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The Tea Party Conspiracy?

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posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 09:59 AM
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Jdub, I knew I had recognized you from somewhere so I looked through your post history to find out where.

Remember this?

I knew I ran into you somewhere else doing this. Seems like you have a habit of throwing out insults (liberal?), twisting quotes, and inserting words into other peoples mouths whenever you don't agree with what they say.

I'll leave you with this quote before you are blocked from my account, because honestly, I don't want to run into you on ATS and try to waste my time debating you when all you are looking for is an argument.

Some of it may not have to do with the thread, but i'll think you will get the picture.




I have no need to debate people who take my words out of context to make it look like I said something else, who exaggerate and fear monger by bringing in a 'stoneage', and who doesn't even know the definition of quote.


Peace out! And keep up with the neo-con talking points, you are SO great at it!



[edit on 9/13/2009 by Uniceft17]




posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by mikerussellus
reply to post by A Fortiori
 

By that reasoning, you must have admired Reagan. He stated that he didn't have to know everything. Just surround himself with people that did.



I have mixed feelings about Reagan because of his association with PACs and lobbyists. In the days of Roosevelt we were not ass to alligators with lobbyists who influence policy. Some, yes, as much as now? Nooooooooo.

We had the head of Harvard Business school last fall saying on Fox that we ought not bail any corporations out and let the ones who did a terrible job crash like they ought to. Did anyone listen? Nope. Why? Lobbyists.

What we have done with corporations is the antithesis of what we claim America stands for. Subsidies prevent bad corporations from failing. Bailouts keep the crooks in business. When it come to what we consider "the lazy" individuals we are adamant about not working to pay for their laziness, but corporate sloppiness we are willing to pay for because we were sold a bill of goods by Reagan's handlers and this "trickle down" economics. We foolishly believe that by keeping them in business they will create jobs.

Well, we bailed 'em out and where are the jobs?

Reagan did the same thing as Roosevelt, the only difference is it was the Department of Defense and we were building weapons systems to target the evil empire instead of roads and dams. Government spending will boost the economy, and trickle down was this bill of sale that was intended to make the lower middle and middle class okay with the fact that they were paying extremely high taxes to some good end.

They are all prevaricators.



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by Uniceft17
 



Jdub, I knew I had recognized you from somewhere so I looked through your post history to find out where.

Remember this?


Tell you what I don't remember; any Tea Party movement in 2007, founded on, among other things, monetary policy and the Federal Reserve.

From your OP:

On December 16th, 2007 the Tea Party movement was in its infant stages, started by Ron Paul supporters based on the principals of smaller governement, anti-taxation, abolishing the IRS and the Federal Reserve, a sweeping change on monetary policy, ending the wars and non-interventionist foreign policy.


Oh, really?

Please show ALL OF US the support for your premise for this thread.

All the Tea Party groups I've corresponded with or become associated with have had a much broader agenda.

Please provide me a link, post, thread, et c., to assist me in my search. I've yet to find it on my own.

What I do remember is your interjection of the OP premise into another thread:
"From Thread: Ohio: 18,000 attend Tea Party Protest"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now, in the hope that you will reciporcate, I will share with you some of the groups and "mission statements" with which I've been associated.

Note: these groups were founded to protest Government intrusions and excess, not those of a private corporation (e.g., the Federal Reserve).

"American Liberty Alliance"


The American Liberty Alliance is a national network of grassroots activists who are fighting to promote and defend the cause of individual liberty, free market principles and limited government. As an independent movement that has evolved from other successful initiatives across the country, ALA is now poised to act as a catalyst for intellectual activism on key social and economic issues, and to act as a true voice for progressive-minded constituents who need and want a closer adherence to classical liberalism and libertarian ideals.


Mission:


The American Liberty Alliance was started to fill a void among liberty minded organizations. Somewhere between large national organizations and local activists, there was a gap. Groups seemed too focused on folding activists into their own efforts and not supporting the causes and efforts of the activists themselves. American Liberty Alliance began with that focus in mind – making the local activist a priority and building opportunities and interaction around them.

ALA offers something that no one else does, and that’s the willingness to put personalities aside, listen to our members, and focus on the issues important to them. We’re going to engage on a very local level. We’re also going to build the infrastructure so that we can respond very quickly to emerging issues and situations.
Our objective is to provide a place of collaboration for Free Market movements.

americanlibertyalliance.com...

Here's another group and mission:

"Tea Party Patriots"

Tea Party Patriots is a nonpartisan, social welfare organization engaged in grassroots lobbying to support our core values of fiscal responsibility, free markets, and limited government.

teaparty.thearenausa.com...
teapartypatriots.org...

One more:

"Tax Day Tea Party.com"

On April 15th, hundreds of thousands of citizens gathered in more than 800 cities to voice their opposition to out of control spending at all levels of government. Organized in all 50 states by Americans from all walks of life, these "tea parties" were a true grassroots protest of irresponsible fiscal policies and intrusive government. TaxDayTeaParty.com was the home of these protests, and will continue to be an online gathering place for a new generation of grassroots activists who are committed to effecting positive change in their communities.


taxdayteaparty.com...

Finally, here's what Michelle Malkin had to say about the movement in February:
"Tea Party U.S.A.: The movement grows"
By Michelle Malkin • February 21, 2009 04:16 AM


We got the anti-stimulus, anti-entitlement protest ball rolling — and now the movement, spurred further by CNBC host Rick Santelli’s call for a “Chicago Tea Party,” is really taking off.

... our registered commenters [include] Liberty Belle Keli Carender, who spearheaded the Seattle anti-pork protest, and HuskerGirl Amanda Grosserode, who organized today’s anti-stimulus demonstration against Democrat Rep. Dennis Moore in Overland Park, KS.

My friend Michael Patrick Leahy and his crew are spearheading simultaneous local tea parties around the country, beginning in Chicago, and including Washington DC, Fayetteville NC, San Diego CA, Omaha Nebraska, and dozens of other locations.

Co-sponsors of the events with TCOT include DONTGO, Smart Girl Politics, Americans for Tax Reform, Heartland Institute, and American Spectator Magazine.

michellemalkin.com...

So, here's support for my understanding of the Tea Party Movement.

Please share yours. Show me the support for your premise for this thread.

Show ALL OF US the support for your premise for this thread.

jw

[edit on 13-9-2009 by jdub297]



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by mental modulator
 



It's funny that most Americans still think that the Federal Reserve is actually a government entity and not a private one controlled by a small group of VERY rich people, something that in and of itself is UN-constitutional.


Funny?

I hear MSM liberals every day refer to the Fed as part of the government. NPR reports constantly do this. Listen to "Morning Edition" for a day or two. It WILL come up.

Intentional confusion? Disinformation?

Who gains from the confusion?

Deny ignorance!

jw



I did not post that, I suggest you edit that...

I damn well know what fed does and the game they play.



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


And Michelle Malkin is exactly why I wouldn't go to a Tea Party because it is her very unkind sort of person that I would want to avoid.

My List of "Conservative" Baddies

Michelle Malkin
Anne Coulter
Sean Hannity
Rush Limbaugh
Bill O'Reilly

My List of "Conservative" Goodies

Ron Paul
Mike Huckabee
Shep "the man" Smith
Tucker Carlson

When people on the "bad" list start supporting anything I immediately began to worry and run far, far away from it. Conversely, when something is supported by Ron, Shep, or Tucker I'm for it.

Mike Huckabee is one of those that I just have a gut feeling on as to "nice". Michael Stipe of REM said the same thing. He just comes off as nice.



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by A Fortiori
 


And that is part of this thread, how?

You can eliminate Malkin's byline, but it doesn't change the facts.

The Tea Party demonstrations have been in response to "big", overspending, government and gov't. overreaching.

The OP claims that the "movement" was in response to the privately-owned Federal Reserve system and its monetary policy.

Show me where it was.

Please support this thread with a link, a citation, a source, other than someone's opinion, about the Tea Party movment originating as a response to the Fed.

That's the premise of this thread. Show me, so I can learn from it.

Please.

Deny ignorance.

jw



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


Okay, you are right. I derailed thinking about Michelle Mouthkin.

They (Ron Paul folks) called their December 16th, 2007 "dump" of cash a "tea party" as it was a vote, in their opinion, against taxes to pay for things they did not want. Since they called it a tea party first, they feel they own the term.

Last fall (2008) some Bostonians annexed the name to start the "Boston Tea Party" which is closer in association with what you are talking about.

The old website (forgive me if someone put this out there already) was www.teaparty07.com



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by A Fortiori
 



They (Ron Paul folks) called their December 16th, 2007 "dump" of cash a "tea party" as it was a vote, in their opinion, against taxes to pay for things they did not want.


Isn't that what I've been saying?

I KNOW what Ron Paul's online FUNDRAISER was about and what it was called.

The OP premised this entire thread on his naked assertion that the "Tea Party" movement was illegitimate because it derailed some "monetary protest."

The truth is the 2007 "Tea Party" was a one-time, Ron Paul, online fundraiser.

No "anti-fed" protests, no movement.

Here's the remaining active links and info:

"Tea Party 2007"
www.thepresidentialcandidates.us...


Ron Paul supporters are hoping to help him obliterate that goal with the "Ron Paul Tea Party" on Sunday, December 16th. The date is symbolic as it is the 234th anniversary of the Boston Tea Party of 1773. The Boston Tea Party was a protest against the heavy taxation of Great Britain on the colonies and was instrumental in sparking the American Revolution.

Just like the $4.3 million "Money Bomb" on November 5th, this fund raising event has been organized entirely by Ron Paul's supporters, not his campaign.

The goal of the organizers of the Ron Paul Tea Party is high. They want to raise an unbelievable $10 million in a single day. If you want to show your support for civil liberties, fair taxation, and a non interventionist foreign policy then take part in what many Ron Paul supporters see as an historic occasion: Donate To The Ron Paul Campaign On December 16th.


Anti-fed? "Monetary policy?" Yeah, Ron Paul's "monetary."

This guy's blog claims to be the "officail website:"
mysite.verizon.net...


A total of 58,407 Americans just like you donated an average of $102
to protest the oppressive and unconstitutional inflation tax -
which has enabled a flawed foreign policy, a costly war
and the sacrificing of our liberties here at home.


There WAS a video resource site using the Boston Tea Party theme and related to the 12/16/07 online fundraiser:

thebostonteaparty2007.blogspot.com...

Still waiting to see the "anti-fed" motivation of any "Tea Party" protests in 2007.

Derailed?

How 'bout "Debunked?"

Deny ignorance!

jw



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 09:32 PM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


Can I ask a question? Why are you so grumpy? Seriously, you were flaming me and for what? Who called "tea party" first?

It wasn't that Ron Paul's folks got a web page and started an internet "tea party" movement, they just were the first to hearken back to that term. Among the supporters in his circle there was a real hark and cry for true Constitutionalism and, yes, at events people would talk about "tea parties" or "taxation without representation". Honestly, I just assumed we were the "first", but if we aren't and you guys want to call the ball, well, take it.

I want no part of any Neocon movement. Therefore, if this is going to turn into an Obama-hate-a-thon and not a return to Constitutionalism-a-thon then I want no part of it.



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 03:59 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297


Tell you what I don't remember; any Tea Party movement in 2007, founded on, among other things, monetary policy and the Federal Reserve.


Lie.

It was founded on those things, but other things as well. Look for sources in the bottom of my thread.



Oh, really?

Please show ALL OF US the support for your premise for this thread.

All the Tea Party groups I've corresponded with or become associated with have had a much broader agenda.

What I do remember is your interjection of the OP premise into another thread:
"From Thread: Ohio: 18,000 attend Tea Party Protest"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now, in the hope that you will reciporcate, I will share with you some of the groups and "mission statements" with which I've been associated.

Note: these groups were founded to protest Government intrusions and excess, not those of a private corporation (e.g., the Federal Reserve).


Ok, The opening of my thread on the description of the Tea Party movement pretty much encapsulates everything you've quoted. Look at the quote below, I think it's pretty broad.



On December 16th, 2007 the Tea Party movement was in its infant stages, started by Ron Paul supporters based on the principals of smaller governement, anti-taxation, abolishing the IRS and the Federal Reserve, a sweeping change on monetary policy, ending the wars and non-interventionist foreign policy.


But if you want sources than I will oblige.

The starting of the movement:

Tea Party '07

You will find a link (ideas and principles) on the Tea Party '07 website that leads to this:

Campaign for Liberty




Our mission is to promote and defend the great American principles of individual liberty, constitutional government, sound money, free markets, and a noninterventionist foreign policy, by means of educational and political activity.





And the central bank's ability to create money out of thin air transfers wealth from the most vulnerable to those with political pull, since it is the latter who receive the new money before the price increases it brings in its wake have yet occurred. For economic and moral reasons, therefore, we join the great twentieth-century economists in opposing the Federal Reserve System, which has reduced the value of the dollar by 95 percent since it began in 1913.


If these new tea party protesters cared anything about the constitution then this would be at the forefront of there movement, but it's not, it's not even on the website of the sponsors. Like you yourself have said.

That's why this is a conspiracy, because the monetary/federal reserve part has been completely removed from the equation, the source of the actual problems we see today!

You can go around saying you want less government, you want less taxes, you want less government intervention, etc. But you can't do that without going through the fed, the fed is responsible for the inflation tax, the fed is responsible for printing the money, devaluing it. So let's see how far you get with protesting the government and letting the fed off scott free.

If the tea party protests were sill about what I listed then maybe we would have actually got something done by now, if we still had the fed in the equation then we wouldn't have these neo-con politicians joining in because they love the fed just like the left does.




The truth is the 2007 "Tea Party" was a one-time, Ron Paul, online fundraiser.

No "anti-fed" protests, no movement.


Lying again? What a surprise!

Funny, it did turn into a movement, there were Tea Pary protests carried out there on after that date. Your a Fox News watcher, Don't you remember them ridiculing and making fun of them back when Bush was in office, now they are all for it.

It did turn into a movement and heres the source.

Whats the difference from the so called 'tea party movement' and the original one? One is for the constituion (abolishing the IRS, the fed), one is not. One is non-partisan, the other one is.



Still waiting to see the "anti-fed" motivation of any "Tea Party" protests in 2007.

Derailed?

How 'bout "Debunked?"


Sorry, but you just debunked yourself. Obviously you didn't follow that link on the website to Campaign for Liberty and maybe you would have found the information you claimed you were so desperately looking for.

[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]

[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]

[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]

[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 04:06 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297

The Tea Party demonstrations have been in response to "big", overspending, government and gov't. overreaching.


That's good and all, but it's not the heart of our issue. The fed is much bigger of an issue than that. But i'm not saying we shouldn't be protesting that too, Because I have to.



The OP claims that the "movement" was in response to the privately-owned Federal Reserve system and its monetary policy.


Quit putting words in my mouth, i've had to call you out on that so many times already. PLEASE TELL ME WHERE I SAID THAT.. I said it was the main part of the movement and the original tea partiers know that because you can't do anything without going through the fed, MONETARY POLICY AFFECTS EVERY POLICY.



Please support this thread with a link, a citation, a source, other than someone's opinion, about the Tea Party movment originating as a response to the Fed.


Show me a link, citation, or source saying this movement originated from the fed. Because no one is stating that claim here but you.

The reason the Fed is at the forefront of this thread is because it has been mysteriously taken out of the protests. Look on the Tea Party Express website, look at there sponsors and tell me where the Fed is mentioned.

If this new movement was about the constitution why aren't the conservatives who orchestrated it talking about the Fed, the IRS, non-interventionist foreign policy. Oh wait I know. Because they aren't conservatives, they are neo-cons trying to get one of there own elected by hijacking a movement that was originally a constitutional movement.



[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]

[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 08:11 AM
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reply to post by Uniceft17
 

You’re kidding, right?

The major sources of your premise organize, endorse and participate in Tea parties!
(Campaign for Liberty didn't even exist in 2007 or 2008!)

Nathan Yao’s ("teaparty07") BLOG for Paul’s one-day (12/16/07) FUNDRAISER is your “movement? How many protests did Yao organize? ZERO.

But, he certainly advertises on behalf of Tea Party
organizers!

(I’ve already quoted from his blog about their “mission,” raising $100 donations in an online fundraiser.)

“Campaign for Liberty?” Ron Paul’s 2009 fundraising website? What are their major activities?

Here’s from the site:


Tea Party and the New York Times

Final days to collect petitions for Mass Action Day!

Join C4L at the 9/12 March in D.C.

Health care is unequivocally not a right

The Road to Health Care Serfdom


And what does C4L think of all this?

Jesse Benton, a Paul campaign spokesman, said he was not surprised by the amount of money raised.

He called the Paul movement "legitimate" and "real," noting that the Campaign for Liberty -- an organization formed after the campaign and of which Paul serves as honorary chairman -- has raised $4 million since its founding in February.

"These are people who want to return to our traditional values of self-reliance and liberty," Benton added.
www.washingtonpost.com...

So, the major source (C4L) of your premise did not exist before 2009 and ACTUALLY ENDORSES, ORGANIZES, AND PARTICIPATES in Tea Parties?

The main focus of C4L is support for the “audit the fed” legislation.

I AM A MEMBER! (are you?)

They haven’t been abandoned, usurped or left behind by the Tea Party movement; WE PARTICIPATE!

As for Tea Parties not being in support of the Constitution, what do you think "States Rights" are?

C4L is also against Obamacare. How is that consistent with your premise?

I've been to rallies in TWO states, and Ron Paul supporters and my fellow Campaign For Liberty members were plentiful.!

How can you argue that they've been abandoned when THEY ARE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of the Tea Parties?

Deny ignorance.

jw

[edit on 14-9-2009 by jdub297]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 09:47 AM
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Nathan Yao’s ("teaparty07") BLOG for Paul’s one-day (12/16/07) FUNDRAISER is your “movement? How many protests did Yao organize? ZERO.


No I didn't say that, I said it was the start of the movement, a spin-off from the Tea Party fundraiser an inspired the movement. Is that so hard for you to understand?



“Campaign for Liberty?” Ron Paul’s website? What are their major activities?

Here’s from the site:


Tea Party and the New York Times

Final days to collect petitions for Mass Action Day!

Join C4L at the 9/12 March in D.C.

Health care is unequivocally not a right

The Road to Health Care Serfdom


So, the major source (C4L) of your premise ACTUALLY ENDORSES, ORGANIZES, AND PARTICIPATES in Tea Parties?


You REALLY don't get the premise of my thread, they haven't endorsed the 9/12 march, they encouraged there members to join in it because it had a common but much narrower message. Which is a mistake because it was used by the media to lump all the protesters into one group! Which is the premise behind my thread, these tea parties get lumped into one with a mainstream message, smaller government. Forget the fed, the IRS and everything else. People are already starting to think Tea Partiers are stupid, look the Tea Party express invited Palin of all people, how do you think that makes Tea Parties in general look?


The main focus of C4L is support for the “audit the fed” legislation.

I AM A MEMBER! (are you?)


Do I have to be? Does it matter?


They haven’t been abandoned, usurped or left behind by the Tea Party movement; WE PARTICIPATE!


I never said the movement was abandoned, the much broader message of the movement was narrowed down when it became mainstream and hijacked.


As for Tea Parties not being in support of the Constitution, what do you think "States Rights" are?


States Rights? That's a good one that will return some power to the states level but still the core issue has been left out of the organizers website and even if states rights were broaden how does that help with the IRS or The Fed, it doesn't. As i've said many of times.



C4L is also against Obamacare. How is that consistent with your premise?


I don't believe I ever brought Obamacare into this thread, so how does that have to do with my 'premise'?


How can you argue that they've been abandoned when THEY ARE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of the Tea Parties?


I never argued that they were abandoned, I said it was hijacked and I stand by that statement. The message of the Tea Party movement has been narrowed down by the Tea Party Express, it used to be much broader, like the one on the C4L website. What's the message of the people who actually organized the 9/12 protests? I haven't seen anything about the constitution besides states rights as you mentioned.

This thread hasn't been debunked. Why?

Because several questions still haven't been answered:

Like why a new Tea Party movement was created by conservative groups that leave out key issues that aren't widely known in the country?

(and yes I know there are protesters within the movement that are out there protesting the fed and the IRS, but on the organizers website I haven't seen any of those issues mentioned)

Why the movement is inviting politicians and speakers that go against the ideals of the movement?

If you can answer those questions and the ones in the OP then I stand corrected and this conspiracy will be debunked.

[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]

[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by Uniceft17
 


A new Tea Party movement was created by conservative groups that leave out key issues that aren't widely known in the country?

You set up a straw man, citing “conservative groups” leaving out “key issues, but you have yet to identify ONE.

Name them.


If you can answer these questions and the ones in the OP then I stand corrected and this conspiracy will be debunked.


Promise?

First C4L is an organizer of and a participant in the “new” Tea Party rallies, including the “Tea Party Express!”

If they’re part of the “new” Tea Party Movement, you cannot honestly say they were “hijacked!"


“Key issues?”

As for the other “conservative organizers?”
OK. Here goes.

Let’s start with Campaign for Liberty and their “key issues:”


Our mission is to promote and defend the great American principles of individual liberty, constitutional government, sound money, free markets, and a noninterventionist foreign policy, by means of educational and political activity.

www.campaignforliberty.com...

Now, let’s compare.
“Libertybelle” was one o the first to call for and organize a “Tea Party” taxpayers’ protest, starting in January, 2009. Libertyelle’s “key issues”?

What if we picked a day to all "come out?"

I believe we should have a "Solution Revolution." We need to create SOLUTIONS based in OUR principles like the free market, fiscal conservatism, individual freedom and liberty, self-responsibility, and the importance of family.

redistributingknowledge.blogspot.com...

The “Tea Party Patriots joined in at once and began to spread the call for nationwide participation. Their “core principles?” “Fiscal responsibility, Limited Government, Free Market.”
www.teapartypatriots.org...

TPP has created a platform based upon several “key issues”. Among them:


Gold and Silver Legal Tender
Repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913
Audit the Federal Reserve!
Stop the money printing press
Implement the Fair Tax
Repeal the 16th Amendment
Flat, staged income tax


contractfromamerica.com...

See any common threads between them?


Why the movement is inviting politicians and speakers that go against the ideals of the movement?


(Another "straw man." Which politicians and speakers? Name some, please.)

First, EVERYONE is invited! That’s the whole idea, isn’t it? Inclusion versus exclusion and isolation.

“Invited speakers and politicians” AGAINST the movement?”

Name one who spoke out against the anti- fed, anti-tax principles.

What did anyone say at these rallies in support of the IRS or the FED?

WHO spoke against the anti-fed movement?
WHO spoke against the anti-tax movement?

(I didn’t think so.)


If you can answer those questions and the ones in the OP then I stand corrected and this conspiracy will be debunked.


So, explain how can a movement that participates in and organizes Tea Party rallies was “hijacked” by the other organizers who share the same values and objective?

Goodbye “conspiracy.”



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by jdub297



Name them.


Haven't I already done this many of times?

The organizers of the 9/12 protests, the Tea Party express left out The Fed, the IRS, monetary policy.


Promise?


Sure do.



First C4L is an organizer of and a participant in the “new” Tea Party rallies, including the “Tea Party Express!”


I'm sure C4L organizes there on rallies i'm sure they participate in other tea party rallies with a common message as i've already stated and acknowledged, why would they organize another movements protests? Your not making since with that statement.


If they’re part of the “new” Tea Party Movement, you cannot honestly say they were “hijacked!"


Haha, your falling for the purpose of the conspiracy hook, line and sinker. That is the purpose of the hijacking, for there to be no noticeable difference between the several tea party organizations, then they can lump them into one group with one common cause. Now tell me, Which movement sticks out more in the media? The Tea Party Express who happens to leave out key issues, who is organized by conservatives, and invites neo-con politicians to speak and has narrowed down the message of the movement to a much narrower goal that leaves out the issues as i've stated to you countless times. TPTB and the media are suceeding in confusing and lumping them all into one group with a much narrower message than the original that leaves out key issues. So the message of the movement has changed from tackling the key issues, to tackling the ones that will only get us so far until our demise. Congrats for falling for it.


“Key issues?”


Yeah, key issues!



See any common threads between them?


Yes I already said that the Tea Party protests had a common thread, smaller government and anti-tax. But the most widely recognizable Tea Party movement is the Tea Party Express, I stated in my OP that we were talking about the Tea Party express. I can see your a little confused.


Another "straw man." Which politicians and speakers? Name some, please.)


Off the top of my head? Texas Governor Rick Perry and the quitter Sarah Palin who is one of the most polarizing person in politics. Hardly Tea Party material.


First, EVERYONE is invited! That’s the whole idea, isn’t it? Inclusion versus exclusion and isolation.


So when a politicians record goes against the key ideals of the movement you INVITE them to speak!? Using your logic why don't you invite Obama and Pelosi to come speak about conservatism. It will be the best, everyone will be united and the country can move forward.



“Invited speakers and politicians” AGAINST the movement?”

Name one who spoke out against the anti- fed, anti-tax principles.


No one spoke out against it, they just didn't speak about it at all, which says volumes.


What did anyone say at these rallies in support of the IRS or the FED?

WHO spoke against the anti-fed movement?
WHO spoke against the anti-tax movement?

(I didn’t think so.)


Are you really that ignorant? It doesn't take a genious to put 2 and 2 together. There silence on the issue like i've said speaks volumes.


So, explain how can a movement that participates in and organizes Tea Party rallies was “hijacked” by the other organizers who share the same values and objective?


Keyword participates. The Tea Party express i'm sure oranizes there on movement. Like I said we are talking about THE TEA PARTY EXPRESS. The most widely recognized Tea Party Movement. Getting confused again? And I hardly believe that the values and objective of the mainstream Tea Party Express shares the same values and objectives as all the other Tea Party movements.

Yeah, the tea party express shares the same message as the neo-cons do, but where is the Fed on there site? Where is the IRS on there site? You know the message supported by most of the other not so mainstream Tea Party organizations.

We are talking about the Tea Party Express as stated in the OP, the mainstream of the movement.


Goodbye “conspiracy.”


Don't think so.



[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]

[edit on 9/14/2009 by Uniceft17]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 11:36 PM
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reply to post by Uniceft17
 

Look the OP refers to December 16, 2007 as the "birth of the "Tea Party Movement."

You claim that "teaparty07" was an anti-federal reserve and anti-IRS "protest movement."

I've shown you quotes from their site that reveal that "teaparty07" was a blog for a one-time (12/16/07) Ron Paul online fundraiser.

No rallies. No public events. Not even any meetings.

Show me I am wrong.

I've shown you that "Campaign for Liberty" did not exist in 2007.
Or in 2008.

C4L began in 2009 to protest big government.

I've quoted their "mission" statement:

Our mission is to promote and defend the great American principles of individual liberty, constitutional government, sound money, free markets, and a noninterventionist foreign policy, by means of educational and political activity.


Now, these two "tea party founders" (according to you) in no way limit their respective missions to "anti-fed" and "anti-IRS" doctrine.

The OP premise is FALSE:

On December 16th, 2007 the Tea Party movement was in its infant stages, started by Ron Paul supporters based on the principals of smaller governement, anti-taxation, abolishing the IRS and the Federal Reserve, a sweeping change on monetary policy, ending the wars and non-interventionist foreign policy.


First,you throw in the "IRS and Fed" stuff. It is not in the mission I quoted above.

Second, C4L didn't even exist then! And "teaparty07" was a fundraising BLOG! I say "was," because it is essentially a dead site. Yao hasn't updated it in ages!

The premise is NOT TRUE for either of the organizations you cited. Therefore, it is false.

Moreover, once C4L got around to existing sometime in 2009,the Tea Party tax protests had already begun! Are you claiming some sort of Copyright infringement?

Even if you were, you'd lose, because there is no "confusion of the product/service."

The original Tea Party TAX protesters I've cited share the same principles (or "key issues" as you call them).

Here's C4L (again): "principles of individual liberty, constitutional government, sound money, free markets, and a noninterventionist foreign policy."

Same as the guys I cited two or three posts above.

When you say "politicians and speakers" appeared AGAINST the "key issues," the best you've got is "they didn't speak FOR them."

"Against" does not equal "not for." Someone could be indifferent to, or less motivated by, that issue without being "against."

Again, your premise fails.

As for "inviting opponents," some of the best strategic advice is: "keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."

You are several pages into this thread, yet you cannot support a single part of your premise, much of which consist of your feelings and opinions rather than those you claim as support or proof.

As for the "Tea Party Express," that is only a fragment (although a very successful and popular one) of the overall Tea Party movment. The original organizers I've identified for you still exist. Still organize. Still rally.

Which is a lot more than "teaparty07" is doing. That blog site is essentially DEAD! Yao hasn't updated his fundraising site since the date (December 16, 2007) you give as the "founding" of the movement.


Finally, you keep stating and implying that "conservatives" and neo-cons "hijacked" the movement.

Did you forget that Ron Paul IS A CONSERVATIVE? I have yet to see what or whom you mean by "neocons." A literal translation would be "new conservatives." Who cares if they're old or new?

Hell, I was "neo" long before you were ever "con."

Your premise is false. The thread is debunked.

Deny ignorance.

jw

[edit on 14-9-2009 by jdub297]

[edit on 14-9-2009 by jdub297]



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297


Look the OP refers to December 16, 2007 as the "birth of the "Tea Party Movement."


And I stand by that statement, Are you saying that the countless Tea Party protests there on after that date weren't inspired by the Ron Paul fundraiser(not all but for the most part)? Did you even go to protests way back then? Judging from the statements you've made in this thread i'm guessing not? You act like this just started yesterday.


You claim that "teaparty07" was an anti-federal reserve and anti-IRS "protest movement."


I really hate repeating myself, but i'll do it again anyways since your reading comprehension skills are extremely bad.

"No I didn't say that, I said it was the start of the movement, a spin-off from the Tea Party fundraiser it inspired the movement. Is that so hard for you to understand?"

And you never replied to or attempted to debunk that statement.


I've shown you quotes from their site that reveal that "teaparty07" was a blog for a one-time (12/16/07) Ron Paul online fundraiser.


And you've already read my response earlier in my thread to your assertion, you just simply ignored it and moved on. Will you do it again?


No rallies. No public events. Not even any meetings.


Once again, I said that it was a spin off an inspiration for the Tea Party protests through the year 2008. Do you not remember this? You can even see it today at the 9/12 protests, The heart of the movement lives on, but it's overshadowed by the highjacked movement, which was the purpose of the hijacking.



I've shown you that "Campaign for Liberty" did not exist in 2007.
Or in 2008.


Wrong.



The Campaign for Liberty was announced on June 12, 2008 as a way of continuing the grassroots support involved in Ron Paul's 2008 presidential run, and corresponded with the suspension of that campaign.


Source.



Now, these two "tea party founders" (according to you) in no way limit their respective missions to "anti-fed" and "anti-IRS" doctrine.


QUOTE ME WHERE I SAID THAT, AND THIS TIME DON'T IGNORE IT.



First,you throw in the "IRS and Fed" stuff. It is not in the mission I quoted above.


Are you BLIND, Do you even know what you are talking about, it's right there in the mission you quoted above, somehow you don't see it, and obviously you know nothing about Ron Paul if you don't know what it means when he says SOUND MONEY, Have you ever heard Ron Paul talk about sound money? If you had you would have realized he was talking about THE FED.


"constitutional government, sound money"

CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT=illegal IRS AND SOUND MONEY=FED


Moreover, once C4L got around to existing sometime in 2009,the Tea Party tax protests had already begun! Are you claiming some sort of Copyright infringement?


The Tea Party tax protests largely started in 2008. If you are trying to state that they didn't then you are simply leaving common sense at the door, it's widely known all over ATS when the protests started.


The original Tea Party TAX protesters I've cited share the same principles (or "key issues" as you call them).


I've acknowledged this.

"Yeah, the tea party express shares the same message as the neo-cons do, but where is the Fed on there site? Where is the IRS on there site? You know the message supported by most of the other not so mainstream Tea Party organizations."

Do you read before you reply?


When you say "politicians and speakers" appeared AGAINST the "key issues," the best you've got is "they didn't speak FOR them."


Hell yeah, what do you have to show they are for that part of the movement, nothing. For them to simply ignore this major issue is absurd, they know what's going on, they are or 'were' in high places. And that's not my only reason for being against them. Palin wanted to expand the vice presidents constituional obligations as she stated in the debate, she agreed with Cheney. That goes against another CORE principal of the movement. Rick Perry is a bilderberger, transparency my ass.


"Against" does not equal "not for." Someone could be indifferent to, or less motivated by, that issue without being "against."


Nope, sorry that argument fails. Less motivated by the Fed issue, seems like their would be plenty of motivation to get behind that issue, besides the fact that is completely illegal and unconstituional and the fact that they are bringing the downfall of our nation.

Please "indifferent, less motivated?" Next!


Again, your premise fails.


The premise of my thread is that the fed or the IRS is not mentioned in the Tea Party Express movement, nor the constitution. They invite neo-con speakers and even offer them leadership posistions. And they have suceeded in there goal, to lump all the tea party protests together. The media had a field day with the Palin invite, I can't go to a Tea Party protests without being called a neo-con because the Tea Party Express has completely redefined what the Tea Party movement was ALL about. The movement has been turned into a tool by the right and left, by the right to bash Obama and by the left to make it look like a bunch of partisan lunatics. Debunk that!


As for "inviting opponents," some of the best strategic advice is: "keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."


How does that apply to this argument and what would be the strategic advantages? Please do share.


You are several pages into this thread, yet you cannot support a single part of your premise, much of which consist of your feelings and opinions rather than those you claim as support or proof.


Most everyone on this thread shares my opinions on this. This is a conspiracy and i've given plenty of facts to support my premise above. No mention of IRS or Fed, Invited Neo-con speakers and even offered them leadership posistions. This movement has taken over the message of the the original tea parties that you have cited. The Tea Party protests today aren't known for what they used to be.


As for the "Tea Party Express," that is only a fragment (although a very successful and popular one) of the overall Tea Party movment. The original organizers I've identified for you still exist. Still organize. Still rally.


Oh please! You aren't giving enough credit where credit is due, The Tea Party Express has MAJORLY overshadowed the less mainstream of the movement and the message has largely been changed. Even a blind person could 'see' that.


Which is a lot more than "teaparty07" is doing. That blog site is essentially DEAD! Yao hasn't updated his fundraising site since the date (December 16, 2007) you give as the "founding" of the movement.


I don't know how many times you are going to use this to debunk the so called 'premise' of my thread. I have done clarified that statement.


Finally, you keep stating and implying that "conservatives" and neo-cons "hijacked" the movement.


Yup.



Did you forget that Ron Paul IS A CONSERVATIVE? I have yet to see what or whom you mean by "neocons." A literal translation would be "new conservatives." Who cares if they're old or new?


I use conservative to describe the sponsors of the Tea Party Express because I don't really know much about them, But I've learned plenty about the Tea Party Express over the past weeks to know that it stinks with partisan BS.

Neo-cons would be someone like Sarah Palin. A conservative would be someone like Ron Paul. Maybe you can figure out the difference between the 2.



[edit on 9/15/2009 by Uniceft17]



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by Uniceft17
 


It's obvious that you will cling to your "conspiracy" regardless of support or the lack of it.

But let's consider the implications.

Your theory seems to be ( as I pointed out early on) that if the Tea Party Express does not explicitly endorse and advocate your "key issues" they are implicitly undermining them.

If it's only that they've "hijacked" the idea for their own agenda, then so what?

This is akin to saying:
"If you're not for me, then you must be against me." (Applying your logic in reverse.)

Ever hear of "a distinction without a difference?" This is a conspiracy without a point.

Unless you contend that somehow the Tea Party Express is in favor of expansionist monetary policy, or in favor of higher taxes and IRS intrusion, then so what if the "key issues" are swept up in the whirlwind of discontent?

"E pluribus unum," no?

"Hijacked" has sinister connotations. So, what is the effect (assuming it's true)?

More fed expansion? Higher taxes?

Do you really believe that the Tea Party Express supports that?

I'm no fan of watered-down discontent. I regret the fact that some will criticize the Tea Party movement because the Tea Party Express capitalized on its popularity.

But, isn't that the goal, anyway? To "awaken the sleeping giant?"

If such devoted advocates as you don't speak up in favor of the "key issues," who will? You obviously don't like the Tea Party Express efforts. So do something.

Muttering about a "conspiracy of silence" in a blog doesn't help you get the "key issues" out in front.

It borders on paranoia.

Early on, I gave the analogy of the kid with the ball who took it home becuase the neighbor kids wanted to play a different game with HIS ball.
That still stands.

Your paranoia comes through in the snivelling "If you're not for me (and my "key issues), then you are against me" attitude.

I'll ask again. So what if the Tea Party doesn't advocate for "key issues?" Isn't that why C4L are there? Isn't that why YOU'RE here?

Do something besides cry "conspiracy."

Deny ignorance.

jw



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by C0le
What happened is simple, The original movement attacked the problem at the source, The Federal Reserve, and we all know the FED is a key asset of TPTB, The MSM played an important rolle early on in the republican primaries at discrediting the movement labeling its supporters as terrorists and nuttjobs and completely destroyed Ron Pauls chance at getting the public attention he deserved.

But as I said the original movement attacked the problem at the source, and the Elite contolled MSM didnt like that at all, so what did they do? They turned the movement into the same game theyve played for the last century, They turned it into a right vs left issue, and in doing so it shifts the focus off of them and onto one side or the other it didnt really matter which side it was deflected to because both sides do what they have always done, keep peoples attention away from the actual problem, in this case the its much easier to place the blame on the Democratic side but as i said it doesnt really matter which side takes the blame at any given time becqause either way the goal has been accomplished, the goal being deflecting the attention.

Imho whats going on now is the infant stages of a revolution, but not the revolution a true contitutionalist would agree with, because as we know, the cause has been hijacked, and now its in the control of TPTB, so when the revolution does happen it will be Right vs Left and not Patriot vs TPTB.

Something will happen, the momentum is growing day by day, Fox News has done an excelent job at getting the Right wing conservatives rilled up and ready to snap at any moment, and when they do it will give TPTB all the reason they need to do whatever they want to this country, anarchy and chaos is the only escuse need to implement the myriad of laws passed after 9/11 into full affect.

Sadly when this does happen it will destroy any chances of ever getting this country back, because in the aftermath TPTB will be the solution to all of our problems, they will end the chaos, rebuild whatever is left, and walk away even wealthier than before and with total unquestioned control and power.


Sadly, you are dead right.



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