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What Do Republicans Want? - A Real Question

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posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 07:15 PM
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What Do Republicans Want? - A Real Question

What do Republicans want in the Health Insurance Reform Plan regarding illegal immigrants?

I’ve read a lot about the desire to stop the bill BECAUSE of this issue. So, my question is, “What do you want to see in the bill that would address the illegal immigrants situation”? I realize the RESULT you want is for illegal immigrants NOT to be able to buy health insurance under the Plan (and I agree), but what I’m asking is how can we achieve that goal?

As I see it, we would have to add regulations or procedures in the bill that would insure that ONLY legal citizens can buy insurance under this plan. Right? Like checking applicants’ citizenship to qualify for participation in the plan. Someone who couldn’t provide proof of citizenship would be denied the right to buy into the plan.

Are federal regulations and procedures usually included in a bill? I would think that Congress writes a bill that becomes law and then someone (a committee?) writes implementations, regulations and procedures associated with that law.

Here’s a simple example.

This is the Law Enforcement Officers Flag Memorial Act, that provides that a US flag be flown over the Capitol in honor of deceased law enforcement officers whose family requests such.

Now, how is this implemented? How do we know these people who request such actually had an enforcement officer in their family die in the line of duty? Well, they're going to have to prove it. But the procedure for proving it is NOT included in the bill.



(b) Procedure.--Not later than 180 days after the date of enactment
of this Act, the Attorney General shall establish a procedure
(including any appropriate forms) by which the family of a deceased law
enforcement officer may request, and provide sufficient information to
determine such officer's eligibility
for, a Capitol-flown flag.


So, the procedure for determining eligibility is not included in the bill, it is written by the AG at a later date.

I don't know what the final health bill will look like, but The Bill I have bookmarked mentions "procedure" 28 times.

On page 69:



"(1) RULE FOR ELIGIBILITY DETERMINA-
5 TIONS.—The Secretary shall, by regulation, establish
6 rules and procedures for—
...
"(B) making determinations with respect
12 to the eligibility of individuals submitting appli-
13 cations under subparagraph (A) for payments
14 under this section and informing individuals of
15 such determinations;


On page 100:



"(2) ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL.—The term 'eligible
13 individual' means an individual who is—
14 "(A) a citizen or national of the United
15 States or an alien lawfully admitted to the
16 United States for permanent residence or an
17 alien lawfully present in the United States;
18 "(B) a qualified individual;
19 "(C) enrolled in a qualified health plan;
20 and
21 "(D) not receiving full benefits coverage
22 under a State child health plan under title XXI
23 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1397aa et
24 seq.) (or a waiver of such plan).


Additionally:



21 "(g) No FEDERAL FUNDING.—Nothing in this Act
22 shall allow Federal payments for individuals who are not
23 lawfully present in the United States.
...
ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL.—The term 'eligible
13 individual' means an individual who is—
14 "(A) a citizen or national of the United
15 States or an alien lawfully admitted to the
16 United States for permanent residence or an
17 alien lawfully present in the United States;


Now, the procedure for how eligibility is to be determined is not included in the bill, but apparently will be established by the appropriate entity.

If I have misunderstood what Republicans want to be in the bill, please let me know.




posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 07:28 PM
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You wont find many people who identify themselves as republicans, the republicans "left" the conservatives long ago.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Remixtup
You wont find many people who identify themselves as republicans, the republicans "left" the conservatives long ago.


Good one!

As long as they PAY for it, I don't see a problem. The issue I think is they will be getting it for FREE!

I think we get rid of all forms of governmental welfare except for extreme cases. Then if an illegal still wanted to become legal, pay taxes like the rest of the citizens (well in theory) then yes they could by into a health insurance plan the government has brought the cost of down by enacting tort reform, allowing primary care physicians and even hospitals to sell their own insurance policies, allowing interstate plan purchasing, etc. The really funny thing that the democrats don't seem to grasp is the insurance companies are in bed with the politicians promoting healthcare reform HOPING they will not be hurt by it. There will not be any relinquishing of monopolies, etc, They are all there hoping to be the company that BECOMES the government healthcare company.

The free market works when the only function government plays is preventing fraud. We have a govitalist (government controlled capitalism) system right now where only the biggest survive because they get preferential laws enacted from the corrupt politicans. Of course this makes things worse and the the libs cry foul on capitalism creating more govitalism until it becomes fascism. Capitalists and capitalism, while having faults, do not create the problems we see. And don't try to tell me about the "capitalist wall street guys" scamming everyone. You're right they do scam, but they wouldn't be nearly so efficient at it if they didn't control the politicians. The free market weeds out the much of the corruption if left to work on its own without "help' from the government. I know its hard to believe because we really haven't experienced it in full.

[edit on 11-9-2009 by I_am_Spartacus]

[edit on 11-9-2009 by I_am_Spartacus]

[edit on 11-9-2009 by I_am_Spartacus]

[edit on 11-9-2009 by I_am_Spartacus]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 08:04 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I we gauge it by the multitude of responses the answer becomes clear...



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by I_am_Spartacus
As long as they PAY for it, I don't see a problem. The issue I think is they will be getting it for FREE!


You mean you think illegal immigrants will be covered under this plan to get free health insurance? You think they'll get a card that says they have insurance, even though they cannot prove that they are eligible for the plan?

I don't understand...

I'm not interested in the "libs" vs "repubs" crap. I'm trying to narrow this down so it's not a big argument. I just want some ideas.

So, my question still stands. What would you like to see in the bill that would prevent illegal immigrants from getting free health insurance under this plan? (If that is the concern.)



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 08:42 PM
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If the Democrats want universal healthcare, then let Democrats pay for it.

Let Republicans, or Conservatives not have to pay.

Very simple solution.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I realize the RESULT you want is for illegal immigrants NOT to be able to buy health insurance under the Plan (and I agree), but what I’m asking is how can we achieve that goal?


Easy. Insist on a verification of citizenship, proof of residence, and do a thorough background check on everyone who signs up for ObamaCare.

Presently, NO SUCH LANGUAGE exists in the Congressional legislation. There are no specific restrictions on illegal aliens getting government healthcare, which is why Barack Obama was lying the other night when he said this bill will not cover illegal aliens.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Easy. Insist on a verification of citizenship, proof of residence, and do a thorough background check on everyone who signs up for ObamaCare.


Did you read my post? The bill DOES insist on verification of citizenship. The details of the procedure to do so are to be written if the bill passes.



There are no specific restrictions on illegal aliens getting government healthcare,


Yes there is. It's in my post... On page 100 of the bill. I can write the post, I can't make you read it...



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 08:50 PM
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reply to post by Doc Velocity
 



Easy. Insist on a verification of citizenship, proof of residence, and do a thorough background check on everyone who signs up for ObamaCare.


And if this is passed with such language, do you think people will start complaining because they will have to carry papers around to prove their citizenship status?

You do realize that this will open up a whole new can of worms concerning freedom and having a national ID.

Before long you will have to prove your a citizen just to get into a government building.

Are you sure this is what you are asking for because once it is accepted it will be extended to other areas?

Remember, a social security number was only required for one thing in the beginning. How many places require it now?



[edit on 11-9-2009 by jam321]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Did you read my post?


Oh, yes. And I read it when it first became available on the Internet, too. But this merely gives a definition of who is eligible. That doesn't mean anything. I want to see that the procedures for verifying citizenship are in this bill up front, not added later.

Why do you think the Congressional Democrats laughed out loud when Obama smirked about "details that need to be ironed out"? Why was that humorous to them, I wonder?

It's because there's no verbiage about enforcement.

Congress has a solid and sorry track record for writing intentionally ambiguous and misleading legislation that is never enforced. Gee, wonder whatever happened to the U.S./Mexico border fence and increased border patrols? Same crap as happened after the "immigration reform" of the 1980s... NO ENFORCEMENT because enforcement wasn't specifically worded into the act.


— Doc Velocity





[edit on 9/11/2009 by Doc Velocity]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by I_am_Spartacus
As long as they PAY for it, I don't see a problem. The issue I think is they will be getting it for FREE!


You mean you think illegal immigrants will be covered under this plan to get free health insurance? You think they'll get a card that says they have insurance, even though they cannot prove that they are eligible for the plan?

I don't understand...

I'm not interested in the "libs" vs "repubs" crap. I'm trying to narrow this down so it's not a big argument. I just want some ideas.

So, my question still stands. What would you like to see in the bill that would prevent illegal immigrants from getting free health insurance under this plan? (If that is the concern.)





omission conveys inclusion, its a favorite tactic. They are not specifically excluded so they will be included



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by jam321
And if this is passed with such language, do you think people will start complaining because they will have to carry papers around to prove their citizenship status?


Don't know where you've been for the last 60 years, but we already are required to carry "papers" around for identification, in the form of drivers licenses, social security cards, insurance cards, etc. These "papers" prove that we are qualified to exercise the privileges to drive, receive government assistance, and are responsible enough to cover damages to other people's property.

Why is it an infringement on our freedom to demand that everyone who wants to go on U.S. government assistance should be documented as a U.S. citizen?

— Doc Velocity



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
If the Democrats want universal healthcare, then let Democrats pay for it.

Let Republicans, or Conservatives not have to pay.

Very simple solution.



YOU WON!

There is not going to be any universal healthcare -

There is not going to even be a public option - Trigger = Dead

You won don't you guys get it? the horse is dead...



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by I_am_Spartacus


omission conveys inclusion, its a favorite tactic. They are not specifically excluded so they will be included


What part of



"(2) ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL.—The term 'eligible
13 individual' means an individual who is—
14 "(A) a citizen or national of the United
15 States or an alien lawfully admitted to the
16 United States for permanent residence or an
17 alien lawfully present in the United States;


do you not understand?

Where is the omission? It clearly states that you must be a lawful citizen to be eligible for the plan. There is no gray area, the wording is black and white.



Now, I know this is going to be a terribly unpopular thing to say, but I am nothing if not a realist.

Illegal immigrants are human beings just like the rest of us. Whether or not you feel they 'deserve' healthcare (not surprising as many people on this site don't even think less fortunate Americans deserve heatlhcare), they will get sick, and they will get injured.

What do you think will happen then? They will go back to Mexico (or their country of origin) to seek medical attention? They will sit in their homes and slowly die, leaving their families behind?

Of course not, they will go to the emergency room, as they have been doing for years now. They will not pay their bills, and in the long run taxpayers will foot the bill. Wouldn't it make sense to include illegal immigrants in the bill, in some form, to save taxpayer money and free up emergency rooms? It would seem like a win-win. Of course its not a perfect solution, but it is probably the best solution, both for the immigrants and for taxpaying citizens.

The way I see it, there are three options for dealing with illegal immigrants' healthcare:

1. We uphold the status quo. Illegal immigrants are unable to seek preventative care, so they almost exclusively use the emergency room. This ties up ER services from treating actual emergencies, and ends up costing hospitals an enormous amount of money which in turn burdens the taxpayers.

2. We change the laws and force emergency rooms to stop helping illegal immigrants altogether, and they die in the streets. (If you actually believe this to be an equitable solution, I would suggest that you don't deserve to call yourself a human being).

3. We figure out some method of providing illegal immigrants with health coverage, so that they can seek preventative care and explore other forms of medical attention outside of simply flooding the ER's. This cost will be carried by taxpayers, of course, but ultimately at a smaller cost than we are already paying for the current ER usage.

I'm just spitballing here, if anyone has a better idea I'd love to hear it. None of this really matters, as the bill being proposed by Obama upholds the current status quo anyway. Illegal immigrants will not receive any form of health coverage, the wording in the bill is very clear on that. They will continue to use the ER, it will cause inconveniences and probably medical complications for taxpayers seeking to use the ER, and it will cost us more money in the long run.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:29 PM
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I am registered Republican, but I do not always side with Republican choices.

With that said, I absolutely do not think we as the United States should pay for the health care of those who are not legally here. So, what do we do when an illegal ends up in the hospital or need of care? How about we treat them, send them to their home country and bill their country of origin for medical care and cost of transporting them home. And when their country of origin does not pay up within a certain amount of time, bill them again and add interest. Keep doing it until they pay up.

I see no other solution. Legal citizens should not pay for illegals. No way. However, I also do not want some illegal with some illness or disease walking around our streets untreated because no hospital or doctor will see them. It is not safe for the rest of us. Nor do I want them to physically suffer. Im not that cold hearted. But someone needs to pay for it all - and it should be their country - not ours.

How do we proove that the patient is legal or illegal? Proper identification. I know everyone hates the real ID - but seems that in this case, it is necessary. Until people learn how to make fakes ones


Will it work? Eh, I do not know. It is just a logical idea I came up with.


[edit on September 11th 2009 by greeneyedleo]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:29 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I realize the RESULT you want is for illegal immigrants NOT to be able to buy health insurance under the Plan (and I agree), but what I’m asking is how can we achieve that goal?


Easy. Insist on a verification of citizenship, proof of residence, and do a thorough background check on everyone who signs up for ObamaCare.

Presently, NO SUCH LANGUAGE exists in the Congressional legislation. There are no specific restrictions on illegal aliens getting government healthcare, which is why Barack Obama was lying the other night when he said this bill will not cover illegal aliens.

— Doc Velocity


Well first of all the "PUBLIC OPTION" would only be available to people who are legally employed and paying payroll taxes and their company does not offer ANY HEALTHCARE.

In order to be legally employed and all that entails...

Anyhow a triggered public option means you guys won -
There is a trigger on importing drugs from around the world, hows that working.


Go celebrate, the implications are clear



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:32 PM
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reply to post by Doc Velocity
 



These "papers" prove that we are qualified to exercise the privileges to drive, receive government assistance, and are responsible enough to cover damages to other people's property.


Yes, and these papers can also be falsified. Do these papers prove citizenship in your eyes? If they do then people should get off Obama's back about not being a citizen. He has a driver license and social security card as well as many illegals who aren't citizens.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:35 PM
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reply to post by Doc Velocity
 


Though I agree with your stance, that is impossible to force. All of those documents are easily faked. Although the real ID scares most people, at the end of the day, it seems the only identification that may work in cases such as this. Eventually someone will figure a way to make fake ones.....but what other solution do we have to ensure that people are who they say they are?



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by greeneyedleo

How do we proove that the patient is legal or illegal? Proper identification. I know everyone hates the real ID - but seems that in this case, it is necessary. Until people learn how to make fakes ones


[edit on September 11th 2009 by greeneyedleo]


Well GEL

The public option is effectively dead - Obama's folks are talking about a trigger, has traditionally been a way to give up with out stating so.

Second, provided there was a public option, it would be issued thru employment in a company that does not provide any options. Therefore a person would have to be legally employed, paying taxes in order to contribute to the system and be awarded coverage.

It is NOT an option for anyone, the requirements are very narrow and strict.

One would need an established SSN that was being used in that place of employment.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by drwizardphd
What part of (2) ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL do you not understand?


What part of illegal alien do you not understand? Everyday in this country, federal laws go unenforced, particularly those laws designed to prevent illegal aliens from burdening our system.

Look, WE ALREADY KNOW that the U.S. Congress is working to grant amnesty to illegal aliens — approximately 12 million Mexican illegal aliens, specifically. Whoever grants that amnesty and gives these 12 million illegals instant U.S. citizenship is going to instantly gain 12 million voters for their side.

That's just the fact. That's why Immigration Reform was so hotly debated and defeated twice by public outcry.

Both Republicans and Democrats are still working for that amnesty. That's why our immigration laws are going unenforced, that's why our INS agents are being told to stand down. Congress WANTS this illegal alien population, and they want it badly.

Now, all Congress has to do is pass this jerry-rigged healthcare legislation on a fast-track, and then rush through their immigration reform amnesty before next November of 2010, and the Democrats will have 12 million brand new and very grateful American citizens all geared up to go on government healthcare assistance.

Sound far-fetched? I don't think so.

— Doc Velocity




[edit on 9/11/2009 by Doc Velocity]



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