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I'm pretty tired of skeptics who are unable to think outside the box.

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posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by Mr_XIM
After all the years people have claimed aliens and such have came to earth, millions of videos, witnesses, and even those cave drawings from ancient man, NOT one, and I mean one piece of proof, nothing material wise, nothing showing the beings on video, just lights and such, not one piece of evidence. Oh we got some great stories, and we have learned from hollywood, people can create some incredible stories, but thats all you got, stories and videos of lights in a the sky, disk shaped objects that are more than likely a hoax, Roswell didn't get told till 30 years later after a certain somebody discovered they could get paid for a "story". You see, modern man once thought the pyramids was built by aliens, we now know they wasn't built by aliens. I say to believers, open "your" minds, and your thinking of logic common sense. Logic tells me, 99.99% everything from lockness monster, to well I dare say it "God" is man made myths and legends.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by Mr_XIM]


Please refer to my previous post on this thread concerning physical trace evidence. Thanks!

UFOs leave physical traces

Skyfloating may be very interested to "hear" your opinion on lack of material evidence in the face of actual material evidence.

Cheers,

Erik




posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar
You can't say that because an Alien species hasn't made an appearance on the white house lawn that they then do not exist.
They may have good taste, for example.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:16 PM
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Perhaps a bit of an example will help demonstrate the fault in this logic...

I've replaced Pathos's Alien references below with the word 'neutrino'...


Originally posted by Pathos
reply to post by Total Package
 

Your answers bring up more questions:

(1) Where is the definitive proof that Neutrinos are real?

(2) Where is the definitive proof that Neutrinos are made by nature?

(3) Why have we not seen a fully detailed neutrino on tv?

(4) What makes you an expert on neutrinos, which you have never encountered before?

(5) What makes you an expert on neutrino's environment, which you have no expert knowledge of?

(6) What makes you an expert on knowledge, which you have NEVER ever have been exposed to in any scientific journal?

(7) How can several of the Scientists know the science, psychology, materials, and philosophies of a neutrino that they have NEVER ever met?

[edit on 16-9-2009 by Pathos]



Do any of these questions shed any serious doubt on the existence of neutrinos? Nope...

Mostly because the existence of neutrinos has been documented and tested. Just like the existence of UFOs. Evidence exists for both. Period.

Ignoring that evidence does not make it go away. It merely looses one credibility within the ongoing scientific debate...

-WFA

[edit on 16-9-2009 by WitnessFromAfar]



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by Donnie Darko

Originally posted by Dynamitrios

Plus a sceptic will almost everytime be able to back up his claims by some knowledge, while a believer... well.. only believes


A true skeptic? Yes. A debunker? No. They are blind.


I am confused about the difference between a debunker and a skeptic.

What if the OP is bunk? Then does not a debunker do a service by exposing it? And if a Debunker is unable to debunk the OP doesn't that strengthen the evidence?



I'm confused at the perceived need to debunk. The burden of proof rests upon the shoulders of those who would make extraordinary claims. Belief is not a factor in a true scientific investigation.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
When you look at cave drawing, hieroglyphics, and other pieces of art, they are only open to personal-subjective interpretation. They could mean anything.


Seems no different to this day and age


In fact it was nice they left drawings in Caves



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos



Your answers bring up more questions:


Your Questions suggest we don't have answers but that doesn't mean we don't. It just means YOU don't.




(1) Where is the definitive proof that abductions are real?


What makes you think we don't have proof?




(2) Where is the definitive proof that UFOs are made by aliens?


What makes you think we don't have proof?




(3) Why have we not seen a fully detailed alien or alien made craft on tv?


What makes you think we haven't?




(4) What makes you an expert on a species, which you have never encountered before?


The possibilities for one and everything you think you deserve to have proof of before you believe it, denied you by those that have it and don't give a rats ass if you don't




(5) What makes you an expert on alien made aircraft, which you have no expert knowledge of?


The idea someone who has none has the right to say someone who does, doesn't.




(6) What makes you an expert on knowledge, which you have NEVER ever have been exposed to in any scientific journal?


The idea you are not an expert until you've had something published in a "scientific journal LOL"




(7) How can several of the UFOlogists know the science, psychology, materials, and philosophies of a species that they have NEVER ever met?


Hey dude, we got scientists that are convinced evolution is a fact and that we have all come from a "common ancestor yet all the questions as to what that was are al based on biased interpretation and wild speculation on things they imagined happened billions of years before anyone could claim an observable fact. You gonna tell them they ain't experts ?

I have seen you deny bold faced facts put right infront of your face in favor of your own cynical ideas and skepticism.

I don't believe in aliens but I don't jump on those that have a belief the possibility they exist is true and ill tell you something else pathos. If yo uhave ever had any experience in higer levels of Government research say where it requires levels of security clearances. You meet people who have had experiences where you know they have had the experience but what happens is, you become the subject of an entity which can snuff you out like a BUG and fast. That usually doesn't happen but if you were to drive down an old farm road and came across somthing, say a carcass of some dead animal but it was so strange and like NOTHING you have ever seen. You might tell the news about it, but being they are part of a CFR and even if some small time news channel did happen to air it, How long do you think it would take to mobilize a campaign to reverse the entire story, get the chump that found the thing to accept being thought of as a nutcase trying to pull off a hoax inlieu of his family and farm being taken away by some trumped up property tax he "must have over looked " and a plethora of blogs loaded to the gills with agents like yourself who inadvertently become the all volunteer forum warriors of truth write posts to people who get paid to write their own versions of the farm story that are even wilder than the real one, effectively sewing the whole kitten kaboodle up and keeping it securely known by those who have the power and the reasons to keep it from people like YOU.

Yeah people like that exist my friend and ya know I don't care if you believe it or not. But many out there know exactly what I am talking about and until it happens to YOU, we understand perfectly well your ignorance is justified by your in-experience being the difference between those who have it and those who don't and those who know it and those that think they do.

It's frustrating for many who know something they can not prove and I feel for them but they know what they know, in as much as they know something strange, something they have had a unique opportunity to see or experience and the pass polygragh tests and shrinks say they are nuts regardless. But until you have seen or been a part of the organizations that keep meticulous details like loose ends like artifacts and witness marginalized the way some of them do, you might not be so damn smug with your "superior logic" and the jaded cyinicism you confuse for skepticism.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by Stylez]



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by maybereal11

What if the OP is bunk? Then does not a debunker do a service by exposing it? And if a Debunker is unable to debunk the OP doesn't that strengthen the evidence?



Logic in thread number ? complaining about people who want facts? How dare you


I've seen three UFO's in my life. Two I think were experimental craft and one I can not explain.

I think it is a given that intelligent life would exist elsewhere in this Universe. I think we may have been visited but can not prove it.

Having said that, I will debunk or point out nonsense, lies and deception in a heart beat. I will point out delusions and products of possible mental illness also.

If anyone here thinks that they do the cause any good at all by blindly accepting every silly little video of a light in the sky or report of Mother Ships hovering overhead that are being hidden by the whole scientific community is out of touch with reality.

I think we have been visited. I think the government knows more than they let on. I think the visits are extremely rare and that most sightings are hoaxes or the products of people imaginations. I think many we see here are people wanting it to be true so badly they identify anything in the sky as an Alien visitation. I think this topic is heavily contaminated by people taking financial advantage of peoples beliefs. I think maybe one percent of the posts on this topic are even worth reading.

I know that mixing things in like Reptilians, Niburu and others are making this a laughing stock of a topic and destroying any chance of real investigation.

Don't hate the Skeptics and De-bunkers as without them, you have nothing.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by draknoir2

Belief is not a factor in a true scientific investigation.


Oh really?

Ha ha wow, you'd be surprised



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 


Hello Blaine! Nice to see you again, it's been to long!

Normally I would agree wholeheartedly with everything you just posted...

However this thread specifically is about Skeptics with the inability to think outside the box.

Many of us have already made clear the need for true skepticism.

Its the skeptics who will review the evidence of a case, and then willfully choose not to apply Occam's Razor (where ET craft is the simplest solution) to that case, that we're currently discussing in this thread.

I absolutely hear your point, however I think this thread is a bit different than the many 'Skeptics vs. Believers' threads I've seen at ATS in the past.

This one is particularly about 'pseudo-skeptics'.

Nice to see you here though Blaine! I've missed your insights!

-WFA



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by Blaine91555
I think we have been visited. I think the government knows more than they let on. I think the visits are extremely rare and that most sightings are hoaxes or the products of people imaginations. I think many we see here are people wanting it to be true so badly they identify anything in the sky as an Alien visitation. I think this topic is heavily contaminated by people taking financial advantage of peoples beliefs. I think maybe one percent of the posts on this topic are even worth reading.

I know that mixing things in like Reptilians, Niburu and others are making this a laughing stock of a topic and destroying any chance of real investigation.

Don't hate the Skeptics and De-bunkers as without them, you have nothing.


Well, with the exception of giving an opinion on said topics being used to contaminate the propensity for those groups believing in such topics, ever gaining any real pause for investigation by anyone not authorized to come within miles of such an investigation, I think you have got the picture and I can appreciate your frustration and understand your need to know but how can I put this without saying it blunt.,, umm get used to it I guess is the best thing I could offer. Some of the things I have heard suggest we ain't gonna know, EVER.

I hope they know what they are doing



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar

Its the skeptics who will review the evidence of a case, and then willfully choose not to apply Occam's Razor (where ET craft is the simplest solution) to that case, that we're currently discussing in this thread.
-WFA


Funny,, I didn't see that in the op protocols for qualifying to respond to this thread. Is that an "unsaid rule" for the "box skeptics" or ??



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:11 PM
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I hesitated responding to this thread because some here at ATS have accused me of being like some of the types mentioned, arrogant, ignorant, and just a all in all dreamer.

Well first off, if I have offended anyone I am truly sorry, it was never my intention. I have been at this UFO puzzle far longer than most of the publicly recognized names. I have over 30 years of dealing with all the materials I could get my hands on outside of the intelligence community. And before you judge anyone you should check the motivations that drive them.

I am not driven by greed, profit, or publicity. I don't have friends in high places who are manipulating their ,covert, warped and perverse agenda threw me. I am a free thinker who intends on staying that way.

Yes, I have seen the phenomenon with my own eyes so when I say they are real its not being ARROGANT, its addressing fact. Who they are, why they are here are all debatable, but don't try to debate the subject until you have researched who and what you are, really!

You want Unity? Okay, here and now I throw my 30 years on the table. We need honest and sincere skeptics who are not on the payroll of some secret society or black op organization. We need people to question everything to the point of absurdity. We need you to wake up from the dream you have been living all your lives. Is it arrogant to state "We are all shipped here in a Fed Ex box, free delivery, but mandatory ignorance included, no extra charge", or is it fact!

No, you do not have enemies, you have "Owners". Again, is this a horrible fact, or fancy fiction. You decide.

The story I have uncovered can be verified threw researching the ufo phenomenon with a completely open mind, pure heart, and a drive to understand the truth. And as it turns out, UFOs have far more in common with our ancient past, than they do with galactic travel. But why should you listen to me, I haven't written any books, directed any movies, or been interviewed by any talk show hosts. Why listen to me? Because for the last 30 years I have been on the outside of that "Box", looking in.........

No doubt Unity is on its way, its just a matter of time.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by Stylez

Originally posted by draknoir2

Belief is not a factor in a true scientific investigation.


Oh really?

Ha ha wow, you'd be surprised


I did say true, as in ideal.

I am well aware of the politics and egotism within the scientific community... but in the end the science prevails, eventually. What distinguishes a belief from a pet theory is that even the most dearly held hypothesis will eventually fall in the face of contradictory evidence.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by Stylez
 


Sorry for the confusion, that was merely my wording of what it appeared Kleverone meant in his OP. I'll let Kleverone answer for himself here, but it seemed clear to me that true skepticism was not the topic of this thread...

Occam's Razor is merely a tool scientists use to help formulate hypotheses.
It bugs me to see skeptics utilize Occam's Razor to 'dis-prove' a case, and then refuse to apply it to a case where the simplest solution is an extraterretrial craft. Cases like the BOLA case...

Hope that helps clarify my response.


-WFA

Edited to fix spelling - Occam's razor is a tool, not a took


[edit on 16-9-2009 by WitnessFromAfar]



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:54 PM
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I can understand it somewhat. I am a logical person even though I do believe in ufos and a lot of paranormal. I think it is important to weed out the false ufo reports and pranks. If we jump on every report as being factual then it looks real bad when a event is found out to be a prank or false. It really makes the ufo community look bad.

There is nothing wrong with listening. I believe ignorance is one of mankind's worse traits there is nothing wrong with listening with a open mind and considering the possibilities. It doesn't mean you abandoned all logic and reason. There is a balance.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 05:09 PM
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For most believers, skeptical people who do believe in possibility of ET visitation are your friends, not enemies. It is strange to label entire groups of people as pseudosomething when in reality, level of skepticism will vary among all who think. There is no such thing as pure skeptic; it is only an abstraction of a philosophical thought that is impossible for humans to achieve anyway. I tend not to believe anyone who says to actually be a pure skeptic. He/She wouldn't believe in one's own existence, although with a level of rationality you can say that you believe in possibility a simulation.

Anyway, in a nutshell, skeptics do believe if proved something, which cathegorizes out pure skepticism. I don't care if its that way, it ain't perfect, but human mind is not perfect for scientific thinking anyway so it doesn't really matter as we are all in the same train.

I'm pretty much so tired of these kinds of threads that I don't care to write very coherently anymore. What's the point? I have no need to convert any believers to anything, yet I keep myself skeptical just because of possible other plausible answers and mere volume of hoaxes and misinterpretations alone. I do however have a need to find people who are willing to think openly BUT with skeptical mind, to avoid jumping in the well when rest of the crowd just believe and jump in there anyway. And no, people who dislike skeptics have not won, they have managed to create their own box of thought that other people (such as skeptics) don't bother to interfere with unless forced by motivation to reality.

All in all, we don't have to know entire reality spectrum to make good, educated guesses as what things are ought to be. Nowadays, we are usually right in predictions like that. It wasn't always the case, as science was not developed enough to do such things accurately. We still find things that are against everyting we have thought things to be so far, but it is getting rarer and rarer as time passes by. Yet it is still possible to find solutions for FTL, and magnetic monopoles allow perpetual motion machines if ever found by anyone. We may never find any, but predictoins of great many physics says those should exist somewhere, and many, many skeptics believe that. Where's your debunking now, eh?

Personally, I don't care if I happen to disbelieve a post made by somebody, who has no real evidence at all. I admit freely and open mindedly, that there are cases which are beyond all logic and reason unexplainable, but it doesn't mean that any explanation that we can think of is neccessarily true. UFO's and ET's fall into this cathegory, sorry but it is so.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by WitnessFromAfar
 


I understand what you are saying and agree in part. Those who truly are opposed to the idea we may have been visited must be basing their thoughts on fear of some kind I suppose.

Some I think fear that the existence of intelligent life elsewhere threatens their religious beliefs. It enhances mine however. To others though it is threatening to them and their view of the world.

Others of course are just people who get off on arguing for arguments sake. The name callers, the ridiculers and the like. We know however the more intelligent a person is the more likely they are to have an interest in this or accept its possibility.

We do have a real problem with this topic attracting people who are destructive to our ability to do honest research or cause disclosure. But those people are not necessarily the skeptics, but instead some of the believers who have injected outright bizarre topics into this.

Those you talk about who's minds close up shop when the idea that Aliens exist are reacting to a fear of some kind. You have to look at the motivation. Fear is the cause of most of our cultures woes. Fear of the unknown being among them.

If the Biblical Angels turn out to be Aliens, does that destroy ones Faith or enhance it for instance. Many accept that life is out there in the sense of their religious beliefs but they see this as a threat to their core beliefs, that which makes them who they are. What if an Alien comes along and we find that they were the source of much of our religious beliefs. You can see where fear of this topic could come from.

Then we have the genuine Trolls who are here to make fun of the crazy people who believe in Aliens. Trolls are like school Bullies who act entirely out of fear. As we all know, once you face down a Bully they are exposed and go away never to bother you again.

In the end though the controversy is healthy for this or any alternative topic. It keeps everyone honest. It stops us from letting our own predilection to believe from causing us to just accept things as true without investigation or proof. It helps immunize us against the bad people profiteering off those who believe out of a need to believe that there is something, someone better in this this Universe than in the hard, hard world they face every day.

Perhaps instead of discussing ways of getting rid of them, we should take the adult stance of tolerance. Our conversations are just words on a screen. We can ignore them, read them, copy them but they can not harm us. Fear works both ways. What do we have to fear from those who think we are nuts or who ridicule? Words only have the power over us we let them have.

We should just be comforted by the fact that we are able to have these discussions freely, without any real fear and that we have such a wonderful place to do it and to share information. One day I fully expect to log in and find a post with the smoking gun that opens the door to a fuller understanding of this Universe we know so little about.

We, including me all fight our personal prejudices every day as they work against us and our understanding of ourselves and our environment. Locking people who's minds are closed out of the discussion will never open their eyes anymore than some of the silly nonsense posted by over zealous believers will. Only through interacting with them will their minds open to new thoughts and ideas.

My answer is to just ignore them if you want and move on with the discussion and investigations. Why spend time in countless threads complaining about them. How does that further any cause? It is posting facts and truths that will open peoples eyes. Becoming an exclusionary club won't help with anything.

Debate keeps us honest. Debate keeps us from deluding ourselves and falling for charlatans. Debate uncovers evidence. Debate is the reason ATS is such a valuable resource.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by Stylez
Some of the things I have heard suggest we ain't gonna know, EVER.



Its only a matter of time. Sooner or later the door will open. Perhaps not in our lifetimes but there is a lot to be said for those who lay the foundation.

How many believe now?


While most depictions of extraterrestrials are confined to science fiction, nearly two-thirds of Americans believe that some form of alien life exists somewhere in the universe, according to a new survey.

The telephone poll, which questioned 1,000 Americans, found that 60 percent of those surveyed believe extraterrestrial life exists on other planets.


I'd say a good foundation has been laid. Minds are opening.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
...just as with the believer crowd, the skeptics do have a small number of folks that can't/wouldn't admit they are wrong in the face of any evidence.

Yes --

It seems to me that there are just as many "blind believers" on ATS who will believe any alien story presented to them as there are "close-minded skeptics" who absolutely refuse to accept any occurrence that is out of the ordinary.

Both of these groups are equally wrong, in my opinion.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by Stylez

Originally posted by kleverone

Originally posted by zaiger
And I'm tired of people who believe anything someone puts inside their "box"
2nd line


Not really sure what you mean here


ha ha I think what he means is the same thing I thought when I read the title. I'm sick of people who always think the other guy's thinking is in a box.


When someone assumes that the only form of propulsion could be through fossil fuels, then yes I consider that inside the box. Call it lack of imagination or creative thought if you will.

And I will say this for the last time for the few of you who seem to have some trouble reading what I typed.

I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SKEPTICS IN GENERAL! I have a problem with those who make the claims that I referenced in my OP.
Do not put words in my mouth.

Thank you.



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