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Derivatives Collapse and the China Gold and Silver Markets

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posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by son of total newbie

You can sometimes make money guarding estates. I have. Just listened to G. Noory all night and drifted in and out of sleep.



Not a bad idea. One could pratice their "Sneaky Skills"
Though you should be listening to the night around you instead of radio youngling.

As for the topic , a metal detector would be a good investment.




posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 07:36 PM
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reply to post by theonlyrusty
 


For what it's worth, I have left all of the public markets. The manipulation being done by other than market forces appears to be massive.

Regarding the post, historically, valuable coins, mostly silver, have functioned as actual currency when things fall apart. I am hoarding my pre 1965 quarter coin supply......

I hate to say this folks, buy storable food, weapons and ammunition (if you can get it).............Buy medical supplies, alcohol (both consumable and isopropylol) , and betadyne......



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 07:37 PM
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When the Weimar Republic went hyperinflationary many took their precious metals and jewelry out to the farms for food. Nowadays I see gangs taking their guns out to the farms when the SHTF.

The 30 year treasury auction comes up at the end of September and if the Chinese don't show up the dollar will collapse.

Stay well stocked and prepare to defend what you have.

S&F once again for you Warren.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 07:44 PM
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In my experience there's nothing more dangerous or vicious than a high roller with a vaporized bank account. I think this possible scenario would make for a real bad day down town.

The insulation to this is real cheep. Take initiative to reintegrate with the master economy ~>NATURE



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 07:51 PM
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well this is all fine and dandy but really this is a game for the upper elite. gold has always been controled by a few, they are the one putting the value on it, and own it all. Unless you've got physical gold in your hands, you don't have squat. i own 50Louis D'or (the french king money, pure gold) worth a small amount of money, but i'm keeping it just for historical value more than anything else. last i went to a coin trader and asked, he said those coins were basically becoming more rare by the minute because high buyers are melting them down.
i have a friend who works for the FTC (i know its not part of this but he's got big brains on his shoulders) and he believes that you're much better off buying shares from big oil companies than gold. he's reasoning is quite interesting but basically mercantile exchange is more protected by governments than gold.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by zarp3333
Warren you are my favorite person on ats. I've come to respect your input and I've been afraid of a post like this.

What would you do if you were broke? I've been living check to ckeck paying interest only trying to keep my over valued house. I've got 2 weeks of food and a few hundred shotgun shells.I've got 4 young kids and one due in january.

For the first time in a long time I am frightened. Even a 3rd world peasant understands a run on gold prices means all faith in modern capitalism is shot.

What is your take on the societal implications over the next few months. Its easy to say stock up on survival gear but do you really mean take my family out of our urban home and move into the woods?


I'm in the same position Zarp but I have a wife that thinks I am nuts for the most part. I am a bit more stocked up than you but I suspect there are many like us that will be better prepared than most.

Just try and keep piling up on the barter items. In the times to come can goods will be like gold.

I have an SKS, shot gun and a russian 9 mil knock off. I have about 200 rounds for each.

It does amaze me that no one sees the fall in ammo supplies as a sign of things to come.

Hang in there Zarp. I am a bit scared for my family too.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 08:00 PM
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There has been alot of controversy about Comex and the US manipulating the gold market. Also the Derivatives market is still locked up and much of that paper is coming due and they have to do something about it. Our leaders have led us down the same road of financial ruin that has happened to other empires. Manipulation of money and resources in order to get what you want right now at the expense of the future. We are printing money in order to prop up the banks and the bond system and the rest of the world knows it. But our MSM in our country doesn't say a word, because they are told to "think and say happy thoughts". Also our media acts like the Great Wall of to block any information coming from overseas that doesn't fit a certain parameters (good for us). You can find the info online, but they know that many americans have been dumbed down enough to think that this information isn't relevant because its not from the US.

If you want to see a future of what may happen to the US try looking at the Argentine economic crisis (1999–2002) (actually they still have problems so the 2002 maybe should be blank). Argentina was considered the Europe of the South Americas, beautiful country and cities alike. But when there money became worthless and/or severly devalued, people instantly became 3rd world paupers. I think this is a scenario that may happen but times 20 because of two things. One, our money is the reserve currency for the world and if that goes it will implode almost every financial instrument denominated in dollars and or supported by assets in dollars. And two, we have pissed people off all over this planet, including england (do you really think our "ally" likes playing 4th fiddle to when they used to be an empire). And if we go down, many and look like we will be down, they (including our "allies") will be jumping on us and trying to carve us up to take either revenge or retaliation for things we have done over the decades and century.

Thats the problem with being a perceived bully to everybody, when you finally fall you fall fast and hard and sometimes never get up.

Here's the wiki for the Argentine crisis and also google about it and look for youtube videos about how bad things got and still are.

en.wikipedia.org...(1999%E2%80%932002)



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 08:09 PM
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Silver DIMES are usually more worn than Quarters and halves.Why?They were more used as everyday use currency and so I believe also will be the most used in future.If you think about it which would you rather have in a desperate situation,a roll of coins or equal value in one large bill?Especially as people deal when desperate.Exact money with no change required is the way to go.No show excess.Plus a roll of money is not prone to rot and makes a pretty good weapon in a sock in a pinch.Plus you can make stuff out of 'em like buttons,fishing lures,steel marker.Anybody remember pitching pennies?Cheap fun.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 08:15 PM
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rule number ONE All markets collapse.

All it takes is one Madoff-like Ponzi scheme, one Enron, one "******"manipulating the system

All it would take is one company selling un-backed, bogus or manipulating ETF shares to cause the market to collapse.

I expect that the new China's gold and silver market will/does not have the safeguards in place to prevent some kind of scam. it takes time to make the rules to cover any type scam someone in china dreams up.
Most rules are made AFTER someone has done a scam.

This could collapse the world wide gold and silver market even though the scam only affected china.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Never invest through one investment company.
Never invest in one form of investment.
Cover your investments.

Now if you want to invest in gold or silver have fun. Just remember the above.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 08:53 PM
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Add to this the coming popping of the commercial real estate bubble, residential alt-a, ARM, and even prime mortgage defaults and we have the makings of a total financial implosion. Toss in some H1N1, add a lil' adjuvant tainted vaccine. The thin veneer of society will peel away quickly.

I don't think the sheep quite understand what it means if the US "Federal" Reserve Note is no longer the reserve currency of the globe and "good as gold". The US being forced to live within its means if not outright defaulting (again) on its incomprehensible debt only brings visions of the US sliding into a good and proper slum of the third world.

I'm stocked up, loaded up, locked down and ready to bug in. I am heavily invested in copper, brass and lead.

Ammo seems to be flowing again a little more. Now if the primer supply would just lighten up and start flowing... Grab it while you can. The price only goes UP. Ammo will never be as cheap again as it is right now. Never...



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 09:03 PM
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I just invested in an eye-popping amount of physical silver yesterday. This was the first time for me to buy physical silver bars, although I have physical gold and platinum bar holdings. The stuff is so heavy and bulky I had to hire a private security company to transport it for me.

This was a big leap into the void and I hope I made the right decision. Time will tell. For the record I do not envision a "mad max scenario" where we are shaving off little flakes or gold or silver or whatever to trade for loaves of bread. But I do expect metals to go up in value significantly and I am looking at this as a decade-plus investment.

The next thing I'd like to invest in is rare earth metals like Scandium, etc. Many of these have strong technological appplications and both China and Japan are hoarding them by trading dollars therefor, which to me is a bullish sign to say the least. These seem to be harder to come by and store, however.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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Metals are great when people need it, but if you have lots of silver and gold remember a few things.

How much of it will you trade for one meal?

Something is only worth what someone is willing to give for it.

If I have a hord of food, guns and supplies on my farm and someone wanted to trade gold or silver for it, my answered would be......

....why would or do I need silver of gold? Thanks anyways do you have anything of value to trade me?

Like handsaws, seeds, goats, chickens.

People are losing sight. Gold and silver are illusions.






Originally posted by silent thunder
I just invested in an eye-popping amount of physical silver yesterday. This was the first time for me to buy physical silver bars, although I have physical gold and platinum bar holdings. The stuff is so heavy and bulky I had to hire a private security company to transport it for me.

This was a big leap into the void and I hope I made the right decision. Time will tell. For the record I do not envision a "mad max scenario" where we are shaving off little flakes or gold or silver or whatever to trade for loaves of bread. But I do expect metals to go up in value significantly and I am looking at this as a decade-plus investment.

The next thing I'd like to invest in is rare earth metals like Scandium, etc. Many of these have strong technological appplications and both China and Japan are hoarding them by trading dollars therefor, which to me is a bullish sign to say the least. These seem to be harder to come by and store, however.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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Warren, I too respect your posts and thank you for the information. I have been twitching just to get home to post this. It is omnious from Market Ticker.org;

The Consumer Credit Game is Over
(graphs at the site)


The Greenspan gambit to avoid a "Kondratiev Winter" has failed.

Mr. Greenspan is said to have once remarked during the 00-03 market implosion that this was indeed exactly what he was trying to prevent, strongly implying that he was well-aware of where we were in the credit cycle (that is, he had the up-to-2000 version of the above chart and understood it) and that should he fail the results would be catastrophic.

I cannot verify that conversation took place (and I've tried), but it does make sense - after all, Greenspan may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

We have continued to pretend that the above graph does not represent reality. We have shifted borrowing from citizens to the Federal Government in a (futile) attempt to keep the credit-expansion game going. It can't and won't work - the evidence is, at this point, irrefutable that what I laid forth as our destiny in 2007, like it or not, is occurring.

The character of what was attempted in 2000 is obvious from this chart: Boost borrowing against homes and by the government. When the home borrowing scheme failed and started to self-destruct The Federal Government has attempted to pick up that piece as well, a trend that is clear starting in 2007 and has continued since.

There is no way out of the box via this method; we are in fact headed for a sovereign credit, monetary system and thus GOVERNMENT failure if we don't stop! WE MUST accept a contraction to sustainable levels of economic activity and STOP trying to substitute for consumer demand with government borrowing or we WILL witness the collapse of our governing funding model when those who loan the government money realize that the US consumer is INCAPABLE of resuming their former credit-expansionist way of life.

Do not be fooled by the talking heads on TV - the above graph proves what is really going on and what is at stake. It is not possible to "restart" credit demand among consumers as we have failed in our efforts to boost consumer income, the means by which one pays debt. The consumer has hit the wall as ever-increasing demands on income for the necessities of life - the price of which (food, fuel and medical care in particular) has risen much faster than their income and they are trapped.


* bold added by me



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by Realtruth
 


There are plenty of possible middle-grounds between "everything is booming like in the housing bubble" and "Mad Max: Beyond thunderdome" where people are trading physical metals for daily goods.

I do not believe either of the above are realistic. Rather, I see a long, slow grind downwards. There will always be paper (or increasingly, electronic) currency, IMHO. What will change is the relative value of these things compared with hard physical commodities and metals -- ariable land, water rights, rare-earth metals, and precious metals. I am assuming a future that is darker but not down-right apocalyptic, and I think a market for converting physical metals back and forth itno actual currency will continue to exist.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 09:35 PM
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Food, Water and firearms... That's my Two cents... You can Keep the CHANGE!



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by pegasi51
Food, Water and firearms... That's my Two cents... You can Keep the CHANGE!


I like the expression "the five G's:" Gold, Girls, Grain, Guns, and Gasoline.



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by zarp3333
 


"What would you do if you were broke? I've been living check to ckeck paying interest only trying to keep my over valued house. I've got 2 weeks of food and a few hundred shotgun shells.I've got 4 young kids and one due in january.

For the first time in a long time I am frightened. Even a 3rd world peasant understands a run on gold prices means all faith in modern capitalism is shot.

What is your take on the societal implications over the next few months. Its easy to say stock up on survival gear but do you really mean take my family out of our urban home and move into the woods?"

First, have you negotiated with your lender? You are clearly 'underwater' or 'upside down' as over half of the mortgages are in CA, Nevada, and FL.
Are there many rentals available? If so, would it be cheaper than your current payments? Concentrate on cutting your losses - whether it is a car or a house.

Second, buy NON HYBRID seeds from someone like heirloom seeds online. Hybrids are good for one season ONLY. If you replant 'seeds' from hybrid plants, they will produce a sterile (foodless) plant. The seeds are only a dollar or two per packet and will produce much food. If you can can food, by jars, lots of lids, sealing wax and a good, big, pressure cooker. Purchase canned meats, dried beans, rice, flour, grits, sugar and honey; oh, and pasta.

Buy food storage 5 gallon pails to store the food with special 'gamma ray' screw-off tops that also self seal.

I feel for you and your wife, especially, since she is due soon. Do you know any nurses. Go to your local community college and see if there are any non-credit night courses in medicine/nursing. You might not only pick up needed info, but also someone who could double for a midwife.

The most important thing I saved for last. The most responsible father is one who has seen not only to meeting his family's physical needs, but also their spiritual needs. As a Christian, I know that I and my family are in God's hands. We were bought by Him as it cost Him his Son to save us. If your family is trusting in Him, and you have done as much as possible in your circumstances to care and prepare, then leave the rest up to Him. And be SURE to listen for His guidance. If He tells you to sit tight, do it. If He tells you to go, go. "Obedience is better than sacrifice."



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 10:35 PM
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Originally posted by silent thunder

Originally posted by pegasi51
Food, Water and firearms... That's my Two cents... You can Keep the CHANGE!


I like the expression "the five G's:" Gold, Girls, Grain, Guns, and Gasoline.


Feh, screw the guns and gasoline. Give me alchohol and explosives.. 'course it isn't quite as poetic..



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by Bullion King
 
So if I was preparing to buy gold you are saying not to, I was going to get Mapleleafs, between 50 and a 100 thousand.
But it seems silver looks better now ?



posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 11:02 PM
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everyone really needs to relax and stop stressing.

1) China is the worlds largest Gold Producer, and people are buying up gold in China like crazy. Gold is in high demand for industrial applications as well and with the banking crisis Gold is safe haven.

2) Silver always follows Golds lead historically lagging by several months to a year. Silver also has unique medical and industrial uses that are about to come into fruition in the nano and micro medical industries.

4) Gold and Silver did absolutely nothing for 25 years. they were in artificial lows brought about by focus on financial products industry. When those products collapsed, people rediscovered the investment principals of gold and silver.
It was a perfect storm for precious metals starting in 2002. This metals market will continue for another 8-10 years, which is in line with past historical bull markets for precious metals.

5) China has over a trillion dollars of their reserves held in USD. They will not do anything to risk their reserves, they would be shooting themselves in the foot.

China will certainly be aggressive with US treasury and Feds, they dont want to experience what the USA and Europe just went through. But they wont cut their leg off in the process.



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