I'm pretty tired of skeptics who are unable to think outside the box.

reply to post by zorgon

And you always state that this or that charlatan is doing a disservice to REAL UFO investigators...

I used to say that, a lot, under the illusion that there are any real UFO investigators in the first place. You called me on that a while back and I paused to think about it. I couldn't point out who I thought was a good enough researcher to put my vote on, partly because the environment they are forced to operate in has too bad of a signal to noise ration. I have since modified my views slightly, but they are still along the same lines, just a bigger scope.

Lately I have more or less been vocal about the disservice to the subject and the community in general. The best researcher around doesn't stand a chance of getting to the bottom of anything unless we divorce ourselves from some of the stuff that contributes to the giggle factor.

The best UFO researcher out there can only be the main stream media, when operating in the proper climate. Capitalism will be the ultimate finder of the truth. But in order for that to take place, there must be an audience that is sizable enough to warrant msm newscycles and competitive story chasing in order to scoop the other guy and sell more advertising as a result of the growing audience. Under this type of scrutiny, the truth can't hide long. Real whislteblowers would be more apt to come out, and reporters would pepper the President at every press briefing. It needs to be borderline scandalous really.

But none of that can happen until we shed the giggle factor and clamp down on the vocal majority that always seems to get us painted as tin foil hat wearing fools.

I learned that if one is skeptical about official sources and lets the people on ATS know this; one will be attacked.

I sometimes make inquiries and get attacked for that - but that's normally just when I am questioning information from an official source. The official skeptics here are rarely skeptical of official sources or what they are told by them - and often will blindly defend these sources or chastise me for even questioning them.

I could talk about information availability and it's role in this regard, but I'd just be wasting my time.









[edit on 15-9-2009 by Exuberant1]

reply to post by kleverone

IF i had to choose one of the two sides, then i would undoubtely join the believers' one:
my enthusiasm progressively decreased time after time though
We must distinguish between real cases and garbage:
It's A Dirty Job But Someone's Got To Do It
The alternative would be a place where everyone believes in everything, which would be wrong.
When someone endorses the story of the alien caught in a RAT TRAP in Mexico we all must stop and think wat is going on out there.
At the same time, when someone tries to dismiss the strange story of JAL 1628 as JUPITER, then i think that they are buying the (wrong) mushrooms from the same guy.
kleverone, this is some extremely frustrating subject matter, the 99% of what we see turns out to be garbage: we are in front of some choice: ignore or debunk, what's better in your opinion?

Originally posted by kleverone
When did you come to terms with the fact that there is now way anyone could possibly have a better understanding of physics then us? Of possibly a whole set of physics all-together? (Quantum Physics tells us this this possible).

Whomever comes to such a conclusion needs to start READING, at least in order to realize how HUGE is the universe, lol. Or find some doctor.
In my opinion there could be more or less some one million of civilizations to say the LEAST, what we lack is the proof of their existence, bro.
To CONCLUDE that we are alone is something that sounds like middle ages: and middle ages fortunately ended some time ago because people decided to put it to rest. Because they got tired, just like you


[edit on 15/9/2009 by internos]

yeah, honestly i think that we get so wrapped up
in our little bubble called earth that we forget how
LIMITLESS the universe really is.
if you think about it, Humans havent really been exposed to anything outside of the moon. Not because we dont want to, but because we cant. Maybe this shortage of exposure causes others to be skeptic.

There are skeptics and there are skeptics. Some have already decided there is no such thing as alien visitation on Earth, so they feel it's their job to debunk any and everything, by any means possible. Then there are those who do try to approach each with an unbiased, open mind. But those are not many honestly.

As far as your topic — that aliens cannot travel here — I agree, and I am baffled by the "professional" skeptics who said they couldn't be here for that reason. Even Carl Sagan. Not possible to get here across the vast distances, so not possible we are visited? Are you kidding me?

We have done things in the last 200 years that 300 years ago, people would laugh at. We have broken barriers, only to realize that's just the tip of the iceberg, and break more. We are amazed by quantum physics, but are still unable to explain much of it. But we can definitively say there is no way possible any advanced species could travel great distances? I'm baffled someone as intelligent as Sagan would even say that. Unless he was disinfo, and asked to say this. I think this is possible. I can't otherwise fathom how someone intelligent like Sagan could categorically state something like this. Not even Einstein made such a bold claim.

It in my mind, is the most feeble reason for non-visitation. I'd think a race 10,000 years advanced over us, would have perhaps SEVERAL options to get here in a short period of time. I'd think that their inability to find our small planet in a huge galaxy makes more sense, than that they would be unable to get here.

Originally posted by fleabit
As far as your topic — that aliens cannot travel here — I agree, and I am baffled by the "professional" skeptics who said they couldn't be here for that reason. Even Carl Sagan. Not possible to get here across the vast distances, so not possible we are visited? Are you kidding me?

Sorry I have to correct you about what Carl Sagan said:



He thinks ET life is likely, and sees no reason why we can't imagine civilizations thousands or millions of years more advanced than us.

"I think it's much more reasonable, if you want to speculate on the possibility of extraterrestrial intelligence, that there are very rare visits from extraterrestrials to the earth. There's no evidence for this, I just say that's not implausible"-Carl Sagan

So why would you accuse Carl Sagan of saying that ETs couldn't be visiting here? We have enough attitudes about skeptics without those kinds of inaccuracies about people's viewpoints. His biggest gripe was people believing ALL UFOs are ET in origin, and as we know 95-98% of UFO sightings are usually explained or explainable as something other than ET, so once we are down to the 2% remaining cases that are truly unexplainable (and could be ET), there really aren't so many, just like he says.

Whinging about skeptics/believers is a dull topic.

I love the subject and possibility of alien contact on Earth, but I think of myself as a skeptic.
I believe in alien life. I believe in the possibility of intelligent alien life. These beliefs are waiting for the evidence so I can change my Belief into Knowing

All I've seen so far is fuzzy blobs of light caught on camera, witness statements, mis-identified objects, hoaxes. Nothing to change my belief. Doesn't stop me from looking though!

All well and good to think outside the box, but unless you use the evidence available then its faith and extrapolation.

We both believe, we're just approaching it from different angles.

Good post OP,I think skeptics are needed to keep things level headed around here.Having said that I'm amazed at the demi god status here to some?There posts are starting to reflect this,as they write before the small group chanting out their names in prayer on threads this side of the site!

I know ufos are out there as I have seen them with my own eyes,I dont know who flys them but If one is to believe just one of the many accounts of close encounters with aliens or abductions then one could bring that reasoning into the equation that Aliens might be flying some of them.

Of course skeptics here would,and have said in other threads here they are all LIARS.There is no reasoning,its as simple as that-No one has ever encountered an inteligent alien species not of this earth in our history-Aliens live so far away from us they wouldnt be able to get here-why would they be interested in us-

What makes them say this?Perhaps years of looking at the stars with their little scopes in their back yards makes them know more than others?We believers cant help them if they cant see anything up there!Us believers hardly ever look into the night sky,lol-we are just lucky enought to notice these things as we go around our life here on this beutifull planet

I think they are valuable to this site,and they also amusing when they go into deny mode

To Clarify, I have no problem with skeptics. None at all!

I'm just tired of the "experts" who assume that since we can't travel through space that no one else can either. I never once said or implied that if you are a skeptic then you are wrong. I would probably be a skeptic as well had I not had severly sightings in my lifetime.

Thanks to everyone for their comments.

Originally posted by noangels
Good post OP,I think skeptics are needed to keep things level headed around here.

I don't.

They are not necessary at all and they only stifle discussion and derail the threads. We have the whole internet to fact-check.

*I am referring to those skeptics who are absolutely not skeptical of anything official and who attack people who are. These "skeptics" know who they are.

Why do they Inhabit ATS of all places? Oh yeah, they are here to balance things out and keep things "level headed" - protecting Ufology and innocent minds alike...


[edit on 16-9-2009 by Exuberant1]

Contrary to some beliefs, both believers and skeptics have a place in the conversations herein...

The believers bring us the stories, happenings, and other assorted, and sometimes fascinating, goings on in the world around us...and not just UFO's.

The skeptic brings us the "oh really?", and the "it may really be this." and other assorted looks that help us winnow the chaff from the grain. That's how true understanding developes.

I'm firmly in both camps. Strange things happen, but no way are all of them aliens from space, or bigfoot, or ghosties...

Originally posted by kleverone
To Clarify, I have no problem with skeptics. None at all!

I'm just tired of the "experts" who assume that since we can't travel through space that no one else can either.

###################################################

At what point did your brain tell you that we are the epitome of advancement?

When did you come to terms with the fact that there is now way anyone could possibly have a better understanding of physics then us? Of possibly a whole set of physics all-together? (Quantum Physics tells us this this possible).

Is it because we are insanely arrogant or insanely stupid.

I know I am preaching to the choir but I needed to vent.

Oh I agree with that. That is a silly thought!

Just working with whats generally accepted:
The universe is approx 14 Billion years old.
The Earth is approx 4.5 Billion year old
Humans are though to be around 250,000 and 400,000 years old

Who is to say that intelligent life on another planet in another system didn't evolve whilst we were picking ticks out of each others fur, or whilst dinosaurs roamed the Earth or even before our sun formed?
To compare, look at where we are now. just over 100 years ago, powered flight was a dream. 200 years ago, we had no electricity. Until about 10,000 years ago, civilisation was a pipe dream, if we knew what a pipe was back then.
Compared with the age of the universe, that's not even a blink.

Then you have another possibility, which can make you swallow a bit of humble pie, what if a species developed which was smarter than us? Evolved to where we are technologically, in half the time? That isn't really such a large leap of faith.

Another small leap of faith is what happens when a species develops something before you? Hero of Alexandria built a steam powered toy 2000 years ago. The man was a genius, but for some reason did not make that small leap of technology to have the toy power something. This small tweak, could have brought the industrial revolution forward by almost 1800 years! This would beg the question of where would we be now if he had

I'm a skeptic and I do believe in the possibility of humans not being the cleverest kid in the class

*star*

I was tired of it too.

But then I became tired of being tired of it. Where do I go from here?

Originally posted by Psycontagious

But then I became tired of being tired of it. Where do I go from here?

There are plenty of other places on the internet you can post your material.

Then when you have it perfected and are ready for some abuse; come back to ATS and post it here.

That's what I do.

Originally posted by Exuberant1

Originally posted by noangels
Good post OP,I think skeptics are needed to keep things level headed around here.

I don't.

They are not necessary at all and they only stifle discussion and derail the threads. We have the whole internet to fact-check.

*I am referring to those skeptics who are absolutely not skeptical of anything official and who attack people who are. These "skeptics" know who they are.

Why do they Inhabit ATS of all places? Oh yeah, they are here to balance things out and keep things "level headed" - protecting Ufology and innocent minds alike...

[edit on 16-9-2009 by Exuberant1]

*Summary - anyone who doesn't agree with Exuberant1

One must understand that the skeptics you refer to that are inherently prolific on the MSM, represent in gross, the general population. And the general population is fraught with religious and scientific thinking and beliefs at a very basic and fundamental level mixed with and impregnated with fear brought about by fear. That is not to say that fundamental thinking is necessarily negative but instead it should be recognized as a step or phase that we all pass through at one time or another in our own lives. This is a very personal and intimate thing and it is indeed a necessary step. We must crawl before we run.

Based on that understanding and maybe a little compassion, we see that one must be patient with the process. No great leaps in knowledge in any realm of critical thinking or science have ever had the satisfaction of enjoying instant acceptance. Just be grateful that for your openmindedness today you are not flogged, hung or burned at the stake as a non indoctrinated religious heretic and outcast.

Count your blessings, Bro and together in our number, we'll keep fighting the good fight. Patience!

Cheers,

Erik

[edit on 22/SepamWed, 16 Sep 2009 09:13:02 -0500/08 by redwoodjedi]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by fleabit
As far as your topic — that aliens cannot travel here — I agree, and I am baffled by the "professional" skeptics who said they couldn't be here for that reason. Even Carl Sagan. Not possible to get here across the vast distances, so not possible we are visited? Are you kidding me?

Sorry I have to correct you about what Carl Sagan said:

(click to open player in new window)

LOL that video has Sagan with some other phoney sitting next to him... saying there is no evidence for Extra-terrestrial life and no evidence of UFOs existing. Who the hell are these idiots kidding.

This is why I don't like Sagan... it was obvious from very early on he was part of the disinformation network.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by Total Package]

lol gotta love the scope nerds!That one with the eye patch was amusing,I assume his friend Sagan sitting to the left of him is used to wearing two eye patches at the same time

pompus and arogant,they dont even have to open their mouths to show that!

Originally posted by noangels
lol gotta love the scope nerds!That one with the eye patch was amusing,I assume his friend Sagan sitting to the left of him is used to wearing two eye patches at the same time

pompus and arogant,they dont even have to open their mouths to show that!

Yup. Welcome to the Scientific community... where arrogance and ego comes before acceptance.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by Total Package]

Debunkers of ET presence on Earth point to two things:

1) Science hasn't recovered (or recognized) an alien body or ship
2) Aliens "wouldn't be able to get here" at the speed of light (VERY premature assumption)