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Atheist Extremism, at it again.

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posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by john124
 


I think you missed the point. People have been killed for atheism. Purges have happend for atheistic ideals. Qualify it all you wish. Use assumptive detours all you wish. Doesn't change the fact.

[edit on 13-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


Hmmm, not with modern day athiesm: that is a general disbelief in god, without worshipping any such entity, where these 18th century labelled athiests did worship an entity!

The point of this thread was to highlight modern day athiest extremism, so your point was entirely moot anyway. So I thought I'd highlight other important factors as well, which are more applicable to the OP than your 18th century example.

If we look back so far in history people die for almost anything; so whether under the guise of athiesm in the 18th century, or for supporting the wrong football team - yes people die in numbers for all sorts of commitments, but never in the numbers people die because of religious differences.

There are no examples of modern day athiesm being extremist at all!

Modern day examples of religious extremism - I'm sure you don't need me to write a list!

One could legitimately say that if religions didn't exist then athiests wouldn't need to be labelled either, and so all problems stem from religious beliefs in the first place! Similarly to falsely blaming the non-believers of spaghetti monsters for not believing, when the believers created the mess!


[edit on 13-9-2009 by john124]




posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by john124
 


*face palm* I hate to tell you that being a atheist does not cancel out human nature and as you weakly attempted to point out while qualifying it to pretend atheists are somehow made magically docile and unable to commit violence in the name of their beliefs you hit on it. If the conditions are right mankind will kill for just about anything.



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by john124
 


*face palm* I hate to tell you that being a atheist does not cancel out human nature and as you weakly attempted to point out while qualifying it to pretend atheists are somehow made magically docile and unable to commit violence in the name of their beliefs you hit on it. If the conditions are right mankind will kill for just about anything.


There's no evidence of modern day athiests killing others because of their own disbelief in god. Yes athiests will kill others for alternate reasons, there's no doubt about that. Seemingly you will believe that athiests kill because of their dis-belief, which is unfounded! People kill for beliefs, but not for their dis-beliefs!

As you say yourself: people will kill for almost anything in the right conditions, but I'd like to add that some religious people almost anything in any conditions. Athiesm is not a belief, so people don't kill in the name of athiesm.

If the spaghetti monster disbeliever killed the spaghetti monster believer, because the believer was being annoying, we don't say he killed because he disbelieved the believer. He killed because he was extreme, intolerant & possibly violent, not because he dis-believed in the spaghetti monster. If the believer were to threaten the dis-believer beforehand, then he would also be extreme.

Any analogy with faith-based beliefs can apply.

[edit on 13-9-2009 by john124]



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 10:46 PM
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reply to post by john124
 


Sure is a belief hate to tell you. But I know the rhetoric so spare me the speech please.



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by john124
 


Sure is a belief hate to tell you. But I know the rhetoric so spare me the speech please.


No, actually this is the definition of athiesm:


"Atheism can be either the rejection of theism,[1] or the position that deities do not exist.[2] In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.[3]"


A rejection of somebody else's beliefs is not a belief in itself. Much in the way that anyone who rejects the spaghetti monster beliefs, is neither a belief.

But there's the mindset of religious people with their little black and white ideals; where there's only right and wrong faiths, usually themselves being right and everybody else wrong!

You don't require any beliefs to reject somebody else's beliefs; you only need rational & logical thinking.

Did anybody actually claim god doesn't exist, before somebody claimed god existed? Athiesm is not a belief, only a rejection of somebody's ideas!

[edit on 13-9-2009 by john124]



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 11:13 PM
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reply to post by john124
 


How did I know you wouldn't be able to resist... Ah well kinda should have figured as such from those seeking to justify themselves.... I guess I shall go ahead and dive into your semantic argument.
I prefer merriam-webster for my definitions, not wikipedia.

Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1 archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

SOURCE:www.merriam-webster.com...

Ah, but you do offer another belief in the place of those beliefs you reject friend. The belief that there is no higher power/god/deity/whatever.



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by john124
 


Ah, but you do offer another belief in the place of those beliefs you reject friend. The belief that there is no higher power/god/deity/whatever.


Yeah you're right, we all believe that an infinite number of possibilies, like spaghetti monsters, baked beans monsters, etc all cannot exist because we all have nothing better to do with our time!

The arrogance of religious persons to assume that their owns beliefs are so important that we "must" treat them as a "special" case is quite frankly pathetic.

One thing you fail to take into consideration - you can't associate all non-beliefs or rejections as beliefs, and certainly not athiesm.

Richard Dawkins says "god probably does not exist". Athiests don't make claims or have beliefs that god definitely cannot exist. Neither does science. Both scientists and athiests would accept that god existed, if the evidence indicated significantly to provide proof, but unfortunately for all the believers, it does not!

Whatever alternate beliefs that an athiest may have is irrelevant to determine if he/she is an athiest, providing those alternate beliefs do not involve a diety, otherwise they would be a theist anyway.

Use of scientific evidence to back up claims which contradict religious beliefs in whatever way, are definitely not forms of belief!

From your limited perspective about athiesm, if you refuse to use critical thinking, then it will feel like it's a belief, but it is not!

We do not have to believe anything to choose to reject somebody's apparent grand or ungrand ideas about the world.


[edit on 13-9-2009 by john124]



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 11:47 PM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


You have a belief that my non-belief in god must constitues a belief, nothing more friend!



posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by john124
 


And he starts quoting Dawkins...............
Tis not I whom is not using critical thinking skills. Especially in view of the fact I am not trying to defend a belief that I claim is not a belief. And are you done with the constant over used cliches yet?



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by john124
 


And he starts quoting Dawkins...............
Tis not I whom is not using critical thinking skills. Especially in view of the fact I am not trying to defend a belief that I claim is not a belief. And are you done with the constant over used cliches yet?


Firstly, your 18th century example of athiest extremism is moot, as modern day athiests "do not" worship in temples. Secondly, the OP is talking about the present day.


Then you rattle on about athiesm requiring a belief, which can only mean that I or other athiests should treat religions as anything more than another spaghetti monster, which is uttely absurd!

I quoted Dawkin's as an example that fits the premise, you know.... a logical statement with evidence. That's how to be logical and scientific.

I'm simply stating that there's no pre-requisite in terms of any belief, to disregard somebody else's beliefs. I didn't say that every athiest will not have their own beliefs, only that they don't have to believe in anything to be an athiest. It's only a matter of disregarding somebody else's beliefs.

Regarding a scientific approach as a belief system ist utterly moronic to the highest standard possible!


This is all quite a simple concept, that can only be explained in one way, and some things need repeating to the ignorant! Do you think you can manage to understand this concept!?

[edit on 14-9-2009 by john124]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 12:14 AM
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reply to post by john124
 


It's not a matter of disregarding another's beliefs. I refer you back to the definition.



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by john124
 


It's not a matter of disregarding another's beliefs. I refer you back to the definition.


So first of all, religious people tell athiests that we should believe in god, and secondly, that we must have a belief system to contradict their own, should we disagree.
No wonder the world has gone to pot!

Who are "they" to tell me what I must believe, to disregard their beliefs as true.

Religions are not a special case of faith, they are no more substancial than a flying tortoise from outer space crapping out earthlings in 7 days theory!

I disregard religions on the basis of no evidence equals no proof, and I do not consider faith-based opinions to to be evidence, and I chose not to use faith-based thinking myself.


[edit on 14-9-2009 by john124]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 12:29 AM
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reply to post by john124
 


Ah, so a belief is only constituted when a person is evangellical about it?
And while we are at it "faith" is something you have. Albeit not in the existance of a higher power errr whatever. But I know why atheists tend to convince themselves otherwise. Rather like why they take religion, organized religion and spirituality smoosh them together then call it religion......

Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: \ˈfāth\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
Date: 13th century
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

synonyms see belief

— on faith : without question

SOURCE:www.merriam-webster.com...

And now, belief:

Main Entry: be·lief
Pronunciation: \bə-ˈlēf\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelēafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lēafa; akin to Old English lȳfan — more at believe
Date: 12th century
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

synonyms belief, faith, credence, credit mean assent to the truth of something offered for acceptance. belief may or may not imply certitude in the believer . faith almost always implies certitude even where there is no evidence or proof . credence suggests intellectual assent without implying anything about grounds for assent . credit may imply assent on grounds other than direct proof .
synonyms see in addition opinion

SOURCE:www.merriam-webster.com...

But of course by all means believe what you wish but lay off the semantic gymnastics to justify and pretend your better than others.



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by bettermakings

Christian Extremism is a potential threat, but is relatively small. Sure, 400 years ago it was the biggest threat in the world, but not really anymore. Maybe in Jamaica where they lynch homosexuals.



Any religion in it's extreme is a problem.

Anytime a school of thought inspires you to feel you are superior than another, then you are in a cult.

It doesn't matter if it leads to death or gossip.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 12:37 AM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


You fail to realise that you're were discussing a non-belief in god as an asserted belief that god cannot exist. Not the semantics of belief or faith.

en.wikipedia.org...


Nontheism is a term that covers a range of both religious and nonreligious attitudes characterized by the absence of — or the rejection of — theism or any belief in a personal god or gods

"Strong atheism" is the positive belief that a god does not exist. Someone who does not think about the existence of a deity may be termed "weakly atheistic", or more specifically implicitly atheist.

"Strong" or "positive" agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible for humans to know whether or not any deities exist. It is a more precise opinion than weak agnosticism, which is the belief that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is unknown but not necessarily unknowable. Philosopher Anthony Kenny distinguishes between agnostics, who find the claim "God exists" uncertain, and theological noncognitivists, who consider all God-talk to be meaningless.[1]


It's much more complicated than you seem to perceive, but I'm sure you're really good at oversimplifying people because they don't fit into your own little reality.

An implicit atheist does not give a # about theist beliefs to even consider it worth a moments thought. Light that in your pipe and smoke it!

On the contrary, my views do not accuse inferiority of others, and I do not impose any belief on anyone in a self-righteous manner which religious people often do!

[edit on 14-9-2009 by john124]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by john124
 


What you fail to realize is that the entirety of human consciousness is made of nothing but beliefs. Read your existentialism.

it doesn't have to be a belief in a system. Everyone believes... the question is what do they believe. Now they could believe that they believe nothing, but that's still a belief.

There is no knowledge... only beliefs.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 12:49 AM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by john124
 


I disagree that there's no knowledge, although I agree that we all believe to some extent, or that we believe learning and accumulating knowledge will be useful. But the results of doing so has told us many times over that's it's useful! Your computer or mobile phone working as expected is only one result of that!

That's not the same as faith, where you often are waiting seemingly forever for positive results, providing the believer is being honest with himself/herself, and doesn't live in a delusional state. This seemingly positive result has to be measurable both quantitatively and qualitatively.

Knowledge accumulation thru' science is in essence enlightenment, and the only methodoloy that ideas & theories can ever become proven fact! It makes perfect sense to associate spirituality with enlightenment, therefore spiritual answers have to lie with science in the future, along with the scientific, technological, (astro)biological, environmental and cosmological discoveries, and not with made up stories based on faith.

Anyway to be an athiest by definition, doesn't require any beliefs, and that's what the recent posts were meant to explain.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by john124]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 12:58 AM
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An anti-abortion protester was killed but no where does it say that the man's lack of belief in the supernational triggered his killing spree.

If a Muslim kills a Christian, that doesn't imply that it was because the Christian doesn't believe in Mohammad; all that it means is that the murderer happens to be Muslim and the victim happens to be Christian.

This guy also killed other people, seemingly at random, if one of them doesn't drink coffee does that mean he has it in for non-coffee drinkers? He's clearly disturbed. A guy standing on the road with a sign would be an easy target for someone looking to kill as many people as convenient.

This thread is sad in a way, seriously, basically you're taking a story where people have lost their lives and attempting to use it to make all the religiously motivated murders of abortion providers seem more legitimate or detract from them. Not very Christian like.



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 01:01 AM
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reply to post by john124
 


And your not paying attention.................... You believe there is no god. That is a belief I hate to tell you.



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by john124
 


And your not paying attention.................... You believe there is no god. That is a belief I hate to tell you.


Erm... NO!! Not any more than I have to choose not to believe in spaghetti monsters.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by john124]



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