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Something to help our "truthers" movement

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posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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No serious revelations here, just something I think we need to consider every single time we try to get others less informed to open up a little. When we're trying to assert that our government was compliant in any way with 9/11 it is such a hard pill for them to swallow because they think we're referring to the government they see on TV all the time. Which is not the case.




posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by rygi23
 


In the nutshell they have to look at the pre 9/11 scenario and have a long hard think...

1). America was running in red like most other countries, government borrowing was at an all time high.

2). All governments have a vested interest in the stock market and most have an impressive portfolio of stocks.

3). Short options and derivative stocks prosper in an erratic market.

4). You have a lot of these stocks.

5). You control the market and can make it erratic.

6). You do just this.

Within weeks of re-opening the market, international derivative stocks made in excess of $80 trillion dollars, would you murder 3000 of your own people to get your economy back on track?, plus loads of side profits also.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by Seventh
reply to post by rygi23
 


In the nutshell they have to look at the pre 9/11 scenario and have a long hard think...

1). America was running in red like most other countries, government borrowing was at an all time high.

2). All governments have a vested interest in the stock market and most have an impressive portfolio of stocks.

3). Short options and derivative stocks prosper in an erratic market.

4). You have a lot of these stocks.

5). You control the market and can make it erratic.

6). You do just this.

Within weeks of re-opening the market, international derivative stocks made in excess of $80 trillion dollars, would you murder 3000 of your own people to get your economy back on track?, plus loads of side profits also.
Great info but my intent with this thread was not to point out reasons why 9/11 happened. On sites like ATS, you're preaching to the choir with those points. To get all of America privy to what we are seeing, the very first thing we need to do for alot of folks is atleast make it plausible to them that such a thing could even occure, even in the U.S. Showing people that it's the shadow elitist government that really runs the show is a good first step, for the people we're trying to wake up don't believe it even exists. Our goal should not be to learn more for ourselves and those already awake, but to take every chance to make it more fathomable to the masses so that their superficial questions are answered and they can start researching themselves and spread the knowledge like a domino effect around the world.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by rygi23
No serious revelations here, just something I think we need to consider every single time we try to get others less informed to open up a little. When we're trying to assert that our government was compliant in any way with 9/11 it is such a hard pill for them to swallow because they think we're referring to the government they see on TV all the time. Which is not the case.


All right, then, consider this-

a) Every single time, and I do mean EVERY single time, I get into a discussion with you truthers, in the end you always just cover your ears and yell "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!". The truthers are not here to discuss the truth behind the 9/11 attack. They're here to preach their conspiracy stories and get others to believe what they themselves believe, regardless of what the truth actually is, and they simply don't want to hear anything which contradicts them. If you want others to listen to what you're saying then you necessarily have to be an adult and listen to what other people are saying to you.

b) another problem you have is that most of you can't even agree with what the supposed secret conspiracy even is. One guy says it's controlled demolitions. Another guy says it's laser beams from outer space. Yet another guy says there never even were any planes and they wqere all holograms. Some people say it was staged by Bush. Others say it was staged by the Israelis. I've even talked to one woman who insisted the attack was staged by a secret Satan worshipping cult who've been staging conspiracies since the Knights Templar. Maybe you ought to rein in the crackpots in your ranks and get your stories straight amongst yourselves first and then get back to us...?

c) That's not even counting the fact that your stories don't even make a microbe of sense to begin with. Why the heck would the conspirators waste their time crashing planes into the towers to conceal bombs when bombs were already used back in 1993? Why the heck would the conspirators make a fake crash site in Shanksville, only to cover up the fake crash site they made? Oh, and if this is a false flag operation, then why the heck would they frame that toilet of a country of Afghanistan and not Iraq? The conspirators behind all these secret plots sound like they're a bunch of drunken retards, or something.

d) that's not counting the REAL problem- you truthers really have no idea what the heck you're even talking about. You all get 100% of your information from these damned fool conspiracy websites set up to incite false public unrest in order to get people to buy t-shirts, DVDs, baseball caps, etc etc etc, who are obviously going to give you a ridiculously one sided picture. Yeah, you all can recite the Northwoods document by heart, but I have yet to meet ONE truther who ever actually bothered to read the 9/11 commission report. Thus, you keep asking inane questions which have already been answered years ago (I.E. Was there a shoot down order to destroy United 93? Answer- yes, there was, it's in the commission report. You didn't know that, did you?) Only to the truthers does it make sense to actively avoid looking at material perinent to the 9/11 attack.

Did it ever occur to you that the problem with your having so much difficulty convincing anyone of anything isn't with us, but rather, the problem is actually with you?



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


Why is it Dave that every time we have debated, we get to a certain point and you do not reply any more?, I throw down a challenge you and me in the debate forum, I have made several threads lately that show things exactly how they are, and not one has been 100% proved wrong, I notice the absence of the `Air squib` brigade in my `Increase what you see with videos package`, so what about it Dave, just you and me?.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Seventh
Why is it Dave that every time we have debated, we get to a certain point and you do not reply any more?, I throw down a challenge you and me in the debate forum, I have made several threads lately that show things exactly how they are, and not one has been 100% proved wrong, I notice the absence of the `Air squib` brigade in my `Increase what you see with videos package`, so what about it Dave, just you and me?.


I assure you, it is certainly not intentional, becuase I definitely do want to give an honest answer to an honest question. For the most part, I'll post in one forum, see that noone is posting there for a while, then I'll post to another forum, and then when I get back to the original forum there's now 100 more posts and I can't find where I left off. Worse, more than a few times people will create multiple discussion threads over the same topic and I'll lose track of which one it was I was posting in. I don't respond simply becuase I don't see the question.

Ummm, "air squibs"? Are you referring to those blasts of air and dust being forced out of the towers as they were collapsing? What about them?



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


Here on this forum I see many guys my side of the fence, and to the best of my knowledge I don`t think I have ever seen one thread depicting laser beams, Martians, holograms etc, in fact a high percent of the threads do contain some pretty good material, so I really do think your perception of what you say you see here and what actually is seen here, is based purely on media demeaning, and really does give you a tarnished and horribly flawed assessment of the average *twoofer* that posts here.

And the `Air squibs` you requested......


(click to open player in new window)



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 08:47 PM
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GoodOlDave...the things you've seen people claim about 9/11 are absurd and rediculous to say the least. Personally, I wouldn't ever think to jeopardize the well educated and rational search for facts, nor the faith we all should have in our country. Most everyday American people do not condone the sheer stupidity behind such theories. There are just so many questions that victims families, NYC police officers and firefighters, and some of our great country's best minds have that are just simply being ignored...and that is unAmerican. If an American has a question, our government which was made by the people and for the people better damn well do what we hired them to do. I can definately understand your view and respect it as much as my own. No need for people to divide themselves over one issue in life.



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by Seventh
Here on this forum I see many guys my side of the fence, and to the best of my knowledge I don`t think I have ever seen one thread depicting laser beams, Martians, holograms etc, in fact a high percent of the threads do contain some pretty good material, so I really do think your perception of what you say you see here and what actually is seen here, is based purely on media demeaning, and really does give you a tarnished and horribly flawed assessment of the average *twoofer* that posts here.


On the contrary, not even a month ago a "no planer" was arguing to be allowed to present his case here on ATS that there couldn't have been any plane hitting any of the towers. Apparently he tried to go to other conspiracy discussion forums but he was kicked out. I found it amusing that it wasn't people from my side who were shouting him down, but your fellow truthers here. It's rather ironic that you're all guilty of the exact same censorship and suppression that you accuse us of committing, or at least, that's what this guy's point apparently was.

No planers really ARE out there...

...and I did encounter one woman in another discussion forum who honestly did believe the real culprits behind the 9/11 are a secret society of Satan worshippers infiltrating all of society, and the 9/11 attack is just the latest in a long line of conspiracies going all the way back to the Knights Templar. That was a few months ago and yet it still gives me plenty to say WTF over even now.

If you don't believe anything else I tell you, then believe this- I'm NOT making any of my statements up about the claims you truthers are making.


And the `Air squibs` you requested......


I thank you for presenting this. What is the relevence of this to any of your arguments?



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by rygi23
GoodOlDave...the things you've seen people claim about 9/11 are absurd and rediculous to say the least. Personally, I wouldn't ever think to jeopardize the well educated and rational search for facts, nor the faith we all should have in our country. Most everyday American people do not condone the sheer stupidity behind such theories. There are just so many questions that victims families, NYC police officers and firefighters, and some of our great country's best minds have that are just simply being ignored...and that is unAmerican. If an American has a question, our government which was made by the people and for the people better damn well do what we hired them to do. I can definately understand your view and respect it as much as my own. No need for people to divide themselves over one issue in life.


I absolutely, positively, agree, if the public wants answers, particuilarly over somethign as dreadful as the 9/11 attack, then we deserve an honest answer. However, suppose the line between the victim's families and the outright crackpots become blurred, like this guy-




He has my sympathies that his cousin was killed in the attack, but claiming there's some secret new world order cabal (the illuminati, the Jews, the freemasons, he doesn't say) pullign strings behind the scenes to commit staged terrorist attacks to create a one world gov't is as goofball as it gets. The closest they came to such a cabal was the Communists, but they quickly found out that Chinese communists were different from Soviet communists which were different from East German Communists who were different from American communists. Heck, China and Russia were one step away from outright war with each other, back during the 80's. The world is just plain too big for any world dominating gov't to last very long.

The point is, how can you expect us to take your claims seriously when you can't even agree amongst yourselves as to what the secret conspiracy actually is?



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by Seventh
And the `Air squibs` you requested......

Wow, never payed attention to the collapses in that kind of slo-mo detail. Evenly-spaced explosives being detonated on the right while the tower tips to the left.

With only 3-6 core columns out of 47 damaged in the south tower, the only thing that could make those buildings do what they did is with explosives.

I've been thinking about this alot lately and I have a message to those who carried out 9/11:

You should not have brought those buildings down on 9/11.

If those buildings weren't brought down on 9/11, I wouldn't be here. There was enough structural damage to the towers to warrant a demolition. But WTC 7 had to come down also for some reason, otherwise it wouldn't have been brought down either.

Sure there are plenty of unanswered questions about 9/11. But the thing that screams "INSIDE JOB" the most is the controlled demolition of the WTC because it had to have been planned and set up well before 9/11.

If those buildings simply had not been brought down, I might either be on the government loyalist side or not even wasting any of my time at all on this subject.



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave




On the contrary, not even a month ago a "no planer" was arguing to be allowed to present his case here on ATS that there couldn't have been any plane hitting any of the towers. Apparently he tried to go to other conspiracy discussion forums but he was kicked out. I found it amusing that it wasn't people from my side who were shouting him down, but your fellow truthers here. It's rather ironic that you're all guilty of the exact same censorship and suppression that you accuse us of committing, or at least, that's what this guy's point apparently was.
No planers really ARE out there...



Dave you are doing it again bud, okay you are explaining a point and say we are all guilty, you really need to throw that brush out you tar everyone with, stereotyping is a very blinkered way to look at any aspect of anything,

`A Russian guy stole my car`, `All Russian guys are car thieves`.

Also the above statement is both hypocritical and really shows up your lack of understanding of what a high percentage of truthers views are based on...

A). You state we are all fruitcakes and are a sandwich short of a picnic, then you go on to state that it was truthers themselves who demeaned his thread.
What`s it to be? -

B). One thread out of the thousands created here inclines with your beliefs, whilst on the other hand truthers as far as reality goes are on the same side as you guys, now there`s some food for thought.




...and I did encounter one woman in another discussion forum who honestly did believe the real culprits behind the 9/11 are a secret society of Satan worshippers infiltrating all of society, and the 9/11 attack is just the latest in a long line of conspiracies going all the way back to the Knights Templar. That was a few months ago and yet it still gives me plenty to say WTF over even now.



Dave does it not dawn on you that some people have mental problems?,

`Random person on forum opposes OS thus is a truther and believes Satan done it`.

`All people who oppose the OS and think Devils disciples done it are truthers`.




If you don't believe anything else I tell you, then believe this- I'm NOT making any of my statements up about the claims you truthers are making.



It`s fine Dave I really do believe you, how can anything stress the emphasis any more than it has been, you witnessed a guy stating a NPT to which he was debunked/demeaned/derailed by truthers, and someone whom obviously is suffering from some form of psychological disorder expressing her views from a Salem`s Lot point of view, honestly Dave no need to explain any more, I see where you are coming from.




I thank you for presenting this. What is the relevence of this to any of your arguments?



Mmmm this...



Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Ummm, "air squibs"? Are you referring to those blasts of air and dust being forced out of the towers as they were collapsing? What about them?



Just to put a really simple point over here, Air Squibs were a by product of compressed air that was expelled through windows, the compressed air being produced by a floor pancaking onto another, the collapse in the video is presented at a reduced fps, clearly showing an abundance of Air Squibs just two points here..

1). There is a bastid great gaping hole caused by a plane and such etc, how can you compress air in this environment?.

2). How can the by product caused by floors pancaking onto each other, be produced before the floors collapse?.

Off to drown a witch now at the local pond
.

[edit on 17-9-2009 by Seventh]



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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GoodOlDave...again, just like the obtuse theories you relayed in your first post, the "no planes" and "satan worshipers/knights templar" stuff is hideous to the vast majority of people who have rational questions. It's rather impolite to categorize people in any way, including as "you truthers". No matter what anyone believes about anything, their thoughts on one subject doesn't encapsulate everything they are. Hence, the generic term "truthers" in this threads title being in quotations. The overwhelming majority of people not believing our government's story, including victim's families and NYC fireman and law enforcement, respond to those bogus theories with just as much, if not more, incredulity than you and shun thier idiocracy as it doesn't help either side.



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 11:43 PM
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I don't know if this has ever been commented on... And I believe it indirectly supports the truther movement, if you read between the lines.

Does anyone find it strange that you cannot take more than 3 ounces of liquid past security for fear that their might be something flammable or explosive in it. Yet, once you get beyond the security perimeter... You can buy a bottle of Absolut Vodka at the duty free.



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave


All right, then, consider this-

a) Every single time, and I do mean EVERY single time, I get into a discussion with you truthers, in the end you always just cover your ears and yell "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!". T


That is so funny because so far I have gotten the exact same response when I asked for proof AA77 hit the pentagon and just any decent explanation as to where the wings went if it had.

All I have so far is "I CANT HEAR YOU QUESTIONING MY FAIRY TALE OF AN ALL LOVING GOVERNMENT AND JUST BECAUSE THEY DID IT BEFORE, PLANNED IT BEFORE AND DICK CHENEY WAS WILLING TO DO IT AGAIN DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY DID IT ON 9/11 BECAUSE THEY NEVER WOULD."



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 08:12 AM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


How did the "Truthers" get the name "Truther"??

I guess that make you an "Anti-truther"

Isn't it ironic?



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave
...but I have yet to meet ONE truther who ever actually bothered to read the 9/11 commission report.


Yeah, and I have yet to meet any other 9/11 duhbunker who loves to use that phrase.

How's it going Mark (Roberts)? Enjoy your stay at ATS. It won't be pretty.

And while you're at it, you don't go around too much telling people the REAL truth about the 9/11 Commission and how over 50% said themselves that it was a sham, or something similar, now do you. And that includes Lee Hamilton and Thomas Kean, who said themselves they were set up to fail.

And you don't tell them how the Jersey Girls and others saw past the attempted appointment of Henry Kissinger, demanding another lead, do you. And of course you won't tell about about how Bush appointed Philip Zelikow instead, all the better, since he had long been in Bush's and Condi's pocket, serving on the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board and in many other "close capacities"??? Yeah, a real independent investigation that was. And tell them about the "minders" too. Maybe people will like that!

No Mark(?), leave all the dirt out and keep talking about your 9/11 Omission. What you try to present as clean is dirtier than the mess left at Ground Zero.

Edit: And oh, I forgot- if that is Mark Roberts (which I strongly suspect), we have the self-professed "most knowledgeable man in the world regarding 9/11" right here on our very own forums! How delightful!

[edit on Fri Sep 18th 2009 by TrueAmerican]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
...but I have yet to meet ONE truther who ever actually bothered to read the 9/11 commission report.


and keep talking about your 9/11 Omission.

[edit on Fri Sep 18th 2009 by TrueAmerican]
Good one. I'd say it accomplished less than the damn Warren Omission, if that's possible.

This thread's gotten way off base (like most 9/11 ones do), hope it's initial point got across.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by Seventh
Also the above statement is both hypocritical and really shows up your lack of understanding of what a high percentage of truthers views are based on...

A). You state we are all fruitcakes and are a sandwich short of a picnic, then you go on to state that it was truthers themselves who demeaned his thread.


I have never, in my entire life, nor in any discussion forum I've ever been in, ever said that you were all fruitcakes. I have never concealed my true opinion- the majority of the rank and file of the conspiracy people are otherwise intelligent and articulate people who have been suckered by the rubbush these damned fool conspiracy web sites are putting out. These conspiracy sites have a deliberate agenda to instigate false public unrest for their own gain, so they have a vested interest in manipulating the information they present and NOT giving you both sides of the story. You certainly aren't stupid, you're simply being suckered by a lot of internet nonsense and yellow journalism.

You all seem to think that just becuase it's on a web site somewhere and the web site tells you it's "secret information" that it just has to be true. You take a look at a quite professional looking and well laid out web site and you apparently imagine there's an impressive looking office building on the other end of that web site filled with lawyers, scholars, and investigative reporters, without knowing that it's really just a bunch of college kids creating internet videos in their dorm room.

My point is this- if you conspiracy theorists were to ever actually hold up the rubbish coming out of these conspiracy web sites with the exact same stringent level of critical analysis that you do the generally accepted account, you wouldn't be conspiracy theorists, for very long.




B). One thread out of the thousands created here inclines with your beliefs, whilst on the other hand truthers as far as reality goes are on the same side as you guys, now there`s some food for thought.


There is no such thing as "as far as reality goes" where these conspiracy theories are concerned becuase reality is defined by how far they care to go in pushing out their theories. Most of these no planers do little more than rant on these discussion boards, but people like Dr. Judy Woods actually went through the trouble of suing NIST in court on the grounds that the towers were destroyed by energy weapons from outer space. Does this mean Dr. Woods's claims of energy weapons from outer space are reality?




1). There is a bastid great gaping hole caused by a plane and such etc, how can you compress air in this environment?.


Easy. You acknowledge yourself that the collapse was so rapid it approached free fall speeds. The air had therefore compressed faster than the holes had allowed the air to escape.


2). How can the by product caused by floors pancaking onto each other, be produced before the floors collapse?.


The towers had a central open shaft where all the support columns were, which ran down the entire core of the building, so air being compressed at the top can and would be pushed out from a floor closer to the bottom via the central shaft. It's the same reason why flames from burning jet fuel comign from the ninety somethingth floor was able to be seen down at the lobby, as witnesses reported in the Naudet brother's film.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by rygi23
GoodOlDave...again, just like the obtuse theories you relayed in your first post, the "no planes" and "satan worshipers/knights templar" stuff is hideous to the vast majority of people who have rational questions. It's rather impolite to categorize people in any way, including as "you truthers".


All right fair enough. Let me ask you a question, however.

I'll agree that the conspiracy theorists come on all shapes, forms, and beliefs, and that it is unfair to pigeon hole them, but after talkign to many many MANY conspiracy theorists throughout the years, I have discovered that up until now, to a man/woman, they always subscribe to a bunch of *other* conspiracies I.E. the JFK assassination, the moon landing was faked, a secret organization of Jews/Masons/whatever scheming to take over the world, UFOs being stored at Area 51, etc. They all admittedly can and do believe in different conspiracies but the point is that they've subscribed to other conspiracies before 9/11 happened. The obvious concern therefore is that you're not really seeing evidence of any conspiracy. The concern is that you have a pre-existing anti-establishment outlook so you're naturally going to percieve conspiracies within the 9/11 attack where no conspiracies actually exist. When all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail to you.

Here's is your solid gold chance to prove I am wrong and I'm making unfounded presumptions about your movement. My question is, are these 9/11 conspiracies the only conspiracy theory YOU subscribe to?



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