Thoth/Hermes - The First Atlantean?

Originally posted by serbsta

Originally posted by Byrd

-Origins of the theory of Atlantean/Egyptians link? The Land of Khem is Egypt. It is recorded interestingly enough that Thoth was the builder of the pyramids.

Uhm... by whom? Certainly not the Egyptians, who told Herodotus that they were built by Khufu.

Excuse my ignorance then, but i could have sworn i've read that Thoth was regarded as the architect/builder of the Pyramids of Giza.

Some modern writers may insist that this is true, but the ancient Egyptians would have been astonished to hear you make this claim. Their written and oral tradition say that Khufu made the Great Pyramid (reflected in the inscriptions in the temples and so forth around the complex... which is located across the river from Cairo and in the middle of a huge necropolis with many other buildings). There's some graffiti on some of the interior blocks that gives the name of one of the work teams and has an inscription of Khufu's name.

His mortuary temple (where he was worshiped as a god) stands in front of the pyramid, as do the pyramids of three of his queens. A map is here: www.touregypt.net...

Its name is "Khufu on the Horizon" www.hanyra.com...

For the Majesty of King Khufu, justified, spent much time in searching for himself these secret chambers of the sanctuary of Thoth in order to make their likeness for his horizon [or tomb].

westcar papyrus

[edit on 15-9-2009 by Parta]

great find, i love reading and finding out new information about hermes, as he is my favorite greek god. if he was the first atlantean and atlantis is in greece or somewhere around the mediterranean, i think they need to do some more in depth research on the land and sea.
S&F

Originally posted by Parta
For the Majesty of King Khufu, justified, spent much time in searching for himself these secret chambers of the sanctuary of Thoth in order to make their likeness for his horizon [or tomb].

westcar papyrus

Exactly, though as the papyrus said, he never finds them and his purpose was to build an exact one for the "cult temple" (as they're called) outside his pyramid. I had forgotten that Westcar also associates Khufu with the pyramid.

(for those of you not familiar with the language, "justified" means that someone is writing about someone who is dead. Westcar was written some 1,000 years after Khufu died.

reply to post by Byrd


the papyrus doesn't actually say he didn't find them as the part when chronologically he would have arrived in sakhbu [after the birth] is lost. up to that point it states he knows how to get there and the magician would make enough water in the channel for him to sail.

the sakhbu in question is that place which khufu et al would recreate in the giza complex thus making it the second sakhbu.

sakhbu [saXbw]. place of sakh. sakh is lord sakh [sax or sagg] from the upper sea.

so in short... it seems that khufu sailed somewhere, saw some stuff, came back and recreated it [with the help of his son and grandson who were now ra-ites rather than khnum-ists as they had been before the trip to sakhbu]. his dynasty ended with the three kids from sakhbu taking over.

OK, here is a point the OP brings up that I'm still confused about: the relationship (if any) between the Emerald Tablet of Hermes and the Emerald Tablets of Thoth .


The former is singular ("Tablet" not "Tablets") and its very short. It also has true historical veracity behind it going back at least 1,000 years, when it was translated into Latin. It is probably at least 1,000 years older than that; the product of the actual Hermetic Mystery School of late anatiquity. This seems a lot more "legitimate" in terms of what it clames to be.

The Tablets (plural) of Thoth, while very interesting, sadly seem to lack this kind of historical gravitas...the oldest date I see connected with them is 1925. This leads me to believe they are the fictional rantings of a 20th century carnival barker. They are well-written and "I wanna believe" but its hard to swallow.

Or am I wrong? Is there a link between the two and a reality behind the second?

[edit on 9/16/09 by silent thunder]

I read this argument once and wrote it down. I would be interested in an expert answering some of the points made as i thought they made a reasonable explanation as to why it might not have been khufu who built the pyramid

1.11) The 'Inventory Stella' - Found at Giza by Auguste Mariette in the 1850's, in the ruins of the Temple of Isis. It states reasonably clearly that Khufu restored the Sphinx (10). It reads as follows:

'Long live the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Khufu, given life

He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, by the side of the hollow of Hwran (The Sphinx)

and he built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess and he built a pyramid for the King's daughter Henutsen beside this temple.

The place of Hwran Horemakhet is on the South side of the House of Isis, Mistress of the pyramid

He restored the statue, all covered in painting of the guardian of the atmosphere, who guides the winds with his gaze.

He replaced the back part of the Nemes head-dress, which was missing with gilded stone

The figure of this god, cut in stone, is solid and will last to eternity, keeping its face looking always to the East'

This text strongly implies that the Sphinx (and a temple to Isis), were extant before Khufu...


The French Egyptologist and Director General of Excavations and Antiquities for the Egyptian government, Gaston Maspero, who surveyed the Sphinx in the 1920s asserted that:

'The Sphinx stela shows, in line thirteen, the cartouche of Khephren. I believe that to indicate an excavation carried out by that prince, following which, the almost certain proof that the Sphinx was already buried in sand by the time of Khafre and his predecessors'. (8)

'The stela bears all the signs of authenticity. Many scholars have trouble excepting this, however, due to the fact that it upsets the structure of pyramidology. So they have claimed the stela to be a forgery, based on the word of an unscrupulous Englisman named Richard Howard Vyse, who was running out of money and desperate to make a name for himself.'

In 1937 Vyse entered the first of the chambers he discovered. After blasting into the first chamber, he and his companion, a Mr. Hill, took measurements of the empty room and recorded the information in a journal. Yet somehow they missed the so called mason's quarry marks which were painted in red on all the walls except the wall which had been blasted through. It wasn't until they returned later with two other witnesses, that the marks were discovered.Other chambers were blasted through over the next few months, these too possessed the red mason markings..again they were conveniently located on all the walls except those of the east side that had been blasted through. It was as if the builders of the pyramids had known that someone would one day break through these walls and didn't bother to mark them. Not very likely. Another point of interest...only the chamber's discovered by Vyse contained markings. The first room discovered in the prior century was without marks. In fact the entire pyramid is without markings and decorations - very unusual for the Egyptians.When the hieroglyphs in the pyramid were shown to experts, such as the hieroglyphicsexpert at the British Museum, Samuel Birch, suspicions were risen.Birch confirmed that some of the inscriptions were actually cartouches...which could only mean royalty. He also confirmed that the name in the chamber was Khufu. It had seemed that Vyse had discovered the builder of the Great Pyramid.With all the excitement, little attention was paid to the many if's and but's expressed by the museum and Mr. Birch. Right from the beginning, Birch was uneasy with the orthography and script of the many markings. The thing that puzzled him most was the fact that all the markings were made in a script that started to appear only centuries after the time of Khufu. One of the markings was not in use until 2000 years after khufu. He also found it odd that the scripts were done in a cursive manner and all the markings seemed to be done by the same hand.A year later, the leading Egyptologist of the time, Carl Richard Lepsius, was likewise puzzled by the cursive manner of the writings. He then declared that some of the hieroglyphs following the cartouches were totally unknown and he could not understand them.Later on, Birch would discover a second name of a pharaoh contained within the Great Pyramid - Shoufou.The problem here was the lower chambers, which were obviously built first, because you can only build a pyramid from the ground up, contained the name of the pharaoh how lived and reigned after Khufu. To this day, this proves to be a source of embarrassment to Egyptologists.I now bring you to Vyse's biggest blunder made by Vyse - the misspelling of Khufu's name by incorporating it with the god Ra, so the name was spelled Raufu. This would have been nothing less than blasphemy in ancient Egypt.why was such an error made when committing this forgery? At that time, deciphering hieroglyphics was still in its infancy. And it is a well known fact that Vyse used the leading hieroglyphic book of its day, Wilkinson's Materia Hieroglphica. It was later discovered that this book contained spelling errors and it just so happened that the spelling mistakes found within the Great Pyramid were exactly the same as the book.'

Originally posted by silent thunder
OK, here is a point the OP brings up that I'm still confused about: the relationship (if any) between the Emerald Tablet of Hermes and the Emerald Tablets of Thoth .

Is there a link between the two and a reality behind the second?

[edit on 9/16/09 by silent thunder]

Like you write: there is proof of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes (Tabula Smaragdina) and there is NO proof the Emerald Tablets of Thoth have ever truly existed.

It can very well be that Doreal, who was very much into the Occult & Hermetic readings, has heard / read about the Hermes Tablet and thus by going in trance wrote his vision on it giving it a slighty different name. But ... this is speculation only.

I like the texts of the Toth Tablets even when they are written by someome like Doreal. There simply is something about this text even knowing it's not an ancient text.

The text on the Tabula Smaragdina is:

"TABULA SMARAGDINA

“True it is, without falsehood, certain and most true. That which is below is like to that which is above, and that which is above is like to that which is below, to accomplish the miracles of one thing.
And as all things were by the contemplation of one; so all things arose from this one thing by adaptation. Its father is the Sun, its mother is the Moon. The wind carried it in its belly. The Earth is its nurse. It is the father of all the per¬fection of the whole world. Its power is complete, if it be cast on to earth.
You shall separate earth from fire, the subtle from the gross, smoothly, with great sagacity. It rises from earth to heaven, and descends again from heaven to earth, and receives the force from things that are above and from things that are below. hus you will possess the glory of the whole world, and all obscurity will flee from you.
This thing is the strong fortitude of all strength. Because it will overcome each refined, sub¬tle thing and it will penetrate each substance. n this way the world was created. From this marvellous adaptations will arise, of which this is the manner. For this reason I am called Hermes Trismegistus, because I possess three parts of the wisdom of the whole world. That which I had to say about the operation of Sol is completed.”

source (PDF file) : www.spamula.net...

In the book Michael Maier’s Atalanta Fugiens: Sources of an Alchemical Book of Emblems, (my source, also, for the images reproduced here), H.M.E. de Jong traces the origins of many of the book’s mottoes and images, and shows its extensive reliance on previous works, and its place embedded in a tradition that has since faded to near-invisibility. The first emblem in the book, for instance, which is also the first of the images reproduced here, draws on a text that was perceived as one of the oldest and most authoritative alchemical pronouncements, the so-called Tabula Smaragdina (Emerald Tablet), whose authorship was attributed to the mythical Hermes Trismegistus

star n flag because i believe this thread is an important piece of our existences as we know it. Quite simply.

When my mother went below the Sphinx in her NDE she saw many books that had a pictures that looks like the symbols we see as an image of Thoth. She said it was on many books, like a signature in a way. She was told that just because she doesn't see anyone there keeping the writings, that the records are still being kept in our present. She also saw a book that was full of star charts and images. One page showed what seemed to be beings coming to Earth in a craft (craft's) and she felt that this was the story of how certain beings came here (possibly the story of Atlantis....which was also wrote down in Egypt, which is in those books she saw.

Howdy Spannera

Firstly you've copied a large piece of 'stuff' against Vyse without citing that it isn't your own work. It appears to be an embellished version of Sitchin's material made up for one of his books.

Secondly this stuff is all made up, however if you feel that some of it is real please select the three items which you believe have the strongest pre-publication of Sitchin book evidence to support them.

Thirdly even that poster child of fringe Graham Hancock has turned away from Sitchin's made up slander

Hancock's statement

Originally posted by Melyanna Tengwesta
Like you write: there is proof of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes (Tabula Smaragdina) and there is NO proof the Emerald Tablets of Thoth have ever truly existed.

It can very well be that Doreal, who was very much into the Occult & Hermetic readings, has heard / read about the Hermes Tablet and thus by going in trance wrote his vision on it giving it a slighty different name. But ... this is speculation only.

I like the texts of the Toth Tablets even when they are written by someome like Doreal. There simply is something about this text even knowing it's not an ancient text.

Thanks for clearing that up, it actually makes a lot more sense now. So i suppose any investigation into the Tablets of Thoth are pointless as even their existence cannot be proven.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
When my mother went below the Sphinx in her NDE she saw many books that had a pictures that looks like the symbols we see as an image of Thoth.

Your mother went below the Sphinx?

Proof?

reply to post by serbsta


NDE means near death experience, so there likely won't be anything quantifiable as proof.

Check out Drunvalo Melchizedek's books "The Ancient Secret Of The Flower of Life" I&II. He says Thoth appeared to him and taught him many of the mysteries of Egypt. It's fascinating. I've read Doreal's The Emerald Tablets. Interesting but not easy to understand and use. He basically teases the reader to solve his mysteries. Thoth, Hermes and Enoch are supposed to be the same soul. I don't know if they are different incarnations or not. Melchizedek says Thoth designed all the pyramids around the world and gave the Mayans their calender. He also said the largest pyramid in the world is in western Tibet and looks like it was made yesterday. It is covered in snow all year long except for 3 weeks out of the year. He said an American team went in it and found no hieroglyphs except 1 symbol, the flower of life.
Sheldan Nidle says the Arcturians gave the calender to Thoth who then gave it to the Mayans.


[edit on 21-9-2009 by Sargoth]

i came across this and found it interesting to share about Thoth... The True Identity of Thoth

I should make a correction to my earlier post. Drunvalo says Thoth was the architecht for the 3 Giza Pyramids and most of the underground things there, but the rest of the Egyptian pyramids were made by others.

www.hallofthegods.org...
www.atlantisrising.com...

[edit on 4-4-2010 by Sargoth]

reply to post by serbsta


How can one prove such...it was a NDE which she had several OBE.

All I can tell you is what she saw there and wait to see if anything is ever found. Its also possible that this 'place of records' is another dimension, safely guarded by a Earthly object that connects the 2.

I know some of this sounds crazy...but I believe she had a very real experience. I sat beside her for 9 hours while her kidneys were failing her...she had incredible experiences that she would relay to me if I woke her and asked her questions. The questions was the only way to get her to respond, she was so intrigued in her 'experience' she didnt seem to care about anything else...like 'breathing'.

I think I should add....my mother was not a studier of things like Atlantis or people such as Edgar Cayce. After her recovery one of the first things I asked her was 'have you ever heard of Edgar Cayce'....and she said 'Who is that?'. She has heard little about 'Atlantis' but has never should interest in such things. She is a pretty hard core Bible follower....so some of the things in her experience were ironic to her beliefs.

[edit on 5-4-2010 by LeoVirgo]

[edit on 5-4-2010 by LeoVirgo]