Why pretend race doesn't matter?

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posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 03:40 PM
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OK, I want to start here by saying I am not not not casting any stones here. SpartanKingLeonidas, especially, please read the previous sentence.

But I wanted to raise a point, since we are talking race, that is related to BH's Sister in law story above (I was there... that was an exciting evening!
).

Racism is built right into the language that we all use every day. For example, the phrase "reverse racism". As SpartanKing said, racism is racism, and the direction does not matter, or make one any less ignorant than the other.

However, pretty much everyone in the US at least knows what the phrase "reverse racism" means... racism directed at white people, right?

So the daily-use, conotational language has built right into it the idea that "racism" is directed from white people to non white, and when racism is directed from non white people to white, all of a sudden it has a different name.

But racism is racism. The direction does not matter.

Again, no attack here... just bringing up a point of interest in a racial discussion.




posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by OldDragger

Over and over i hear people say that Obama's race doesn't matter. Of course it does.
Is there really anyone out there that is so lost they think that people aren't concerned with race? Please. Are you aware of the fact that non whites didn't have full civil rights ( legally ) until 1964?
Do you realize a great number of Americans living right now were around in 1964?
I'd guess at least 20% of Americans have a problem with having a black President.
Don't say he's half white, in America if you look black, YOU ARE BLACK! Spare me your "reverse racism" bal;oney, this thread is about racism towards Obama.
It's funny how NOBODY can just admit it bugs them that we have a black man as President!


Wow. fire breathing smilie and everything. why so angry, bud?

Yes, there is a small populace in this country that use race as measuring stick when judging a person. Luckily, most people don't feel that way. The people that are racist usually don't advertise it.

Personally, I don't care if a person is racist or not, as I don't have to associate with those types. There are more of us than there are of them.

I am thinking this thread was not meant for people who look at everyone equally. Rather, you want to talk to people who use race as a factor. Is that right? There may be a small portion of those types on this board but good luck getting most of them to admit it.

Having said that, I will mosey my equal-opportunity booty to the sidelines and watch.

/gets popcorn.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic
 


Point well spoken and thoroughly explained.

I thank you for your comment and understand where you are coming from.

 


Racism, reverse-racism, they are the same thing, and to me they equal ignorance.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


And I agree with you. Unfortunately, there are more ignorant people in this country than I like to admit.

Caution: Foul Language at link:

Racist Attacks on Obama Growing More Heated

JackAss Designer Creates Racist Attack on Obama

Veiled Racism Seen in New Attacks on Obama

These people didn't "get religion" and stop being racist after Obama won. If anything, their anger and hatred increased because he won. They didn't crawl into holes and die. They are among the 20% that the OP estimates. And in addition to them, I think there are people who wouldn't admit it and don't know it, as I talked about in my first post.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Well, I agree with your point, BH, racism is just a tool used by the ignorant and Government.

The intent is to divide and conquer.

I would not love you any less, BH, if you were not the same race as me, I would love you just the same.




posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by IconoclasticTalamasca
 


Hypocrisy and blatant dishonesty tick me off!
Several posters here have claimed that racism plays no part at all in the rabid Obama hating that is fashionable today! That is racist in itself!
As for only a small portion of Americans being racist, I stick by my 20% or so.
That's two out of ten. Racism is much broader than the KKK and NAZI types. It's subtlety ingrained in our culture.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


Very interesting viewpoint, and well said.

And I wonder if your position would be called racism, in the conotational meaning of the word. Denotationally, I think it is, because you are saying you are not comfortable with a black president, without regard to his abilities, i.e are uncomfortable due to his race.

I think the term racism carries the conotation that the target is flawed in some way... stupid, dishonest, whatever. But if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying Obama could be your dream president in terms of policy, ability and behavior, and you would still be uncomfortable with him as president due to the visual / mental image.

Very interesting view. I admire your integrity.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 04:35 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by poedxsoldiervet
 


Kinda OT here!
I am glad you have no prejudice though! Good luck!



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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*** ATTENTION ***

Please refer to members by their ATS names only please.

Also remain on topic.

Thanks


[edit on 10-9-2009 by elevatedone]



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I would not love you any less, BH, if you were not the same race as me, I would love you just the same.



Backatcha!



Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
But if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying Obama could be your dream president in terms of policy, ability and behavior, and you would still be uncomfortable with him as president due to the visual / mental image.


It still goes back to what he thinks of "black people". And that is that they can't provide proper leadership and are uninspiring - BECAUSE they're black. He made a comparison between a white and black person using the analogy of comparing an eagle to a rat, platypus and dodo bird. I think LordBucket's racial prejudices are clear. It's just so unusual and refreshing to hear someone actually take ownership of their prejudice, that it almost seems downright respectable.


I do respect his integrity, if not his opinions.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Why pretend race matters? It doesn't. Tribalism matters.

It's because someone is different somehow or not from around these parts that they aren't wanted.

Want to talk about RACE? Then you first have to understand where racism comes from and why it exists in the first place.

Read the OP in that link above and then tell me Obama is from another race or mixed from two races, because that's just BS the PTB have fed us for hundreds of years.

And please, don't give me any of that Caucasian/Mongolian (etc.) stuff as being races either, because that's just genetic differences based on geography and diet.

It's sad that tribalism is still so prominent in this world as to have an effect on politics. Sadder still that it exists so extensively in a country based on the idea of equality to all.



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


BB code edit

[edit on 10/9/09 by masqua]



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by OldDragger

Over and over i hear people say that Obama's race doesn't matter. Of course it does.
Is there really anyone out there that is so lost they think that people aren't concerned with race? Please. Are you aware of the fact that non whites didn't have full civil rights ( legally ) until 1964?
Do you realize a great number of Americans living right now were around in 1964?
I'd guess at least 20% of Americans have a problem with having a black President.
Don't say he's half white, in America if you look black, YOU ARE BLACK! Spare me your "reverse racism" bal;oney, this thread is about racism towards Obama.
It's funny how NOBODY can just admit it bugs them that we have a black man as President!


It's irrelevant to me. Don't insinuate that it is. Are there some? Yup. On both sides, some how favor black, some how dislike it. Not my problem. These are petty issues, have to rise above this game of division. They are all American citizens, that's all that matters.

I hope people of other races can rise above these titles of "Asian American" or "African American" and just come to accept themselves as Americans. After all, you don't see me running around calling myself Irish American, Italian American or dutch american.

Why can't you accept that there are some that have risen above this segregation tactic?



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by OldDragger
 


Race is not a factor unless you are a person who isnt from my generation ( you older people) There is only one color my generation sees and that is Green. My generation helped get Obama elected, My generation belived he would change things. Now we are seeing it as A BIG FAT OLD LIE.

You older Generations have royal screwed this country, it is time for you to go out to the pastor chew your "backy" and let us take over. You r generations have not done anything right in this country, and when someone points this out to you you scream Rasiscm or Sexism or any other stupid ISM you have out there. How about this you guys just go away turn the reigns over to us and let us have at, we cant do any worse then people have done.

Take a thousand points away for that.


What about ageism?



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 08:11 PM
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reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic
 




Very interesting view. I admire your integrity.


Thank you.



you are saying you are not comfortable with a black president,
without regard to his abilities, i.e are uncomfortable due to his race.


Yes.

Imagine a scottsman leading an alcoholics anonymous meeting. He may personally be a good speaker, charming and a dedicated non-drinker, nevertheless there might be some people uncomfortable with it simply because of the reputation that scotts have for being strong drinkers. Or imagine a large man who lifts weights in his spare time in charge of a women's domestic abuse shelter. It would be awkward. How about an athiest driving the bus for a catholic school?

These people might all be perfectly capable of performing these jobs, but solely for reasons of race, religion, gender, etc., there are people who might very reasonably be uncomfortable with them.



you are saying Obama could be your dream president in terms of policy, ability and behavior,
and you would still be uncomfortable with him as president due to the visual / mental image.


Exactly.

When I think of blacks, I think about slavery. I think about the stereotype of a street hoodlum. I think about all the white people I've known who have been manipulated into having major guilt complexes for actions they had nothing to do with. I think about all the blonde girls who have been gang raped and murdered to "get back at whitey." I think of Bill Cosby saying that black people really need to clean house and get their act together. I think of all the blacks I've known who I can't understand because they speak with an incomprehensible accent.

Sure...Obama himself has given me no reason to associate these thoughts with him personally. But nevertheless these are the things I think about...because he is black.

Do I lose sleep over it? No. Is it uncomfortable? Yes.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 




And that is that they can't provide proper leadership
and are uninspiring - BECAUSE they're black.


No, that's not what I said. I acknowlegde that a black man might be capable of providing effective leadership, but even if he were, my discomfort with him would still remain.

Let's work with an anology: what if a charismatic, intelligent, dedicated white man with strong and thoroughly compatible beliefs were to try for the presidency of the NAACP? Would it be reasonable for blacks to be uncomfortable with that? After all, many millions of them were used as slaves by whites, whipped, beaten and raped over hundreds of years. Is it possible there might be some unpleasant leftover emotions from that? Well, by an amusing coincidence, it happens that the current NAACP president, Todd Jealous, is half black / half white. And yes, there were objections based solely on his mixed race.

Were these objections racist? Yes. Were they nevertheless understandable and reasonable? I say yes.



He made a comparison between a white and black person using
the analogy of comparing an eagle to a rat, platypus and dodo bird.


Wait a second...are you implying that rats, playtpi and dodo birds are somehow "inferior" to eagles? Are you suggesting that eagles are somehow "superior" to the others? If people are "all the same" then aren't shouldn't animals be "all the same" too? What happened to this "equality" that I see people espousing? Are you a specicist?

Well, maybe, but whatever you choose to call it doesn't change the associations these animals have in the western psyche. If you're in china it might make perfect sense to have a rat as a mascot because people are likely to assocatiate it with being clever, protective and likable. Here in the US, "dirty, filthy vermin" is more likely to come to mind.

Personally, I think rats are adorable, cuddly and cute, but I recognize that my own personal feelings about rats are irrelevant so far as the general public is concerned. It would be absolutely foolish for me to emblazon the walls of my children's daycare business with hordes of rats because the mental associations that most others in this country have of rats is not a favorable one.

The office of president is very much like a mascot, or a family crest. The president is a symbol and a figurehead for our country. Yes? Ok, now let's be honest with ourselves. When people in this country think of the black race, what associations come immediately to mind? Don't stop to ask if they're justified. What associations come to mind? If they're unjustified maybe we can be honest enough with ourselves to review and change our perspective. But we'll never be able to do that if we're not even honest enough with ourselves to admit what we think in the first place.



I think LordBucket's racial prejudices are clear.
It's just so unusual and refreshing to hear someone actually take
ownership of their prejudice, that it almost seems downright respectable.


Thank you. I think part of the original posters point was that some arbitrarily large portion of people in this country feel the same way I do, but are either in denial or simply won't admit it. And, probably a lot of them don't really understand why they feel the way they do. I think that I do. My first two encounters with black people as a child were both, shall we say...emotionally traumatic. Growing up I had no black friends, and throughout my life there has never been anything in black culture that I relate to. Then there's this curious notion presented to me that I somehow "owe them" because of something that was done to them by somebody else over a hundred years ago. And some of them appear to feel very strongly that they need to "get back at whitey" because of it. And now one of these people is the figurehead of our country?

Yes, that's uncomfortable for me.

The human brain works by association. When the thought "black man" fires in some peoples brains, it's possible that the their synapses might connect to thoughts like "good dancer" and "large genetalia." For me personally, the associations lean more towards "big and wants to hurt me," "uneducated criminal," "wants revenge and likes to rape white girls to get it," and "manipulated white people being self destructive over unjustified feelings of guilt."

If you want to suggest that these associations aren't justified, that's one thing. But it would be a discussion for a different thread. The fact is I do have these associations and I don't think I'm alone in that regard.

So yes, even if Obama is charismatic, which he appears to be...even if he's smarter than Bush, which he very obviously is...even if he's a competant and effective leader, which it's possible he might be...even so, yes I feel discomfort at him being president, solely for the reason that he is black.



[edit on 10-9-2009 by LordBucket]



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 08:32 PM
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I look forward confidently to the day when all who work for a living will be one with no thought to their separateness as Negroes, Jews, Italians or any other distinctions. This will be the day when we bring into full realization the American dream -- a dream yet unfulfilled. A dream of equality of opportunity, of privilege and property widely distributed; a dream of a land where men will not take necessities from the many to give luxuries to the few; a dream of a land where men will not argue that the color of a man's skin determines the content of his character; a dream of a nation where all our gifts and resources are held not for ourselves alone, but as instruments of service for the rest of humanity; the dream of a country where every man will respect the dignity and worth of the human personality.

Dr. Martin Luther King

Just a reminder kids. A great man said this, how about listening to his words.

00.02



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


By George MYLORD!
I think you got it!
SEE, we can discuss this subject intelligently.
As I said, I'm not out to flame or troll.
I do think that its way WAY easier for some to associate being some wild radical traitor with a black man, all other factors being equal.
Reading these replies is very interesting, I'm not out to debate anything, but I find the spectrum of replies very revealing.
Revealing how? Well ATS'ers, you decide and I hope YOU will contribute!



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 09:02 PM
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Quick quiz: Tell me everything you know about the following pictures.





Picture 1 is of Carroll O'Connor A very talented actor in his most memorable role. Few know that he was absolutely nothing like the character of Archie Bunker. Wasn't even his normal accent used in the voice of the character. Fewer still can watch an episode today and notice the detail in his pantomimes or realize that his over the top performances was due to playing to a live audience in theatre style setting as opposed to later shows using a coached live audience.

Picture 2 is known to a far wider audience. Willie Smith, gold; Peter Norman, silver; John Carlos bronze. Smith and Carlos were pall bearers at Norman's funeral, they all remained in contact for years. It just so happens that John Carlos's nephew was the man that taught me to drive a semi. It was I that passed on a valuable lesson of prejudice and racism to his grand nephew that was taught to me by an old Cherokee Indian (of which I have slightly noticeable features) when I was about his age.

Obama's race does not bother me in the least. To me a man is a man unless he proves himself otherwise. My personal credo is "Never refuse another man a drink of water. It is something that we all need and should be given freely if you have it." Many people come up with their own interpretations as to what exactly that means to them. Some even see a drink of water as a parable. Seldom have I heard an incorrect answer to what it means when the person thinks about it.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by Ahabstar]



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 09:15 PM
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def: prejudice 1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason. 2. any preconceived poinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. 3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes,esp. of a hostile nature directed against a racial, relifious, or national group.

def: preference 1. the act of preferring. 2. the state of being preferred.

def: prefer 1. to set or hold before or above another or other persons or things in estimation.

Prejudice is unreasonable preference.

One may have preferences, not prejudices, because prejudice is unreasonable (lacking sound judgment, good sense, sanity).

To dislike the President or his policies for sound reasons is to express preference, not prejudice. To dislike him for his color, which he has no control over, is not reasonable and would be considered prejudice.

Racial coloration is a regional skin adaptation, increasing melanin in the skin to block out harmful ultraviolet rays. It is also found in those who are spending a lot of time in the sun, such as field laborers. Over history, dark skin indicated workers, and fair skin indicated people who worked indoors (probably likely to be wealthy). That prejudice, not preference, has remained among us too long.

People from northern countries had to develop more transparent skin to gain sufficient sun exposure to produce necessary vitamins in the skin.

There is no reasonable or rational explanation for the preference in skin color in nature. In fact, if the Earth were to have an increase in UV radiation due to a disappearing ozone layer, dark-skinned people would survive better, have less skin cancer, etc.

I suggest we judge the President on what he can accomplish. He is new in office, and is seemingly able to gather his friends and foes into a collective majority to accomplish great things. If it has been tough for Arnold S. in California, you can imagine it is tougher for the POTUS in Washington, D.C. with the varied and distant representatives that he must and will persuade to make effective, caring, needed changes in the health care system and other programs.

I support him. I think he is the man to get it done, has the energy and determination, and intelligence...

I believe that in ten years, you will look back and wonder why you did not support him. All of us should be careful of the media.

If anything, we should all be happy because the POTUS is a mix of us all.
For those of you who are science based, we are all related if you go back about 1500 years, anyway. He's your brother, and he needs your support to get this incredible job done. Let's all work together, or else we will tear our country apart.


[edit on 10-9-2009 by Jim Scott]





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