Originally posted by McGotti
This is all part of the original "operation SHOCK AND AWE"

I would say that it may shock a few people into mindless acceptance of hatred towards iraq..therefore giving free reign and full support of whatever bush has to do " get revenge on them for killing an american"

this is how the vicious circle begins.
1. bin laden takes down Twin Towers for his ideas of wrong doing by americans.
2. americans strike back by bombing iraq "looking for Laden"
3. rebellion Iraqi group strikes back because america harmed prisoners of war
4. america will strike back next...either by using the 4 men currently captured and put em up for public execution. 4 scapegoats. or strike back by sending in soem reinforcement killing some more iraqi's.
5. iraqi rebellions will then strike back in return etc etc....

as for Shock and awe effect that will lead dozens of children to join the army when they become old enough to be drafted. i think that is not entirely true. If the kid knows the background story and has been given time and oppurtunity to discuss it with others. I'm sure most kids will decide not to join the army on free will.

this i know from experience in my own country where we have been shown images like this for years since age 9-10. not just my class, but also kids before and after me. over here you also join the armed forces on your own choice. and lets just say that most ppl dont join. if they do its as a peacekeeper. meaning you get send to some barren cold country and sit on your lazy arse while the government pays you so you can have a nice amount of money safed up plus an education when you get out of the army.

but as i see it. america has a lot of inner termoil going on between parties. it amazes me that they deal with outside politics instead of dealing with their own. i believe that all countries, no matter which one, needs to deal with their own issues first before getting involved with others. after all if you got problems you're weak and will only get in the way of the others. and in america's case the parties are trying to discredit one another over the expensive of the rest of the world. just to show of "look my party is better then yours so ner ner". i find it rather childish. and these ppl belong to the g8..or was it g7 again? - can't keep up with the changes. it's like old servie that changes names each year or so.

Originally posted by McGotti
This is all part of the original "operation SHOCK AND AWE"

I would say that it may shock a few people into mindless acceptance of hatred towards iraq..therefore giving free reign and full support of whatever bush has to do " get revenge on them for killing an american"

they murdered an american. theres a difference. killing is what soldiers do. murdering is something that people do to get a point across or to prove or for revenge. the middle east IS THE MOST BACKWARDS AND LEFT BEHIND REGION ON THE PLANET.

That dumb ass american was not in the army....He was not even contracted to go over there...I dont feel sorry for him and it probably was u.s. involved all the way....

You call it murder...they call it a legitimate form of warefare and it works quite well.....

Bergs stupid ass should should have not been there or at least had a gun and went down like a real american....guns blazing!

Originally posted by McGotti
That dumb ass american was not in the army....He was not even contracted to go over there...I dont feel sorry for him and it probably was u.s. involved all the way....

You call it murder...they call it a legitimate form of warefare and it works quite well.....

Bergs stupid ass should should have not been there or at least had a gun and went down like a real american....guns blazing!

WARNING: THIS IS A LAME ASS POST. MAY CAUSE SEVERE EYE AND BRAIN IRRITATION AND IN SOME CASES STRONG BOWEL DISCOMFORT.



I don't even know what the hell this guy is talking about. Dude, you just sound heartless.

That seriously is a 10 year old mentality. I'm not trying to flame you with that, but just being completely honest.

I am not heartless...im just not a media loving fool like yourself

I feel more forthe 10,000+ dead iraqis civilians killed by..brave americans fighting for freedom(lol)

My point is if you walk out on to a busy highway like a fool and get run over multiple times and killed I can only feel so sorry for someone that puts themself in that situation....

Berg went to iraq for money!!! He wanted to some of that big government contract money...he was not their for freedom...he was thier for money..period!!!

no I dont feel that sorry for him

Originally posted by McGotti
Berg went to iraq for money!!! He wanted to some of that big government contract money...he was not their for freedom...he was thier for money..period!!!

Well, I guess the question is, how much do you know about Berg?

I heard otherwise, he was there more to assist them in rebuilding. He did the same thing in South Africa...gotta get paid for it, but wasn't all about money for him if you listen to what his friends and family say, Including Iraqi's who he knew, which is why this is such a tragedy, he was there to help the Iraqi people. There are good people out there who dont do things just for money. really, there are!

Berg went there for the same reasons every other civilian westerner goes there...they are paying huge salaries simply because its far and its dangerous...thats the only reason anyone would go there....they make hindreds of thousands driving trucks and construction...

Rebuilding cell phone towers never crosses my mind when I think of a brave unselfish freedom fighter..

Pointis..if youdont wanna die...dont go where people hate you or you may end up dead..plain and simple...fairly predictable to tell the truth

Well, I can't argue that he would of known the risks.

But what does this have to do with the video being shown to kids? LOL

Not a thing!

Kids are young and easily influenced...

Some conservative know it all teacher probably thought that since he is a rebublican that he knows whats best for the children..teach them that all iraqis deserve death because they have not bowed down to american power....

propaganda plain and simple

Originally posted by McGotti
Some conservative know it all teacher probably thought that since he is a rebublican that he knows whats best for the children
propaganda plain and simple

and from another of your posts

They are showing impressionable youth, through the schools these types of things is for propaganda reasons...pro-war propaganda....

This from the original story

Carol told all of San Diego that her 16-year-old daughter was shown the video of Nick Berg's decapitation in her photography class at El Capitan High School! And if that wasn't bad enough, Carol said the Photography teacher at El Capitan said "Well, that's what we get for going to war" to her students after they saw the video.

So this certainly does not sound like conservative, pro-war propaganda, does it? More like liberal, anti-war propaganda, correct?






[Edited on 19-5-2004 by jsobecky]

Back to the topic at hand...

I understand seeing dead bodies from Holocaust and dead bodies from other wars may be needed because the situation was extremely historical and needs to be taught, and that seeing a dead body is different than seeing someone killed but what about things such as the monks setting themselves on fire to protest the Vietnam war? That really isn't necessary to teach (although its a lasting image) and is showing someone being killed. Should this be banned too? Should my teacher be punished for showing it? Should the makers of my history textbook be fined for having the picture of it? Or no, because some double standard?

Cutwolf:

Back to the topic at hand. Let's say you are a parent of a young girl, 13 -14, who is just growing up starry-eyed like a typical young teenager.

She walks into her math class, which is taught by a pro-lifer who decides that the class needs to know about the horrors of abortion. So instead of writing equations on the board, he shows a film depicting partial-birth abortion and bloody aborted fetuses.

Your daughter, who loves babies, is shocked, horrified, and who knows how traumatized by the film.

Your right to control how the facts of parenthood are presented to your daughter are taken away forever.

Abortion has nothing to do with math class.

BUT.....

According to you, you would 'commend' the teacher for showing the film.

Kids are 'cool' and sophisticated enough to handle this.

They need to learn about this at this age and at the time and place that this teacher decides it should be taught. After all, abortion happens in the real world, does it not?

That pretty much sums up your position, doesn't it? Or did I miss anything?

It's really tiresome that you portray your "little girl" as someone who cant think for herself. I can place myself in your situation quite well here.

I got a sister that i look after for quite some time now. she's 13-15 years old. I know for a fact that she is not a "little girl" and can think for herself and make up her own mind no matter what a teacher says. It's not just her, but her friends as well. Whenever they disagree with something they will say it and they will go to the proper authorities to deal with it. Heck last week they showed the beheading here on her school. Not one person made a fuss about it. She told me they watched the video and it looked gruesome so she had to look away at the end. Still in the class they had a small discussion in which they could ask questions and share their opinions. When home she and I had a small conversation about it as well. That was the end and neither her nor I have braught it up because it's a closed chapter now. Same goes for abortion or any "serious" topic". She sees, discuss it, forms her own opinon, chapter closed. No eerie dreams or feelings of guilt or what other nonsense.

In FACT after kids over here seen these images and had time and chance to discuss it...vast majority decides never to enter the armed forces.

Sure my sister needs "protection" at times or "advice", but that are only about every days issues. Issues such as relationships. As for war images she can think well enough for herself. and so do most of her age from her school.

You sound like a regular dad. One who think his daughter is just a little girl and needs to be protected 24/7. I can understand it (regular daddy behaviour), but it's pretty annoying. Not just for me as a reader, but i bet for your daughter as well.

You've read my views on showing the footage. I still stand by it. Kids aren't as easily traumatised as you make it out to be. Perhaps it's just the way your country and mine works. If so then stop pampering your kids and teach them to grow up and mature a bit faster. This is easily done by just exposing them to issues and having rational discussions about it. Being mature has nothing to do with taking away their youth and fun times, thats just bollox.

Parents these days seem to go to much by governmental tests and oprah winfrey-ish talkshows to determine what is right or wrong. That annoys me, because all of that...is bollox in my eyes. This I've told my own parents as well. "Stop pampering me so I can finally grow up". These days there is to much talk and to little action.

[Edited on 22-5-2004 by Enyalius]

Enyalius

Thanks for your response, fraught though it is with misconception and error. But I was addressing my question to CutWolf.

Or do you think he needs help, that he's not able to answer for himself? Sort of flies in the face of your arguments, doesn't it?

So this certainly does not sound like conservative, pro-war propaganda, does it? More like liberal, anti-war propaganda, correct?


I dont believe those lies........I know it was the teachers were paid top dollar by the cia to.....

1. test the publics reaction to the teacher showing this film

2. to test the reaction of the young impressionable students,..see if anger if experienced...in other words check the patriotism of the students..

Once the media got a hold of it the teachers went ahead with the pre-writtin speeches writtin for them by the CIA weeks in advance...The nice part is the even made it look like it was part of a anti-war statement...simple hilarious...

Anybody in there right mind knows the only reason this tape would be shown is too show how evil the "terrorist" are and that the desreve to be treated as animals..plain and simple...

These CIA psyops are very cleaver...you dont think they thought about the possible outrage of this and they covered their ass by making it seem as if it was part of a anti-war issue...

So not only did they get to test the students and the publics reaction they also got to make the anti-war people look like sick animals that would show a tape of a murder to children to convince them that war is bad..

worked fairly well from the look of everyones reaction..

JSO, you want me to reply? Here is my reply:


It's really tiresome that you portray your "little girl" as someone who cant think for herself. I can place myself in your situation quite well here.

I got a sister that i look after for quite some time now. she's 13-15 years old. I know for a fact that she is not a "little girl" and can think for herself and make up her own mind no matter what a teacher says. It's not just her, but her friends as well. Whenever they disagree with something they will say it and they will go to the proper authorities to deal with it. Heck last week they showed the beheading here on her school. Not one person made a fuss about it. She told me they watched the video and it looked gruesome so she had to look away at the end. Still in the class they had a small discussion in which they could ask questions and share their opinions. When home she and I had a small conversation about it as well. That was the end and neither her nor I have braught it up because it's a closed chapter now. Same goes for abortion or any "serious" topic". She sees, discuss it, forms her own opinon, chapter closed. No eerie dreams or feelings of guilt or what other nonsense.

In FACT after kids over here seen these images and had time and chance to discuss it...vast majority decides never to enter the armed forces.

Sure my sister needs "protection" at times or "advice", but that are only about every days issues. Issues such as relationships. As for war images she can think well enough for herself. and so do most of her age from her school.

You sound like a regular dad. One who think his daughter is just a little girl and needs to be protected 24/7. I can understand it (regular daddy behaviour), but it's pretty annoying. Not just for me as a reader, but i bet for your daughter as well.

You've read my views on showing the footage. I still stand by it. Kids aren't as easily traumatised as you make it out to be. Perhaps it's just the way your country and mine works. If so then stop pampering your kids and teach them to grow up and mature a bit faster. This is easily done by just exposing them to issues and having rational discussions about it. Being mature has nothing to do with taking away their youth and fun times, thats just bollox.

Parents these days seem to go to much by governmental tests and oprah winfrey-ish talkshows to determine what is right or wrong. That annoys me, because all of that...is bollox in my eyes. This I've told my own parents as well. "Stop pampering me so I can finally grow up". These days there is to much talk and to little action.

Well, now it makes perfect sense. Starting with the sentence

Heck last week they showed the beheading here on her school.

which is a TOTAL, contrived, made up, LIE, proves to my satisfaction what I've been dealing with. Puerile, sophomoric bullcrap.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Enyalius

Thanks for your response, fraught though it is with misconception and error. But I was addressing my question to CutWolf.

Or do you think he needs help, that he's not able to answer for himself? Sort of flies in the face of your arguments, doesn't it?

i still got the right to reply don't i? or is this just a thread between you 2? if that is the case may i suggest the use of u2u?

also how do you know they didn't show the beheading at school? over here we got schools.(netherlands) in the specific school I attended, and now my sister, the kids are shown taped recordings of the news weekly since the age of 9-10. my sister knew what was going on and showed mild interest on it herself. i even signed a paper that i was ok that she could see the recording at school if she wanted. so i was aware they were going to show the footage on time or another during the week. so she watched, just like a bunch of others. of course there were kids that didnt get consent from their parents, but most did. they didn't just show the beheading, but an entire summary of events. that is what she said. since that school has been doing the same when i attented i got no reason to doubt her

over here teachers didn't put any political voice into it to say what is right or wrong. no they spent almost the entire afternoon discussing what they saw and everything that happened around it. the teachers asked questions and made the kids think about all of it.

oh and my sister still sleeps just fine. and from what she told me no one is really bothered by it. it may be bull crap to you. but its just a different society and country. just because we do things differently doesnt make it crap.

[Edited on 22-5-2004 by Enyalius]

I don't even know why we are talking about the kid angle.

I know that more often than not, adults are not going to take this the right way, nor will they take anything constructive from the whole ordeal.

What makes you think that kids are anything different, only less mature and a lot less knowledgeable.

I sit here in this site and listen to people bitch and moan all day about how parents suck, AND THEY DO.

So why now that parents have gotten control over their child education removed somewhat, are people backing that up?

It's a stupid arguement. It should not have been shown to KIDS. Let the parents do what they want.

I agree with KJ on this, thre parents should be notified in advance and ok their students participation in this charged issue and violent imagery.

One only needs to look at what cutwolf said about kids that had seen the video to see why..

cutwolf says,
"In FACT after kids over here seen these images and had time and chance to discuss it...vast majority decides never to enter the armed forces."

How did the kids come to this false conclusion?

The kids see a civilian murdered and they connect this to being in the armed forces how? By mis-guided teachers and lack of wisdom as they are still only 13....while it would seem they can "make a judgment" for themselves.....it is entirely possible they will judge poorly as well. ahh youthful ignorance.

Why didnt the kids reach a different conclusion after seeing this video?
How did millitary service become linked to this video?
Not one kid saw the video and said, that act was wrong and those people need to be stopped? not one said they would stand up and fight against sick terrorists? how is this possible?

We are raising a generation of weakling, crybabies, with no guts that would be totally lost if the tv stopped playing today.