Why pretend race doesn't matter?

Ofcourse there are people who'll never admit they are racists, because they feel they have to be politically correct, for some reason. There are plenty of people who don't give a $%&* about race, and I am one of them. A lot of people here have said they don't care about Obama's race, but that is not what you want to hear and so you simply don't believe us. I don't get what you want out of this topic, are you just arguing for aguments sake?

reply to post by DarknessFollows


You bring up a good point. How many of the people who voted for Obama are racist, and only voted for him out of political correctness?

MLK is rolling in his grave right now. . . .

reply to post by masqua


We can call it racism or tribalism (which I agree is more accurate), but it doesn't matter. I definitely agree with your point, though. Racism makes as much sense as disliking and fearing blond people because they're blond.

reply to post by LordBucket


Thanks for the explanation. I think our challenge is to go beyond the stereotypes that you mentioned. Yes, some of us were either raised or had experiences that caused us to think of black people as _______... fill in the blank. But our challenge (my challenge) is to push our minds to overcome them, not to just accept them. For many of us, it is understandable and reasonable to have these prejudices, yes, but as with the other fantasies that my parents taught me, I feel it is my responsibility to work to remove those false impressions from my brain. And not just accept them as what we were taught.

I was a victim of childhood sexual abuse and was raped at 17 by white men. Yet, I am married to a white man. Maybe it's because the vast majority of white men in my life have been benevolent that I don't hold the same prejudices toward them as you do toward blacks, but there's a particular body type and facial structure of white man that I'm uncomfortable around, so I understand what you mean. I do have my prejudices. Still, I push myself to realize the associations I have made are false. I don't think you're that much different than me. and I think it's wonderful that you've thought about this and understand yourself so well. I wish more did. But I don't think many have gone that deep into their own feelings about it - and they just accept it. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by sr_robert1
You like him because he's black.
I don't like him because he's black.

This is another silly assumption. Racism and prejudice are about having NEGATIVE feelings toward a race (or tribe). And the assumption that people have a "special happy" feeling about a black person because of his (different) race, just doesn't make any sense. I'm glad that this country has made this important step towards ending racism, but that doesn't mean that I voted for him because of his race. Making that assumption is the exact same thing as making the assumption that everyone who didn't vote for him did so because of his race. It's meaningless.

Originally posted by stevegmu
Obama brought it on himself. ...All these black people who cry racism at the drop of a hat are responsible for racist feelings in people who weren't racist before.

And this blames the victim of racism for the racism perpetrated against him. It's beyond my understanding and curiosity.

Even if Obama was white, I'd still have a problem with him in office. But then again, I don't think i've ever liked any politician nor have i cared for anyone in office during my lifetime. They are just the scapegoats for the people who are ruining, i mean running this country from behind the scenes. With that said, why is Obama so special? It's because he is black. How is he different from any other dried up politician out there? He isn't, he is just black that's all. Oh wup dee do, we have a black man in office, it shows how much we are changing in this country!

What a crock, people bought into the media hype of this man and now they are realizing that he is no better than the stale white politicians. This man has backed out of every campaign promise (might not be his choice seeing as he is just a puppet, a mere clown in this whole circus) and what is so great about him? He did nothing spectacular before he was president and he isn't doing much now that tells me he is our "savior". In my opinion, I think Obamas presidency has been designed to fall and to divide the people more and kill their morale even more so.

Originally posted by OldDragger
Anybody that thinks race doesn't matter is either, ignorant of history, too young, or lying.

Race only matters to the exponentially ignorant.

They think that because someone is diffrent from them then they have less humanity. does a Puerto Rican not bleed? Does a Russian love less? Do Asians laugh less?

Please for the love of god think before you type.

I bet there are some people on this board who were pretty upset to see rosa parks or the woolworths gang taking strides to break down the barriers of ignorance. are their opinions less valid? Sadly I would be a hypocrite if i said they were indeed less valid because of the EXTREME STUPIDITY, but we are all free to be as dumb as we would like to be, because people OF ALL RACES AND BACKGROUNDS have fought for this country time and time again.

92nd Infantry Division, 369th Infantry(Harlem Hellfighters)?!

During World War I 380,000 African Americans served in the wartime Army.

Histyory lesson for the TRULY Ignorant

Approximately 180,000 African Americans comprising 163 units served in the Union Army during the Civil War, and many more African Americans served in the Union Navy. Both free African-Americans and runaway slaves joined the fight.

I bet you think book learnin is ignorant too...

I pose a VERY difficult question for you:

What is it exactly that makes a Black person any different from a white person?

reply to post by OldDragger


See thats a misconception. There is only one race, the human race. People need to get colorblind. I never seen any color in my life but green. Thats the way i was raised. People on this planet are so stupid caught up on color. There are way bigger things to be concerned about on this earth like poverty, homelessness and much more.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


You somehow managed to almost completely misquote me.

Under what you quoted from me should have said,

"What's the difference?" - In regards to racism.

Please use my full quote next time as to not manipulate or twist what I said. Thank You.

And so it goes!
We have gotten some thoughful comments, and some...not quite so thoughtful. Keep going!

reply to post by OldDragger


You ask questions. You don't answer them?

The problem with racism is that it never goes away. No matter how many laws are enacted, how many rules are set up in the work place, no matter how many people who state there is no difference, people do not want to let the past die down. I, for one, do not care who sits as the President of the United States, as long as he represents all of the people, be they voted for him or not. The problems that have come up is when you have people or organizations who are close to the leader, who on the record state blanket statements or advocate the extermination of those of a different color of skin. I do not believe that those individuals should not be in direct contact with the President of the United States at any time. They may have good ideas, but if they are going to state such things, then there needs to be blocks to prevent them from directly speaking to the President.
On a side note, the funny thing is, based off of the study that the National Geographic did, all humans are 99% identical at the genetic level. Which means, that the only thing that is different from 2 people of different skin colors is just one genetic marker that dictates the color of their skin.
The President of the United States, has to be a leader and represent all of the people in the country, not just a few, or give favorable treatment to those whose ideas he likes, to do anything else is racist and prejudist in nature.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by OldDragger

 

You ask questions. You don't answer them?

Gee imagine that!
I have clearly stated what i think ( though from some of the comments, you would think I posted in Swahili). I'm interested in a discussion here, not lecturing. Unlike many here on ATS, I don't have THE TRUTH to offer.
I'd like to think somebody could read the thread in it's entirety, then form an idea how it relates to my original post and draw their own conclusions.
Guess I'm a cockeyed optimist!

Originally posted by sr_robert1
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

You somehow managed to almost completely misquote me.

I apologize. I didn't mean to remove an important part of your quote. I didn't understand the relevance of the rest of it until you explained. Now I do. But it wasn't clear to me in your original post.

reply to post by LordBucket


I have to say I do not agree with you at all. IMO you are indeed racist.

But

I would like to commend you for explaining so well why you feel they way you do, and doing so in an intelligent and non-confrontation manner I would also like to thank you for helping me better understand why people might feel as you do.

I may not look on those I deem racist in quite the same way in future. Thank you

Were I a mod I'd certainly be giving you applause. Even though I cannot ever agree with you.

reply to post by OldDragger


people are prejudice every day. people just have different limits when acting upon those feelings. some of the prejudices i see:

-eldely people get little to no respect
-obese people are also treated unfair
-persons of color (i see people on the receiving end of this prejudice with alarming regularity)
-persons of financial status. (think about the last homeless person who asked you for change)
-religion
-race


the list can go on. prejudice is real, and is experienced by thousands of people every day.

just my 2cents

-subfab

i don't know how to do the star and flag thing otherwise i would.

reply to post by drsmooth23

Race only matters to the exponentially ignorant.

I think you're being intellectually dishonest with yourself. Being racist is unfashionable, nothing more. I suspect that a large majority of the people who feel the way you do, do so only because they've been taught to feel that way.

How many people do you think sat down one day, considered the prons and cons and rationally decided that it would be best to not be racist? Be honest. That's not how it happens. People who are "anti-racist" are because they've been taught to be. Either by having been indoctrinated by society to have those beliefs, or by having seen the social stigma attached to it enough times to reinforce into their psyche that "it's not ok."

It's the same mechanisms at work that teaches people to be racist. Let's reverse the above question: how many racists do you think sat down one day, considered the prons and cons and deliberately chose to be racists? I'm guessing very few, if any. Again, that's not how it works. Probably the majority of racists initially came to their beliefs because they were taught by their parents. Often, unintentionally. Imagine a six year old who notices that his parents get uncomfortable around blacks. Choose to wait in the longer line at the store to have a white cashier instead of the shorter line with the black cashier. There's no intent to "teach racism" here, but children notice things like that. Now imagine that child growing up with a small circle of friends whose parents behave similarly, so the kids talk amongst themselves. They now have a peer group to reinforce this idea that "blacks are bad." And now...imagine a single, powerful catalyzing event: one of their older sisters gets raped and murdered by a black man. This is immediately relayed through the circle of friends, many of whom spend the rest of their childhood terrified for themselves and their family because now they "know" why their parents exhibited the avoidance behaviors in the first place. Congratulations. You now have a group of people who will be racists for the rest of their lives, and no amount of calm intellectual discourse or social pressure is likely to change them.

These are the mechanisms by which belief is taught. Simply dismissing racists as "ignorant" is, if you'll forgive me, extremely ignorant of the mechanisms by which people come to their beliefs.

You may have different beliefs than I do. But the process by which you came to yours is essentially the same as the process by which I came to mine. We were simply provided different data. And, I assure you that I've spent more time self-examining and considering whether my beliefs about race should be changed than you've spent considering whether yours should.





[edit on 12-9-2009 by LordBucket]

Great post, Mr/Ms Bucket

Originally posted by LordBucket
You now have a group of people who will be racists for the rest of their lives, and no amount of calm intellectual discourse or social pressure is likely to change them.

I'm going to disagree with this bit, though. People change their beliefs over their lifetime, even if they are ingrained. I was raised in a VERY strong religious family. I mean VERY strong. I grew up singing hymns, trying to save people and believing with all my heart. Once I started to think logically about the chance of the stories I was taught being true, my beliefs began to break down and change and now I am atheist. It took time, thought and lots of discussion to discover what I truly believed. And the same has happened to me with racial prejudice.

I don't think our beliefs are set in stone. But I could change my belief on that.

Simply dismissing racists as "ignorant" is, if you'll forgive me, extremely ignorant of the mechanisms by which people come to their beliefs.

I do agree with this.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I'm going to disagree with this bit

Well, I did say no amount of calm discourse or social pressure is likely to change them, not no amount "could possibly" change them.

Yes, beliefs can be changed. Case in point: in the example I gave, beliefs were instilled in the first place. That's a change.

It took time, thought and lots of discussion
to discover what I truly believed.

Yes.

In my case, my perspectives on race started started out as vague emotional tendancies without any real understanding of them. Curiously, the first of the two "emotionally traumatic" events I mentioned in a previous post really had very little to do with black people. It was the reaction of my own mother that started it. We were playing the game gauntlet in an arcade together, and the arcade attendant, a black woman, was watching us play. I was warning my mother about one of the monsters in the game, "death." She asked what it looked like and I said it was black. It was a completely innocent statement. My mother, however, was horribly embarrassed, got very quiet and then left. I had no idea what was going on. Later she ranted and raved and screamed at me for putting her in such a "humiliating" position, and never played arcade games with me again. At the time, it had never occurred to me to identify "black" as in the color with "black" as in the race. In my mind they were no more similar than grape flavored candy and the taste of real grapes. No similarity, they just happened to have the same name. But for my mother to yell and panic and scream the way she did...claerly, in my mind there was something very important going on that I didn't understand. Up until that day, I don't remember having any more distinction in my mind between black people and white people and people with really good tans. My next encounter with a black person was being beaten up by a total stranger at school while others watched and didn't care. 7th grade. I was a small kid, and he was fully a foot taller than me. I had no idea who he was. He walked up to me and said that people had told him I was saying bad things about him. I replied that I had no idea who he was...how could I possibly have been saying things about him? Apparently he didn't like that answer and decided that would be a good time to beat the # out of me. In the middle of a crowd of people who just watched casually and kept walking, pretending it wasn't happening. I didn't even know who he was. Just some random big black guy I had never seen before.

So, the lesson learned was: no wonder my mother was so terrified. Saying the wrong thing around a black person means you may get beaten into a pulp. And nobody will say or do anything about it because it's not socially acceptable to point out bad things if the person doing them is black.

There have been a number of events in my life that have reinforced those two events, and I've had a lot of years to think back on it all, but I have the advantage of very clearly remembering how it all started. I remember being unaware of black people being any different than anybody else, and I remember the events that led to that change of awareness. I'm guessing most people probably don't. Can you imagine what it would be like, living your entire life having felt those fears, those terrors, but never having any idea where they came from?

Ironically, after all these years, it's not black people that bother me nearly so much as the way white people react to blacks. Sure, some blacks are thugs and rapists. But it's usually whites who drop nuclear bombs and have crusades and inquisitions. White supremecists are delusional if they believe blacks have any kind of monopoly on murder and cruelty. But...oh...if you try to acknowledge that blacks can be thugs and rapists, if you try to talk to people about it...white people will be on your case in a heartbeat telling you how evil and horrible and "ignorant" you are.

I can point to statistics that demonstrate that asians tend to be smarter and more well behaved than whites. And when I do that, nobody has a problem with it. They're just facts. Nothing more. But point out those same statistics showing whites smarter and better behaved than blacks, and you invite a hellstorm of fury and anguish. "White pride" is evil, but "black pride" is holy and proper and good, and has an entire month on the calendar to celebrate it. That bothers me.

Once I started to think logically

Once I started thinking logically about race, my beliefs about it, and the beliefs of others...I began to conclude that people who insist we're all the same are deluding themselves to conform to the social climate of the day. It's socially acceptable to like or dislike people because of their religion. It's not socially acceptable to dislike people because of their race. Unless they happen to be white, in which case most people will let it go. Again...I can make a sweeping statement like "asians are usually good at math" or "white men can't dance" and nobody will try to crucify me. Whether or not they're true, it won't bother people, and many people will accept them as true. I can even say that "asians average 6 points higher on IQ tests than whites, and less than 2% of US prison inmates are asian" and nobody will so much as blink. But try saying "blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder in this country" or "whites average 17 points higher on IQ tests than blacks" and you invite anger, ridicule and denial, no matter how true these statements might be.

Why is that?



[edit on 12-9-2009 by LordBucket]

Originally posted by LordBucket
But try saying "blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder in this country" or "whites average 17 points higher on IQ tests than blacks" and you invite anger, ridicule and denial, no matter how true these statements might be.

Why is that?

Because they are 'hot button topics' within the society I'm assuming you live in (perhaps you're not American, but the same applies to many countries worldwide anyways). The disparity between the two groups are due to historically created divisions.

One group has had much more time to accumulate wealth while the other has not. In between blacks and whites are other groups, like the Irish, who were also not immediately accepted nor given the opportunity to advance within society. The famine in Ireland brought many thousands of them into America [before and] during the Civil War and they were not kindly welcomed.

The same can be said of recent refugees from the wars of the 20th century (of which I am one). They are generally called 'displaced persons' and are often subjected to much discrimination when circumstance force them among those who have lived in an area for generations. A recent example would be the large numbers of Mexicans trying to better their lives in America.

I must repeat myself on the false ideology of 'races'. There is no more than one race of humans. The only differences are due to geography, diet and societal stresses.

[edit on 12/9/09 by masqua]

reply to post by masqua

Because they are 'hot button topics' within the society

Yes. Exactly. And intense emotions aren't usually condusive to clear thought, regardless of the topic.

I must repeat myself on the false ideology of 'races'. There is no more than one race of humans.
The only differences are due to geography, diet and societal stresses.

Ok. But rather than repeating it, how about try to explain to me why you believe it? I recognize that you may have strong feelings on the matter, but let's leave out politics and emotions for the moment, and discuss it.

To me, saying that "there is only one race of human" doesn't seem all that different than claiming that "there is only one breed of dog." Would you seriously suggest that the difference between a chihuahua and a great dane are merely due to "geography, diet and societal stresses?"

Why are humans "magically different?"

Do you really believe that if you were to deposit, for example, a dutch family into south africa, that after a couple generations of south african "geography, diet and societal stresses" they would become just like the natives?

If so, why have the boers not come to resemble native africans after these past couple hundred years?