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WW3 over sports?

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posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 01:50 PM
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news.bbc.co.uk...

"South African officials have stepped up their defence of Caster Semenya, warning of a "third world war" if the row over her sex stops her competing."

Not that I believe this is an actual threat or anything, but is this really where our world is? WW3 about sporting events?

I understand the SA wanting to protect it's citizen, especially when its a matter of national pride, but just cannot comprehend being willing to plunge into a world war over it.

[edit on 11-9-2009 by captaintyinknots]




posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 01:54 PM
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Well, it was just determined that "she" is actually a hermaphrodite. I dont really think that "she" should be allowed to compete against normal women. That would give her an unfair advantage, dont you think?



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


South Africa can threaten war? I think they mean WW3 in the figurative sense, not literal.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by PokeyJoe
Well, it was just determined that "she" is actually a hermaphrodite. I dont really think that "she" should be allowed to compete against normal women. That would give her an unfair advantage, dont you think?


Let's see... you either have testes or you don't, internal or not.

She's a man.

That didn't sound right.



Edited to correct an inconsistency noted a couple posts down*

[edit on 11-9-2009 by lernmore]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by pluckynoonez
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


South Africa can threaten war? I think they mean WW3 in the figurative sense, not literal.


agree
2nd line



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by pluckynoonez
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


South Africa can threaten war? I think they mean WW3 in the figurative sense, not literal.



I agree, South Africa did have a nuclear weapon program but they claim to have dismantled it.

South African WMDs

If she has testicles I don't think she should be allowed to compete. Would be unfair if she is producing large mounts of testosterone.


Edit to add:


In Semenya’s case, the Australian report says she has no ovaries and instead has internal testes, which produce large amounts of testosterone, explaining her muscular physique. It’s likely she and her family may have been unaware of the condition because the male organs are on the inside. In many cases of the intersexed condition, the external genitalia appear to be female.


Source

[edit on 11-9-2009 by lucentenigma]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by lernmore

Originally posted by PokeyJoe
Well, it was just determined that "she" is actually a hermaphrodite. I dont really think that "she" should be allowed to compete against normal women. That would give her an unfair advantage, dont you think?


Let's see... you either have a pe*is or you don't.

She's a man.

That didn't sound right.

But she doesn't. She has internal testies. So by your definition, she is a woman.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:33 PM
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South Africa can't even feed itself, let alone wage a war. Surely they meant it would be a third world war, not the third world war.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:38 PM
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More fascinating is that a mere 15 years ago, when apartheid was still in force, it would have been doubtful that the South African government to have allowed Semenya to even compete on the same track as whites. Let alone defended Semenya in the court of international opinion.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by pluckynoonez
 


Hi plucky,

I was going to respond to your post but I got distracted. At any rate, call me a sadist but I'd like to see South Africa play their WWIII card.

So no, the he/she can't win. So what now? WWIII?

They must be shivering in Antarctica.


Obviously, this is a figure of speech. Still, what's their figure-of-speech-WWIII card?

Silly aside, I think it comes down to how male she really is? More male on the outside? More male on the inside? Don't they go by the inside?

I really don't know. Not the sort of thing I keep on my radar. Ever.

So if you have both sex organs on the outside (a curious thought in a very weird way), I suppose that would add a whole new level to maste.....hhmmm. Nevermind.

[edit on 9/11/2009 by Genfinity]



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:42 PM
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Just for the public humiliation she has suffered after such an amazing accomplishment, I think she should be allowed to compete as a female.

Even if she did know that she was one of that 1% of people born with gender ambiguity and was raised female all of her life, do you think she wanted World+Dog to know the intimacies about her genitalia?

How would any of us like it if World+Dog started smearing us because we have a partial third testicle, giving us an "unfair" advantage, or spreading it all over the MSM that you have elephantiasis of the testicular region and thus an "unfair" advantage?

For the embarrassment and humiliation she has been put through, I think she deserves a formal apology as well as a pass, because frankly it's no ones gosh-darn business whether she has an "Innie" or an "Outtie".

Now if she were Transgendered, it still wouldn't be anyone's business, although there may be a better argument about it being "unfair" to compete as a woman.

1% of people born with gender ambiguity doesn't quite make for a 3rd gender that can have separate sports teams and leagues and qualifying events.

So, let her play as a woman. To be honest, we shouldn't have separate competitions for men and women any way. It's only a matter of time before people get past gender stereotypes and learn that it is not the physical body that determines one's performance in physical sports, but one's mind and the belief that they can perform as well (or better) than another. The physical body, let alone gender, doesn't give as much of a performance advantage as one might like to believe.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by burdman30ott6
More fascinating is that a mere 15 years ago, when apartheid was still in force, it would have been doubtful that the South African government to have allowed Semenya to even compete on the same track as whites. Let alone defended Semenya in the court of international opinion.


Slap me if I'm off target here but... are you subtly trying to score this as a win for civil rights?

Anyway I think she should be allowed to remain living life as a woman. But it's doubtful many people will easily agree from every other team, therefore she will likely be shut out, in which case, South Africa unleashes their secret weapon 20 years in the making....





PRAWN SOLDIERS



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:47 PM
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They should test her levels of testosterone. If He/she is way above the average for a female her age, she/he should not be allowed to compete any more than a genuine female who takes synthetic testosterone to gain an advantage.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:48 PM
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The disgusting publicity-hound ex-Ms.Mandela has sunk her fangs into the issue and is grandstanding the way she did before being jailed for her involvement in the murder of young boys by encasing them in petrol-filled car-tyres and burning them alive

therefore, the entire South African 'protest' over the testes-endowed Caster is even more distasteful than would anyway be the case

They KNEW Caster was not a typical female athlete LONG before the recent games

Her parents and siblings KNEW Caster chose to dress and conduct herself as a boy for YEARS before this latest nonsensical bluff by South Africa

The UK media reported weeks ago that Caster's coaches fully EXPECTED her to be questioned by the public, other athletes and the games-administrators

Attempts by South Africa (and the ghastly Mandela) to blame 'racism' and 'discrimination' are being regarded with worldwide disgust

After all ... the majority of Caster's fellow-competitors were ALSO black and would rise in the rankings, were Caster to be stripped of medals and placings

SA threatening a third world war ? Why do they insist on embarrassing themselves this way and demonstrating their appalling low IQ ?



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by BaronVonGodzilla
Slap me if I'm off target here but... are you subtly trying to score this as a win for civil rights?


No, not really. It just popped into my head that prior to the end of apartheid, (s)he this wouldn't have even reached this point because they most likely wouldn't have put a black runner into international competition. I don't know that for a fact and, honestly, I'm not that inclined to look up S.A.'s historical representatives in international athletic competition to see if they did field many blacks (I'm guessing they did, but probably not in any proportion representative of their population demographics as compared to causcasians.)

Not a win for civil rights, just an indication of how dramatically different the South African government of today is from the South African government of 15 years ago.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by fraterormus
 



Have you seen the photos of Caster whilst at high school ?

Have you seen Caster wearing the boy's uniform of shirt, tie and pants, because he/she INSISTED on wearing a boy's uniform and REFUSED, life-long, to wear girls' clothing ?

Are you aware that Caster was removed from girls' football teams because not only did other schools regard him/her as a boy -- he/she was way too large and strong to be allowed to play sports against girls

Are you aware that Caster played on the boys' football team, but the ambiguity over his/her gender caused so many problems that he/she was prevented from continuing, after which he/she turned to track and field ?

Have you seen Caster's muscle development ? It's pretty obvious that's no girl

Are you aware that Caster does NOT have a womb or ovaries ? How then can Caster possibly be regarded as physically female ?

Clearly you are aware that Caster has undescended testes, testes which are producing 3 x times or more the amount of testosterone found in any biologically-female athlete

And how can you complain about the 'humiliation' suffered by Caster when for years, his/her school was required to take Caster's birth certificate along whenever Caster was involved in inter-school sports -- when her father stated weeks ago that Caster has never behaved 'like a girl' ?

The South African IOC were fully aware of the situation, before this controversy erupted. They KNEW the situation. Yet they entered Caster in competition against women

Yes, many people are born with confusing external gender. And that's all it was with Caster.

South Africa AND Caster are fully to blame for what's transpired.

Caster KNEW she'd never menstruated. And of course, how COULD Caster menstruate when he/she has NO ovaries or womb ?

Instead, Caster has male muscle development and features, in line with his/her undescended testes

If ANYone is to blame for this fiasco (and the effects it's had on OTHER athletes who were 'beaten' by the testes-possessing Caster) it's the South African authorities who attempted to pass Caster off as 'a manly looking woman' ... and planned the 'we're so humiliated, this is racial discrimination' ploy if the Olympic Committee investigated Caster.

Put the blame where it belongs: on Caster and on the South African authorities.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by St Vaast
Instead, Caster has male muscle development and features, in line with his/her undescended testes


Every so often you get the opportunity to cross something off your life-long "Sentences I Never Thought I'd Hear or Read" list. The above quote just was scratched off my list.



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 03:24 PM
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'She wouldn't wear dresses and sounds like a man on the phone': Caster Semenya's father on his sex-riddle daughter

On the first day of school, all the girls were proud of their new uniforms. In their smart, neatly pressed yellow blouses and red dresses, they stepped through the rubbish-strewn alleys of an African township and made their way to report for their high school education.

Like young girls the world over, the new pupils chatted and laughed as they made their way to class, s'n-word'ing and nudging each other when they walked past groups of boy students.

But one girl did not share this liking for dresses, giggling and gossip.
Already tall and brawny at 11-years-old, with a strangely gruff voice, this student did not stand out simply on account of her striking physique

No, what really set her apart from her fellow female pupils was the fact that she always preferred to dress as a boy.

That is not all. This girl student was also 'rough' and preferred playing - and fighting - with boys. Indeed, even as a baby, she had kept clear of any 'girly games' such as dolls or dressing up.

Instead, she liked football, karate, wrestling and rough and tumble with other male school friends. She was also big enough and tough enough to ensure nobody criticised these activities to her face.



See PHOTO of Caster in the boy's clothing he/she insisted on wearing

plust rest of article DATED 22 AUGUST (long before this latest wail by South Africa) at link below:

www.dailymail.co.uk... ml



posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by St Vaast
Have you seen Caster's muscle development ? It's pretty obvious that's no girl


Obviously you haven't seen Eastern European Female Athletes or American Female Body Builders. Their muscle development makes Caster look like a wimpy, girlie, lipstick-lesbian by comparison!


Just because her arms are more strapped than my male arms are, doesn't amount to much. But then again, I'll concede that I'm a "girlie-man" (as the Governator would say) and even though I'm definitely XX and not XXY, I produce far less Testosterone than the majority of XY females. Besides, I've dated 90lb Red-headed waifs with arms the size of straws that could level a 300lb Weight-Lifter. Physical Size or the amount of muscles (or body mass, or Testosterone levels) doesn't indicate any kind of physical advantage.


Originally posted by St Vaast
Are you aware that Caster does NOT have a womb or ovaries ? How then can Caster possibly be regarded as physically female ?


She has female genitalia on the outside. It doesn't really matter what's on the inside (although I understand that saying such is contrary to what we tell everyone about physically unattractive people)...but as far as Gender goes, it's what's on the outside that counts.


Originally posted by St Vaast
Have you seen Caster wearing the boy's uniform of shirt, tie and pants, because he/she INSISTED on wearing a boy's uniform and REFUSED, life-long, to wear girls' clothing ?

And how can you complain about the 'humiliation' suffered by Caster when for years, his/her school was required to take Caster's birth certificate along whenever Caster was involved in inter-school sports -- when her father stated weeks ago that Caster has never behaved 'like a girl' ?


If there was a history of Caster being male and raised as a male, then I think you would be absolutely correct. If Caster had been raised male all of her life then she would have been a he and should have been treated as such as far as competitive sports.

However, I wasn't able to find any of the things you mentioned via Google (although I concede that you seem to be better read about this than I am).

Actually, the IAAF was quoted as saying that they do not believe there was any deception taking place as to her gender, but are interested on whether or not her Gender differences give her an unfair advantage. So, it doesn't sound like they have seen any evidence that you have mentioned either.

All the articles I have seen say that:



According to her mother, grandmother, headmaster and friends Semenya was raised as a girl, lives like a woman and competes like one.


Although I think this whole situation brings up a valuable point of what makes Gender. Is it what they are declared at birth? Is it how someone was raised? Is it their external Genitalia? Is it their internal Genitalia? Is it their Genetics? Or is Gender a "Lifestyle" choice? (As many Transexuals and Transgenders would insist)

What do we do about XXY and XXYY Males? They have Testosterone levels lower than Females, yet they have the Genitalia of a Man both inside and out! Should they be allowed to compete as Women (because they are still going to have a Testosterone handicap compared to their Female Competitors, but not as much of a handicap had they competed against Male Competitors)?

Now that more Transexuals and Transgenders are becoming more accepted, how do we handle them in competitive sports? Do you treat them according to what Gender with which they were born, or how they identify themselves, or what Gender they are now post-Operative Surgery?

Ideally, under the premise that all people are created equal, why does the issue of Gender need to come up in Competitive Sports at all? Why not just have one Competition instead of a Men's Competition and a Women's Competition? It might be totally unfair to the first generation of Women who must compete directly against Men, but after 25 years Women would rival Men as equals in Competitive Sports. The reason why is because Testosterone has nothing to do with it...only the mind does!

(Remember when I said that even as an XX Male I have lower Testosterone than the average Woman? Well, I still beat and have held the Male record for the fastest 3000m in my State since I was 11 years old...and although I gave up competitive running when I went to college, my record still stands unbroken. Although my 12 year old daughter hasn't run competitively yet, she can beat even my record and one day will! Believe me, the only people who bring up Testosterone as a competitive edge are sore-losers.)



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Almost all the top female athletes are partially male. Many of them were born male but with faulty sex organs and were surgically altered into female.

We need to stop this "separate but equal" crap and have athletic events open to both sexes. That's extreme but there is no other way.



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