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What Do Republicans Want? - A Real Question

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posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by greeneyedleo
All of those documents are easily faked. Although the real ID scares most people, at the end of the day, it seems the only identification that may work in cases such as this. Eventually someone will figure a way to make fake ones.....but what other solution do we have to ensure that people are who they say they are?


Understood. I would suggest background check.

Do you know how long a background check takes? About 15 minutes. Anyone who buys or sells or transfers guns, for example, knows about background checks. At one time, these checks required a couple of days. With the advent of the Internet, it takes about 15 minutes to scan a person's entire biography. Every time I transfer a firearm, I go through a background check...while I wait.

Why not similar citizenship checks for every applicant for U.S. government assistance?

— Doc Velocity




posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by Doc Velocity
 



Look, WE ALREADY KNOW that the U.S. Congress is working to grant amnesty to illegal aliens — approximately 12 million Mexican illegal aliens, specifically. Whoever grants that amnesty and gives these 12 million illegals instant U.S. citizenship is going to instantly gain 12 million voters for their side.


Exaggerating? It does not give them instant us citizenship. It puts them at the back of the line. They would be temporary permission to be in US. They would have to wait about 10 years or longer to get their residence alien card and another 5 years from that point to get their citizenship. They cannot vote unless they are citizen.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by jam321
Exaggerating? It does not give them instant us citizenship.


Wait a minute, everything that I know about the Obama administration and the Obama Congress tells me that they are using a FAST fast-track approach to the "challenges" facing America.

Why wouldn't they ram through instant citizenship? It's no more outrageous than gifting a trillion dollars to the worst practices of the American banking industry.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:17 PM
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reply to post by Doc Velocity
 



Why wouldn't they ram through instant citizenship? It's no more outrageous than gifting a trillion dollars to the worst practices of the American banking industry.


Because granting citizenship directly to these individuals would undermine the whole citizenship process. I grant you that the possibility exists. But just recently, they updated the citizenship test to make it more difficult to get citizenship. They are also denying people for the littlest of reasons.


As applications for naturalization have surged, overburdened federal examiners, under pressure to make quick decisions and also weed out any security risks, prefer to err on the side of rejection, immigration lawyers and independent researchers said. In 2007, 89,683 applications for naturalization were denied, about 12 percent of those presented.

In the last 12 years, denial rates have been consistently higher than at any time since the 1920s.

Though precise figures are not available, an increasing number of these denials involve immigrants who believed they were in good legal standing, according to lawyers and researchers. Under the law, a number of grounds for naturalization denial can lead to an order of deportation, and appeals are more limited than in criminal cases.


www.nytimes.com... hBwq3Ila5Yw&pagewanted=all



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by jam321
Exaggerating? It does not give them instant us citizenship.



Why wouldn't they ram through instant citizenship? It's no more outrageous than gifting a trillion dollars to the worst practices of the American banking industry.



HELL why wouldn't a cabinet filled with oil and defense men use 9/11 as an excuse to invade the second most oil rich nation on the planet...



[edit on 11-9-2009 by mental modulator]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by mental modulator


Well first of all the "PUBLIC OPTION" would only be available to people who are legally employed and paying payroll taxes and their company does not offer ANY HEALTHCARE.

In order to be legally employed and all that entails...



Are you speaking hypothetically, or are you stating what's in Obama's prescriptions for a health care plan?

Are you saying that people who are unemployed or self-employed or part-timers will not be eligible for the public option? What about people who have lousy healthcare under their present employers and would like a better plan?

That's not good.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by Sestias

Originally posted by mental modulator


Well first of all the "PUBLIC OPTION" would only be available to people who are legally employed and paying payroll taxes and their company does not offer ANY HEALTHCARE.

In order to be legally employed and all that entails...



Are you speaking hypothetically, or are you stating what's in Obama's prescriptions for a health care plan?

Are you saying that people who are unemployed or self-employed or part-timers will not be eligible for the public option? What about people who have lousy healthcare under their present employers and would like a better plan?

That's not good.


Thats what I understand of it...

I order to be eligible for a public "OPTION" one would have to be employed by an employer who does not offer any plan. Most people would not have it as an option...


Anyhow if it is passed with a trigger there will be NO option anyway you cut it.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I want to see that the procedures for verifying citizenship are in this bill up front, not added later.


THAT is the answer to my question. Thank you.



Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Why is it an infringement on our freedom to demand that everyone who wants to go on U.S. government assistance should be documented as a U.S. citizen?


I don't think it is. It's the implementation that will be seen as infringing on freedoms. And the bill does call for verification of eligibility... It's pretty clear. It just doesn't say how.



Congress has a solid and sorry track record for writing intentionally ambiguous and misleading legislation that is never enforced.


If the bill calls for verification of eligibility and you think that wont be honored, what makes you think that enforcement written into the act would be any more likely to be honored? I mean if they write intentionally ambiguous laws, why would writing about enforcement hold any weight?


Originally posted by greeneyedleo
With that said, I absolutely do not think we as the United States should pay for the health care of those who are not legally here. So, what do we do when an illegal ends up in the hospital or need of care?


This is the topic of treating illegal immigrants in urgent need of care. That's a COMPLETELY different topic than letting them have or buy health insurance under the new bill.

The hospitals in the US are obligated to treat anyone who comes in. That has been happening for a while and will continue to happen after the Health Insurance Plan. This bill will have no effect on that one way or another.

What I think I'm seeing is a "hope" that somehow this bill will address THAT issue. But that's impossible. Because when someone shows up at the hospital, we can't wait to find out if they're legal or not. Not even 15 minutes. If someone shows up to apply for free health insurance, we can.



How do we proove that the patient is legal or illegal? Proper identification. I know everyone hates the real ID - but seems that in this case, it is necessary.


That's the only possible way to make sure that people who are treated in our emergency rooms are legal. But this also means that hospitals will be turning away people who don't have their IDs (or chip, mark or stamp). People will lie in the hospital Emergency Room and die. I don't think any of us wants that.

But this bill does not address that issue. It's a problem, I agree. But I don't think we can send a medical bill to a country without their permission to do so.



Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Sound far-fetched?


Yes, it does.

I really wish we could keep this on topic and not make is a generalized health care thread. We've got dozens of those. I'm trying to focus on what Republicans want in this bill as regards illegal immigrants.

So far, I have one answer from Doc... procedures in the bill.

Anything else? If Obama puts procedures in this bill for verifying eligibility for insurance, this will no longer be an issue with Republicans? I'm going to have to call him right away and let him know how simple your requests are, if that's the case. Is that it?



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:45 PM
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The only thing I want in the Health Care bill is one sentance. Here it is and I don't think its asking for much.

In plain every day language.

This will not raise taxes(any tax) one cent and it will not add one cent to our debt.

I could argue the illegals getting this healthcare is wrong all day long. I despise them and I wouldn't pick one up in the middle of I-10 on a hot summer day if his life depended on it.

But the fact is that no matter what our health care is, they will be a part of it and we as tax payers will pay for it. There is nothing that can be done about it. It is a fact of life now and there is no reason to cry about it.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:51 PM
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Originally posted by jd140
This will not raise taxes(any tax) one cent and it will not add one cent to our debt.


Obama said that in his speech the other night. Why is that any less valid than if it's written into a bill? You think he's lying, but would trust it in a bill? I'm asking.

[edit on 11-9-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by jam321
... granting citizenship directly to these individuals would undermine the whole citizenship process.


Ahem. I don't know if you've followed American politics for any length of time, but U.S. citizenship is dangled before the noses of prospective voters pretty regularly. There was a notable incident back in '94, I think, in Chicago, where illegal aliens were offered real Green Cards in exchange for their votes, and they were driven to the polling sites to cast their votes.

I know, it sounds insane, but it happened. Just as it sounds insane that the armed Black Panthers who hovered around polling sites, intimidating voters, were no-billed by the Obama Justice Department. But it happened.

These things happen all the time, undermining the very foundations of our society. They defy belief, and they are quickly swept under the carpet by the ruling party. Him who wins writes the rules as he goes, right?

My concern is that a patchwork piece of crap Healthcare Bill is going to be rammed through Congress this October (yeah, reconciliation), and then Congress bestows instant citizenship on 12 million illegals, in defiance of all rational thinking.

So far, this administration seems to have a serious problem with rational thinking.

— Doc Velocity



[edit on 9/11/2009 by Doc Velocity]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


George Bush Sr. also said no new taxes. How did that turn out?

Nope a politcions word doesn't mean that much to me. The only way you can tell if they are telling the truth about a bill or law is if it is in the final draft and is approved.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by drwizardphd
What part of (2) ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL do you not understand?


What part of illegal alien do you not understand? Everyday in this country, federal laws go unenforced, particularly those laws designed to prevent illegal aliens from burdening our system.


Excuse my frankness, but what the hell are you talking about?

My post was a reply to another poster who was stating that information about illegal immigrants was omitted from the bill. This is false.

The part pertaining to citizenship has now been brought up twice in this thread (you edited it out of my quote in your post, not sure why):



"(2) ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL.—The term 'eligible
13 individual' means an individual who is—
14 "(A) a citizen or national of the United
15 States or an alien lawfully admitted to the
16 United States for permanent residence or an
17 alien lawfully present in the United States;


Again, I'm not really sure why your rant/post was aimed at me, as I was simply reiterating to another poster the clause in the bill which pertains to citizenship, which that poster had claimed was nonexistant. I am very aware of the situation involving illegal immigrants in our country. I am also an advocate for human rights, and an advocate of handling this situation in the best possible manner for all people involved, citizen or not.

Whether or not you agree with it, illegal aliens are human beings as well. Simply because they are in this country unlawfully, does not give us carte blanche to round them up, march them off or exterminate them. This is the 21st century. We left our borders open, and now we have to deal with the consequences.



Again, regardless of how you feel about illegal aliens, or whether or not congress will be rushing amnesty through for those aliens, or whether or not you believe that is right, the fact remains that as long as the immigrants do not hold legal US citizenship, they will not be covered under this bill.

That is a fact.


If, as you said, Congress does grant citizenship to all illegal aliens, then they will be covered under the bill. But, they will just be normal immigrants then. Regardless of how you feel about them or the method they gained citizenship, they will be hard working, tax-paying citizens just like you and me.

When somebody lives and works in a country, and pays taxes in that country, they deserve healthcare from that country. That is how it works in the rest of the civilized world, and that is how it will work in the US. I'm not sure why there is such an outlash against progress from select individuals, but the majority of Americans are ready for reform.



posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 12:18 AM
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Yet, with all these assurances, I know that this bill will end up covering illegal aliens. You think it won't? I'll BET YOU that illegal aliens will sign up for ObamaCare and receive it. Name your wager. That's how sure I am that this legislation is a politically-motivated rush-job and a piece of garbage.

Sit back and watch it happen.

Or stand up and stop it.

— Doc Velocity







[edit on 9/12/2009 by Doc Velocity]



posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Yet, with all these assurances, I know that this bill will end up covering illegal aliens.


This is as I suspected. No matter WHAT'S in the bill, people who are against it, are against it. Not because of the content, but because they want to block whatever Obama does. It's the Republican way these days.

I thought I could ask a serious question here and get lots of good input and advice on what Republicans would like to see in this bill to go along with it, since they've been complaining about it so much. What was I thinking??? The discussion devolved several times and I never did get a real answer to my question. I can almost imagine how Obama feels trying to get some kind of coherent feedback from people who just want his policies to fail no matter what they are... I learned something valuable at least.


I don't know why I expected anything different, actually... How silly of me to think that the objections to this bill had some kind of valid meat behind them.



posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 09:48 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 





So, my question still stands. What would you like to see in the bill that would prevent illegal immigrants from getting free health insurance under this plan? (If that is the concern.)


So how do you want to die by firing squad or by hanging.


I, who have had no health care insurance for over ten years do not want Socialized Health Care at ALL at least not at this time.

THE COUNTRY IS GOING BANKRUPT, THE DOLLAR HAS LOST INTERNATIONAL STANDING "In a report published Monday, September 7, 2009, the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development acknowledged that the U.S. dollar must be replaced as the world’s reserve currency." link

What I want is the government to clean up its messes before it does anything else and that does not include driving the USA further in debt!




I am amazed that the US government, in the midst of the worst financial crises ever, is content for short-selling to drive down the asset prices that the government is trying to support....The bald fact is that the combination of ignorance, negligence, and ideology that permitted the crisis to happen still prevails and is blocking any remedy. Either the people in power in Washington and the financial community are total dimwits or they are manipulating an opportunity to redistribute wealth from taxpayers, equity owners and pension funds to the financial sector. Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury www.countercurrents.org...



posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I don't buy into the 2 party bickering at all, it's a divide and conquer strategy. I'm glad people are finally paying attention and voicing their concerns, right or wrong. It's high time American people start paying attention to what's going on around them. We are ALL in this together.

It appears that there must be something to the whole Illegal Immigrant debacle, considering they have started to include provisions specifically regarding Illegals.

Source




. . . on Friday, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs sketched a new position that goes even further than some conservative critics had demanded: Obama will oppose letting illegal immigrants buy insurance through new purchasing exchanges the government will set up - even from private companies operating within the exchanges.

. . . Illegal immigrants were to be allowed in the exchange and even in the public plan if they used their own money under legislation that passed three committees in the House and one in the Senate.



posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 10:19 AM
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I dont know what "republicans" want but I registered as one in college and I might still be registered as one. Not sure.

What I want is to be left alone. I dont want anything from government. Not one thing. Take it all away, whatever it is I'm getting from it. In return I do not want government asking for/taking by force anything from me.

Seems pretty simple. Would cost nothing to implement. In fact would save money that is currently wasted in countless levels of bureaucracy.

Yet government refuses. It continues with it's unprovoked aggression towards me.

It's all I want. It's all I've ever wanted. Why does government refuse to let me go? What does it need me for?



posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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Hmmm....How about this? Issue a card when you fill out your W-2 or your business licenses for self-employment.

$10/wk single
$25/wk family

$10 copay for general office visits
$25/day copay for hospital visit
$50 copay for ER visit or surgery

Optical, Dental, Mental Health would fall under general office unless specialized surgery or extended stays are required.


That is 999.75 pages shorter, covers more and is very straight forward.

Anyone not employed can surely be covered under the other programs out their and the truly poor can their copays picked up by a variety of charitable organizations that the majority of rich donate to for the tax deduction.

Need more in the operation fund then adjust the weekly deductions and leave the copay rates alone. Retirees that have made all their previous work requirements under SSI qualify for weekly premium coverage in full or in part based on the individual or the spouse depending on how their SSI qualifies them.

Is it really so hard to come with such a thing? Would anyone disagree that it is unfair? There is still room for insurance companies to offer supplemental coverage that would take care of the copays. And believe me, it took far longer to type this then to think about it.

Edit to add, for those that do not like the coverage, you still have to pay the $10/wk but you are free to seek out traditional insurance coverage from a private provider.



[edit on 12-9-2009 by Ahabstar]



posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 12:04 PM
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reply to post by OrganizedChaos
 


That's great news. Thanks for bringing it to this thread!
My hope is that the bill will make certain to not make insurance available to illegal immigrants under ANY circumstances. I have a hard ass position against illegal immigration
but I hate to see Congressional Republicans using that as a means to block this bill. Good on Obama for listening and doing more about it.


Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
What I want is to be left alone. I dont want anything from government. Not one thing. Take it all away, whatever it is I'm getting from it.


You don't want public schools, roads, bridges, law enforcement, fire fighters, state and national parks, regulations on air, electricity and water, on the airwaves, on workplace safety, on the vehicle you drive? You don't want national defense? You don't want ANY of that?


Originally posted by Ahabstar
Hmmm....How about this? Issue a card when you fill out your W-2 or your business licenses for self-employment.


So, I take it to mean that you want it simplified? I totally agree with you there. Why the law has to be written so that even the most educated and intelligent among us has a hard time deciphering it is beyond me.

I like your plan. My husband suggests an even simpler one. A very low "tax" on every dollar that changes hands (2 cents). For that, any person lawfully present could go to any doctor they choose and pay a minimum co-pay ($5-10).



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