Personally, I think our schools are only looking to graduate those most willing to jump through hoops, and educating them is only secondary.

For one thing, school should be self paced. Those students who can learn faster should be able to go through school more quickly.

The requirements for graduating college should be like the requirements for graduating high school. Students should have to pass standardized tests. All the course material should be available online, and those who are able to study on line and pass the tests should be able to obtain a degree at a relatively low cost.

What would happen is far more students would be getting degrees, and probably students who learned more, and are more independent and creative, or in other words, a higher quality of graduates.

Universities would lose large amounts of revenue, and that is what it is about more than anything. Why else would four year colleges make it so much more difficult to transfer credits from community colleges.

I think the students most likely to graduate college are the ones who are smart enough to learn what's taught, but not smart enough to question the accuracy of the facts, and agenda behind the curriculum.

Just bright enough, but not too smart.

Funny I read a report that 20% off the gifted drop high school.

I wonder why..

From my perspective, I see a majority of people who graduate from the state school I am employed by to be from one of three main categories. There are those from affluent backgrounds, those who have experienced "the real world," however temporarily---and subsequently decided they want an 'out,' and those who were considered "outcasts" in high school, which, as a result, often caused them to have done poorly during their high school careers.

Those from affluent backgrounds do not have to work after school jobs or really worry about money matters---something that helps remove a great deal of aggravation from student life. Additionally, they do not require student loans and also do not have to worry about academic competition in order to be granted scholarships. As one might imagine, that leads to a relaxed level of stress versus other students. These students typically make a C to a B from class to class with the occasional over-achiever in the bunch making mostly A's. They know that a Bachelor's Degree of Science is a B.S. no matter what the final GPA tallys up to. And, as long as they have someone in life to vouch for them, gaining admittance to professional schools is not exactly difficult for them. These are the ones whose families know people.

Then there are those who have experienced the so-called 'rat-race.' Because they went to work and found that work to be extremely dull, difficult, extraordinarily laborious, or what-have-you, they have gained a certain amount of perspective on life. Typically in their mid-twenties to late-thirties, they come roaring into college seeking a particular academic achievement. They become teachers, nurses, CPAs, chemists, business leaders, mathematicians, and IT Professionals and typically do so in record time. Due to their circumstances, they typically require a lot of financial aid and thus are highly competitive and go for as many scholarships as possible. Many are forced to obtain federal Stafford loans of both unsubsidized and subsidized varieties while still maintaining an after-school job. Those who can handle the pressure are nearly 4.0 GPA students and rarely disappoint.

Those who were considered "outcasts," or who otherwise did not do well during high school end up being the possessor of extremely high intellect and amazing creativity. Something about these people and the public school system did not cooperate very well and they were deemed to be of poor scholastic ability illegitimately. They decide to take a chance on college anyway, and find out that they are surprisingly right at home. They do well, often keeping above 3.0 GPA and even earn some scholarships.

Those who do not do well are typically adult part-time students who are content but not quite satisfied with their current situations, military personnel, and those millions of Juniors, Seniors, and so-called '5th year Seniors' who are still sailing under the "Undecided" banner. They typically have better things to be doing throughout the school year, and end up partying most of their college careers, slowly progressing towards a certificate of attendance.

From what I know of the public educational system in the United States, it is more about brainwashing the populace into being cooperative sheeple who will do the bidding of their corporate overlords with minimal questioning, ever increasing 'cost of living,' and perpetually decreasing salary. Do not forget the tax increases and degradation of work incentives.

All of you are wrong. And all of you are onto something at the same time.

I would say it all depends on the person. Stalphos has it pretty accurate from what I have experienced throughout high school and college life. (Senior at a 4 year univ working for a Bachelors right now)

I wasn't the best in high school, actually I nearly didn't graduate. Being near the bottom of my class did not mean I was by any means dumb or not intelligent. Many people were afraid and just dumbfounded as to why I was not making great grades or doing something better with my life. At that point I did not care enough about the 'real world' to be trying to achieve anything. I merely did the minimum that was required of me to do.

I could go on about why that was the case, but to keep it short, i simply moved around a lot and never really had that many real friends because by the time I made some, we'd move again.

I became best friends with technology, as I could bring it around with me everytime we moved.

Instead of homework i'd read programming books and teach myself how to write programs, api, winsock, from around the 8th grade.

Seeing as how my grades were already so poor, I skipped the SATs, decided I probably would not go to college, because, why would I want to continue this suffering by choice?

Eventually I ended up with a CCNA and working in IT. It was terrible. I mean I love technology but making a hobby into a career was not for me.

Worked - Saved - Quit IT - Started Community College, took classes that interested me -> A.S. in Business.

Ok great! Big deal. Worked another year. Applied to a few universities and got accepted to all of them (CC was a joke, doing just as little as I did in high school and I managed a 3.65) THe only reason I did better was because the environment was more relaxed. If you came in late, who cares? You're paying for it.
If you missed a class, your fault, not the teachers responsibility to force you to make up work.

So, 'almost' no homework and having mostly exams/tests. I passed with flying colors.

Now when I transferred my credits to a 4 year, they didn't accept a good chunk of my credits, I believe only about 43 out of 65 counted. Dropping me down into a mid-sophmore instead of entering as a junior.

I'll say though that the quality and amount of information you learn at a higher level university is BY FAR superior than at any community college classes I attended. It does have its pitfalls here and there though.

Going to a community college COULD have saved me thousands if I played my cards right and only did classes that could fully transfer over.

Here's the story for other people from my H.S.

One boy, I'll call Ken, came from a rich family who has had many generations in that town, so they were well established and owned a business. Basically they were rich, the 'buy my daughter a new car for her 16th' rich. This guy went to a relatively good college (private), graduated, and got hooked up via family connections to a decent job. He still lives there and basically saves all his money.

The poor kids basically had to work, so they had no time for school. They didn't see school as a way to get ahead, as working is where the real money was. A common mistake I have seen throughout my life.

Why waste thousands on stuff I hate when I can make money now?

The rest of the kids went to college, got their degree and now are living the common scenario of, get a degree, get a job, work, get into more debt (house/car) and continue the cycle by having kids.


Now after working and researching topics on my own, instead of being spoon fed by the system, I do notice how a lot of the stuff we learn is just regurgitating material, even if it is slightly on the wrong side. I just notice that such and such theory obviously does not work in life, but I let it slide and just make a mental note about it, rather than fighting the professors and pro-longing a lecture (although sometimes I do it for a fun debate if I'm reallly bored ) Most others though take is as the truth and nothing but the truth.

Most of the kids who are in college right now vaguely have an idea of what they would like to be doing, the ones that did know, and graduated, are not doing what they thought they would be. Maybe eventually down the road they will with a bit of luck..

Longest post EVER, but those are my views on the subject.

Thanks, good posts all.

I found this article to be a classic example of what we are getting from mainstream media.

The critical points are ignored, the problem is glossed over, and the desired point is hammered home, "do what you are told, or else".

It is really a brutal message dressed up as advise. Stick to the program people, or else.

Recently been taking courses at the local community college, no 4 year degrees desired. The text books are horribly over priced, and badly written. More and more of the courses are being pushed to be taken online. Far more school work is being required, but the goal doesn't appear to be to educate people, but to just get them to jump through hoops. Then of course there is the way these modern tests are being designed, with the best possible answer, where many of the questions are very ambiguous, and the choice of which answer is correct is really a matter of guessing.

What I think I have seen is wide spread cheating, and can't blame the students in such a system.

Personally, I question the value of a four year degree. Get an AS, and then get certified in the desired field, and you are probably more able to get a good paying job.

What I am also observing these days is that more and more degreed engineers seem to be clueless. They can't figure out the most basic rules of their field, don't know the basic formulas, or how to use them. You have someone who is supposed to be an electric engineer, and yet can't convert horsepower into a current value using standard 480 volts. The values are easy to calculate in your head, and this guy is reaching for a calculator.

The best schools I ever went to were in the military. They taught you what you needed to know, and put the theories to practical use so that you could concentrate on the important stuff.

Most colleges have the students going over and over complex, intricate exercises that the students will most likely never need to perform in their professional careers, while ignoring doing what they should be concentrating on, which is helping a student get a far better grasp of the fundamentals.

It isn't about teaching the students, it is more about torturing them by making them jump through countless hoops that are not doing a thing to improve their understanding of the subject.

Originally posted by poet1b


It isn't about teaching the students, it is more about torturing them by making them jump through countless hoops that are not doing a thing to improve their understanding of the subject.

I disagree and agree.

If you can jump through all the hoops, while singing a song and solving a complex math formula, all while coming out with a good grade. Then to the employer you are able to do more tasks and handle the stress. Some schools have good names for themselves because of this. My friend doesn't go to my school but is in a lower tier school and I can't believe how little they do compared to me. Although when I was looking at yale courses, the requirements scared me. I don't think I would have the time to take more than 3 classes total at yale and be able to have more of a life than eat sleep and read.

The reason the exams are designed to have the best possible answer is so that it shows the student learned exactly what the information presented rather than a general idea. I know for pharmacy majors and medical majors there is a very high bar to pass exams and most people don't make it. The accounting program here is 11th in the country, but the damn exams I took were ridiculous! Luckily I enjoy accounting so I came out with a B+ and C+. (Then stopped as its not my major) Many of the kids were clueless.

You had questions where you needed to calculate the price of a bond and other variables that would come out to an answer around 2 million and some change, the answers on the exam were exact to the penny. If you were off by a few hundred dollars (and youre 100% certain youre right) then you mark none of the above (that really peeved me, 10 minutes figuring out where i went wrong to realize, no, i'm right)

But yeah, the better you do on these types of exams the more likely you are to finish your major in the desired field of study.


On the other hand I am agreeing with you. At least in high school and some community college classes it was just plain BS. Even in the lower level university classes the lecture had 300 people and there wasn't really personalized learning. Either you got it and followed along, or you didn't and had to go to the tutor center for extra help, or see the professors and TA's during office hours. At least the resources are there for people who are struggling.

Cheers

Oh yeah that accounting exam was so ridiculous I decided to take a picture of it afterwards

All the answers are correct.




Edit:
Ok so it wasn't in the 2 millions, but at the time it sure seemed like it haha.

(might have to right click to view image as its too big to fit in the post)

[edit on 16-9-2009 by LOLZebra]