child and explain the differing views.



[edit on 18/9/2009 by LightFantastic]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 05:40 AM
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Light... you'll be like a sheep to the slaughter in this thread. No one can help you, the cabal here (I think you know what I am referring to) have moved quickly on this one and it will be derailed and shut down within hours.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by reasonable
Light... you'll be like a sheep to the slaughter in this thread. No one can help you, the cabal here (I think you know what I am referring to) have moved quickly on this one and it will be derailed and shut down within hours.


Thanks for the advice reasonable (you seem to have nominative determinism) but I don't really understand what you are trying to say.

I now realise that this is a touchy subject but I have come to realise I don't understand it enough, which is what I am trying to do.

I believe I am right in the reason for the current movement although I could have put it better! We only get tainted views in the UK of what goes on in the US.

[edit on 18/9/2009 by LightFantastic]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 06:03 AM
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reply to post by LightFantastic
 


I'm saying the religious here will take offense to your thread or any thread that questions them. There will be an orchestrated take down and derailment of this thread. I've seen it 100's of times.. they'll pound and pound until everyone else leaves and it's 'mission accomplished'.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 06:07 AM
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you should read the Einstein quote about "professional atheists" and what motivates them.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 06:24 AM
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Light... you'll be like a sheep to the slaughter in this thread. No one can help you, the cabal here (I think you know what I am referring to) have moved quickly on this one and it will be derailed and shut down within hours.



I'm saying the religious here will take offense to your thread or any thread that questions them. There will be an orchestrated take down and derailment of this thread. I've seen it 100's of times.. they'll pound and pound until everyone else leaves and it's 'mission accomplished'

k I have no idea where this is coming from. I believe in a creator God
to make far more sense then some theory from the mind of man. That just about any man with a brain could dream up.
I claim Chritianity and have been involved in many of these types of dicussions and I must say I haven't experienced any of this at all.
I in fact only chimed in to say, I believe you have your heading backyards.
Meaning visa versa of course. I find nothing offensive about your thread.

In reply to what this thread is about. Why would I detest or dislike science when it mostly backs up my belief in God.
In fact I believe latly science is "attacking" this faiytail more on its own
then Christians could ever beat the drum to.




[edit on 18-9-2009 by randyvs]



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by LightFantastic
Why do Creationists feel the need to attack science as fervently as they do?

I'll tell you why. Little Johnny comes home from school and says to his parents "You told me God created Adam and Eve and my teacher at school says we evolved from the apes. Who is right?"

Instead of explaining that there are different ways to view the world and that evolution doesn't necessarily doesn't mean that the bible stories are false, the parent gets angry and forms a movement with other like-minded parents. This movement collects money, employs scientists to "disprove evolution" with various poor arguments and works to change what is taught in schools to their narrow beliefs. All this effort would have been better put into helping others as with true Christian principles.

Similar attacks can be brought upon most areas of science. It is a shame for them that Creationists picked on one of the strongest theories to assault.

What will we have next? The earth is the centre of the universe? Everything in the heavens revolves around us? There are existing maths that can model that. Why not press for that to be taught? I'm sure you can get some "scientists" to support it.

Evolution is not an argument against Intelligent Design. Evolution is only a slight affront to the Garden of Eden story. Get real and do what the religious organisations have always done in the face of strong science and modify your interpretation to suit and be happy with your beliefs.




[edit on 16/9/2009 by LightFantastic]



Evolution is a weaker theory than Intelligent Design. Intelligent design has so much compelling evidence its sad people like you don't see it. I mean really you are totally blind. We just can't believe its being taught in our schools its pure lunacy.

You actually think intelligence spawns from nothing? its like saying a computer formed itself from a rock and unconsciously programmed itself to upgrade from 286,386,486,pentium so on and so forth. Its impossible. I have an idea take your watch take a hammer to it and stick it in your dryer and according to evolution theory eventually it could reassemble itself back together.

The universe is like Clockwork if you think otherwise you really need to study more. It is so complex there is 0% it spawned on its own, organized itself and created its own seeds and evolved itself with obvious unconscious intelligence to the state we are in now.

In time people will look back on history like they did the flat earth freaks and say what a bunch of lunatics those evolutionist people were. Fact is, there is a God he created the Universe and all that is in it and he loves you with all his heart.

Man rebelled against God and fell into sin. Satan came and stole deceitfully Adams authority over this earth and enslaved mankind to his will. God sent his son to die for you and take on the sins of the world. He bore your sins on the cross so that you can be free from slavery. He purchased you with his life and freed you from slavery and adopted you as a son and gave you all that he has. He made a contract (covenant) with man that all the earth is man's and all that God possesses and man will have it all for an inheritance.

He gave him authority over Satan and his power and commissioned the church to tell the world about God's mercy and compassion. Man has been pardoned, Christ took our punishment instead of us. Now all you have to do is Believe in Jesus Christ confess him with your mouth and believe in your heart and you will be saved, otherwise you will face the penalty for your crimes. This is your only chance, there are no second chances. God has put life and death before you. It is your choice. Choose life or death.


Keeper



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by reasonable
reply to post by LightFantastic
 


I'm saying the religious here will take offense to your thread or any thread that questions them. There will be an orchestrated take down and derailment of this thread. I've seen it 100's of times.. they'll pound and pound until everyone else leaves and it's 'mission accomplished'.


I have to disagree here. I see very little difference between the atheists who attack Creationists and vice versa. Only a few are rational enough to understand both sides; however, in both cases you will get bombarded with posts that revolve around what people feel and not what they think about the OP. Here, the OP seemed to be attacking instead of asking a simple question.

People are so far apart on this issue and other issues involving religion that it is almost impossible to speak to the opposition of what they oppose in a rational manner without them going rabid and nuts. It is this whole us vs. them that further ruins the world.



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