'The islamic flag flying over downing street', page 3

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ATS Members have flagged this thread 9 times

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 03:35 PM by Freedom ERP

reply to post by phoenix103

Maybe that is the problem. In many other countries, people, companies and buildings are proud to display the national flag and I would not object to the Government doing something serious for once and pass a law that all public and religious must display the Union flag and the local national flag.

So you now call me an Orwellian idiot because I want to be proud of my country and its flag, and want it displayed publically. Try calling many of the Americans on this site Orwellian idiots because their public building display their national flag and many of them are proud to display their national flag.

And I am a fascist because I want buildings to display the Union flag and the local national flag. So being proud of your country and wanting the symbol (the Union Flag) to be displayed and maybe worn is fascist?

And how did those millions of British people who you claim to represent tell you they were ashamed of what I said. Guess what. I can make unsubstantiated claims that millions of English people want our flag to fly on public buildings

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 04:15 PM by phoenix103

Originally posted by Freedom ERP
reply to post by phoenix103

Maybe that is the problem. In many other countries, people, companies and buildings are proud to display the national flag and I would not object to the Government doing something serious for once and pass a law that all public and religious must display the Union flag and the local national flag.

So you now call me an Orwellian idiot because I want to be proud of my country and its flag, and want it displayed publically. Try calling many of the Americans on this site Orwellian idiots because their public building display their national flag and many of them are proud to display their national flag.

And I am a fascist because I want buildings to display the Union flag and the local national flag. So being proud of your country and wanting the symbol (the Union Flag) to be displayed and maybe worn is fascist?

And how did those millions of British people who you claim to represent tell you they were ashamed of what I said. Guess what. I can make unsubstantiated claims that millions of English people want our flag to fly on public buildings

You can't pass such a law in a free society. Its as simple as that. Religious buildings are not owned by the state so it has absolutely no right whatsoever to insist people fly it.

You cannot mandate patriotism or loyalty and trying to enforce it by legislation will simply put peoples backs up and it is not the way Britain acts.

No, I call you an Orwellian idiot as you seem to think that you can dictate to others that they should display it to make you happy.

The fact that a flag is not flown does not tell you anything about the beliefs of the person or organisation. So, conversely, forcing people to fly it will do no such thing to counter your concerns.

They are clearly not unsubstantiated claims otherwise millions of people would be flying it, would they not? As this is a free country its easy to deduce that out of choice they do not want to fly it. That doesn't mean they aren't nationalists but that is their business, not yours or that of the state!

Your lack of understanding of the issue coupled with your attempt to divert the argument to what other free people chose to do in another country informs that you are not aware of the fundamental principles of the British state, society, history and culture.

No, selecting one group in society and telling them how they should think and act is by definition fascist. If you support that then you can rightly be attributed as having a fascist outlook.

It has nothing to do with the flag one way or another, its about outlook.

This is all fairly basic stuff so please do not tell me again how its about the flag when it is simple underlying principles you aren't aware of or haven't quite grasped as yet.

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 04:26 PM by phoenix103

Originally posted by TSOM87
We need to start a new National Party! This is becoming crazy, the UK was once a great country with proud Traditions. We need a National party that relly dose stand for its country people!

Lets get this crazy Immigration sorted out KNOW!

Tsom87

Have you considered National Socialism? Seems some have...

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 04:27 PM by phoenix103

Originally posted by rogue21
reply to post by TSOM87

I'm not sure another political party is what we need,
I think we just need to organize ourselves better so that we can put more pressure on who ever is in government regardless.

If nothing else Islam is doing an amazing job of uniting everyone across all religions, race, and social background in mutual fear of what they represent.

Is that so? I don't fear them. I fear organisations setup on the basis of hate who wish to spread division but i do not fear someone for having a belief no matter what that belief is.

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 04:29 PM by phoenix103

Originally posted by TSOM87

Originally posted by Karilla
We are a nation of immigrants, always have been. Saxon, Norman, Viking, Breton, German (The Royals), all have come and been absorbed, even those that came with invasion in mind.

British people have had the same concerns about immigration many times, think of the 60's and the days of the Empire Windrush, but now all those people are as British as the rest of us.

I understand your concerns, but all that has to be done is to stick to our own rule of law, treating anone who comes here fairly while not pandering to their cultural or social whims and sticking to our own values. We should be convincing people to integrate by setting an example, not forcing them to or deriding them for failing to.

[edit on 12-9-2009 by Karilla]

I know the history, i know Immigration has happened though the ages. In the last 15 years Immigration in the country has been out of control. Am not saying Immigration should be stopped full stop. Its should be cut and controlled more. People come here and expect us to change for them. It should be the other way around. If they want to stay in the country they wish to immigrate to, they have to respect and adopt to the law's of the that country. Not bring there Law and demand it be used in the country they have came to.

Thats why we need a strong New National Party, a party that stands for the Country, its Law's, its People, its Traditions. IMO!

Tsom87

[edit on 12-9-2009 by TSOM87]

[edit on 12-9-2009 by TSOM87]

Who has asked you to change? When and in what regard?

Is someone who is born and bred her to immigrant parents also subject to this rhetoric?

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 04:36 PM by Taikonaut

anti nazi league, unite against fascism, etc only have one agenda and that is to be AGAINST any particular political philosphy that they dont like. Put them on the spot and ask what they are FOR (with the exception of being against anything) and they just lip-flabber and lose any credibility

They are as much fascist in their rhetoric, actions, and philosophy as those who they state they oppose

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 04:46 PM by mr-lizard

Originally posted by phoenix103

What Orwellian idiot thinks they can impose a demand on one section of the community to tag themselves purely to appease (and it would be unsuccessful) the tiny minded EDL thugs?

You people have no idea what being British is about. I and millions of others are thoroughly ashamed of you.

Actually i was being sarcastic and ironic.

Get off your high horse and smile a little. Or is it wrong to laugh about things these days?

Sorry for upsetting your PC lifestyle. I'm sorry that you are ashamed to be British, may i suggest moving to Afghanistan - i've heard it's nice there.

[edit on 13-9-2009 by mr-lizard]

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 05:05 PM by phoenix103

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by phoenix103

What Orwellian idiot thinks they can impose a demand on one section of the community to tag themselves purely to appease (and it would be unsuccessful) the tiny minded EDL thugs?

You people have no idea what being British is about. I and millions of others are thoroughly ashamed of you.

Actually i was being sarcastic and ironic.

Get off your high horse and smile a little. Or is it wrong to laugh about things these days?

Sorry for upsetting your PC lifestyle. I'm sorry that you are ashamed to be British, may i suggest moving to Afghanistan - i've heard it's nice there.

[edit on 13-9-2009 by mr-lizard]

No, no harm in having a laugh and i'll be honest, I clearly didn't pick up on the humour in your post!

That said, its a pretty concerning to see a rise in the far right at a time of economic and political uncertainty. I do feel some concern it is the start of something nasty and history has shown us that this never works out well for anyone.

My life isn't PC! I appreciate the values of our nation and believe i'm expressing them fairly clearly! We are all free and individuals with a right to believe as we wish. It is only when the law is broken the state has any right to interfere.

And you cannot infer from what I have said that i hate this country. Do not make the mistake of using those kind of arguments, they fall distinctly flat!

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 05:30 PM by Freedom ERP

reply to post by phoenix103

You can't pass such a law in a free society. Its as simple as that. Religious buildings are not owned by the state so it has absolutely no right whatsoever to insist people fly it.

Why not? Our Government pass laws and do things they have no right to do. They change our lives every day yet we can not get them to pass a law to this effect so what is the difference between passing this and forcing us to be part of the EU. The Monarch is head of the Church of England so they are owned by the State as the Monarch is head of State.

You cannot mandate patriotism or loyalty and trying to enforce it by legislation will simply put peoples backs up and it is not the way Britain acts.

It can be promoted above other ideals and if we made people more aware of what it means to be a citizen! And maybe it is time for a change and that we start to say to people who want to live here, we expect certain things but I guess that will be seen as unacceptable by the trendy left who claim to represent us.

No, I call you an Orwellian idiot as you seem to think that you can dictate to others that they should display it to make you happy.

And the Government dictate to me every day. Are they all Orwellian idiots? If you want to live in my country, why not show how luckly you are they you have been given the opportunity to live here and fly our flag?

The fact that a flag is not flown does not tell you anything about the beliefs of the person or organisation. So, conversely, forcing people to fly it will do no such thing to counter your concerns.

Not flying the flag tells all about a person or organisation. It shows a lack of respect or pride in my country and the country that members of my family died for and continue to serve. It shows a lack of understanding of what it means to live in this country.

They are clearly not unsubstantiated claims otherwise millions of people would be flying it, would they not? As this is a free country its easy to deduce that out of choice they do not want to fly it. That doesn't mean they aren't nationalists but that is their business, not yours or that of the state!

Of course it is unsubstantiated. You assume that people who do not fly the Union flag must be ashamed of what I believe and lack of doing something does not mean they agree with you. And it is nothing to do with free choice that people do not fly the Union flag, it's the general ignorant of what our flag means and stands off. Again, it is a lack of pride in this country.

Your lack of understanding of the issue coupled with your attempt to divert the argument to what other free people chose to do in another country informs that you are not aware of the fundamental principles of the British state, society, history and culture.

What lack of understanding? What other country are you talking about? All my comments have been based on this country. And you are an expert in the British State, society, history and culture?

No, selecting one group in society and telling them how they should think and act is by definition fascist. If you support that then you can rightly be attributed as having a fascist outlook.

So this Labour Government does this to me everyday. One group of society telling me what to do. So I can call this Government fascist because I am not a Labour supporter?

It has nothing to do with the flag one way or another, its about outlook.

This is all fairly basic stuff so please do not tell me again how its about the flag when it is simple underlying principles you aren't aware of or haven't quite grasped as yet.

This has everything to do with the flag and pride and honour in this country and it is such a shame that you resort to insulting members that they have failed to understand what you see as basic underlying principles that do not agree with your point of view.

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 05:37 PM by Freedom ERP

reply to post by phoenix103

So I am being called a Nazi because I am proud of my country and want to protect my culture from being overrun and think that immigrants to this country should understand my culture.

This the the typically reply I see from those who will not address the growing issue of too little integration from immigrants and too much immigration.

reply posted on 14-9-2009 @ 02:43 AM by TSOM87

Originally posted by phoenix103

Originally posted by TSOM87
We need to start a new National Party! This is becoming crazy, the UK was once a great country with proud Traditions. We need a National party that relly dose stand for its country people!

Lets get this crazy Immigration sorted out KNOW!

Tsom87

Have you considered National Socialism? Seems some have...

Yeah a National party sounds ideal to me! Socialism...nope!

2nd line

Tsom87

reply posted on 14-9-2009 @ 02:49 AM by TSOM87

Originally posted by phoenix103

Originally posted by TSOM87

Originally posted by Karilla
We are a nation of immigrants, always have been. Saxon, Norman, Viking, Breton, German (The Royals), all have come and been absorbed, even those that came with invasion in mind.

British people have had the same concerns about immigration many times, think of the 60's and the days of the Empire Windrush, but now all those people are as British as the rest of us.

I understand your concerns, but all that has to be done is to stick to our own rule of law, treating anone who comes here fairly while not pandering to their cultural or social whims and sticking to our own values. We should be convincing people to integrate by setting an example, not forcing them to or deriding them for failing to.

[edit on 12-9-2009 by Karilla]

I know the history, i know Immigration has happened though the ages. In the last 15 years Immigration in the country has been out of control. Am not saying Immigration should be stopped full stop. Its should be cut and controlled more. People come here and expect us to change for them. It should be the other way around. If they want to stay in the country they wish to immigrate to, they have to respect and adopt to the law's of the that country. Not bring there Law and demand it be used in the country they have came to.

Thats why we need a strong New National Party, a party that stands for the Country, its Law's, its People, its Traditions. IMO!

Tsom87

[edit on 12-9-2009 by TSOM87]

[edit on 12-9-2009 by TSOM87]

Who has asked you to change? When and in what regard?

Is someone who is born and bred her to immigrant parents also subject to this rhetoric?

NoBody has asked me me to change, there askin my country to adopt Sharia law, i would call that change.

If people come here legally and are happy to adopt to the UK and work, theres no problem is there. IMO Immigration should be slowed down, not cut, just slowed down.

Tsom87

reply posted on 14-9-2009 @ 06:27 AM by Taikonaut

Originally posted by TSOM87
There askin my country to adopt Sharia law, i would call that change.

This point of Sharia Law needs clearing up.

If you are charged with crimes against the person, property, or state you are tried under Crown Law...the law of the land, and will always remain to be so

however...

Civil Law, which governs contractual disputes such as business deals, marriages, etc...anything where one person or group enters into an agreement with another. This will be stated at the outset of the contract terms to be resolved under any set of laws you wish...whether English, Scottish, Norwegian, Maritime, or Sharia law, and on the condition that is is a fair and above-board contract that all parties agree to be bound by under terms

Shariai will never replace Crown law, period.

and whats all this 'islamic flag' nonsense anyhow...last I heard there wasn't any Islamic Union, nor with a distictive flag like the EU blue banner with circle of stars.

reply posted on 14-9-2009 @ 01:46 PM by TSOM87

Originally posted by Taikonaut

Originally posted by TSOM87
There askin my country to adopt Sharia law, i would call that change.

This point of Sharia Law needs clearing up.

If you are charged with crimes against the person, property, or state you are tried under Crown Law...the law of the land, and will always remain to be so

however...

Civil Law, which governs contractual disputes such as business deals, marriages, etc...anything where one person or group enters into an agreement with another. This will be stated at the outset of the contract terms to be resolved under any set of laws you wish...whether English, Scottish, Norwegian, Maritime, or Sharia law, and on the condition that is is a fair and above-board contract that all parties agree to be bound by under terms

Shariai will never replace Crown law, period.

and whats all this 'islamic flag' nonsense anyhow...last I heard there wasn't any Islamic Union, nor with a distictive flag like the EU blue banner with circle of stars.

Well lets put it this way, i wouldn't like to see anybody in any country get stoned to death. Am sure you wouldn't as well. From what i have read its part of Sharia Law. Theres also other ways they go about dealing with people, also Woman and Gays aint treated well.

Tsom87

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 03:07 AM by Cythraul

reply to post by Taikonaut

Yes but that point is - why exactly do some Muslims feel that common British law isn's sufficient? Why do they feel the need to import a foreign set of rules? Same would go for anyone using Danish, Dutch or any other laws. Why would someone who is supposedly British seek to go beyond British law, no matter how lawful it is to do so?

And there are many, many Muslims in Britain who DO want Shariah Law here. I don't think it's as easy to dismisss as: "it'll never happen here". For a start, this implies that if a section of the Muslim community did start pushing for a full concurrent legal system, someone would put a stop to it. So presumably, there is a line to be crossed even for the apologists of radical Islam.

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 03:29 AM by woodwardjnr

reply to post by Cythraul

Its not just Muslims, the Jewish commnunity also use their own civil laws when it comes to sorting out civil and arbituary matters. I happen to think this is a good thing. It makes sense.

You are not going to see women and gays stoned in the streets of London, well not the physically sense anyway.

Maybe you should organise a few demos outside a few synagogues in North London to demonstrate against the Jewish community using their own laws.

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 05:53 AM by Cythraul

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
I happen to think this is a good thing. It makes sense.

How so? Nationhood means nothing when a nation's population are divided into separate groups adhering to separate laws, speaking separate languages, working towards separate goals.

If Britain is only a word to describe a piece of land where anyone from anywhere can come and do anything they like then 'Britain' means nothing. It serves only as a purely practical term for describing a geographical location. Britain might as well have no shared history, no ethnic group, no values. Basically, everything that the people of Britain have fought and died for for thousands of years was all for nothing. Yes, they died for freedom, but they died predominantly for the freedom of their descendents, not for the freedom of foreigners to come and take Britain for themselves.

And I agree about Judaism. I'd like the Jewish community to be more integrated too. But Judaism does not produce terrorists, does not seek to Judaify (if that's even a word) Britain, is not breeding at an incredible rate and generally does not impose itself on traditional Britain.

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 07:01 AM by ENGLISH BOB

Why don't we have NO FLAG over Downing street. Stops a load of childish argument. Can anybody explain to me why we have to wave these damn things anyway?
Anyhoo, as for the video, I wouldn't pay it much attention. It's someone's opinion and we have freedom of speech.
Taking sides is not the answer here. This is a fantastic country, and the way we can live and work together is an example to the world.
At my workplace we've had British, Iraqi, Afghani, Iranian, Turkish, East European, West European, Canadian, aethiest, Christian, Muslim, Seikh, male, female, straight, gay etc everybody working together, happy together and NO WAR HAS BROKEN OUT BETWEEN US.

[edit on 15-9-2009 by ENGLISH BOB]

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 07:09 AM by detachedindividual

reply to post by mr-lizard

All I'm going to say is that I am fed up with the EDF/BNP publicity drive going on here.

This is seriously affecting my view of ATS. I don't want to see this place becoming a voice to Nazi ideology, but it is quickly becoming that with thread after thread about the BNP/EDF.

There is nothing going on. You see one video and suddenly that equates to Muslim's taking over our country?

Grow up, FFS!

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 07:29 AM by Cythraul

Originally posted by detachedindividual
This is seriously affecting my view of ATS. I don't want to see this place becoming a voice to Nazi ideology, but it is quickly becoming that with thread after thread about the BNP/EDF.

If you think the BNP, or particularly the EDL, have ANYTHING to do with Nazi ideology, then perhaps ATS really isn't the place for you.

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