"Gnothi Seauton"/Know Thyself/Self-Awareness

Originally posted by seagrass
The all is mind part stumps me. I don't agree for some reason I can't put my finger on. I see brains floating around the universe.

THE ALL is mind? Don't get too literal or you do get lost. To say THE ALL is X and take that at face value, is to put it subordinate to X when in fact ALL cannot be subordinate to any thing.

You also suggest that you believe brain equals mind by your description.

No light or energy or something like that is what I see the universe made up of. The creative energy has consciousness in my opinion, but not necessarily in the form of a mind. Maybe.

What is light and energy?

[edit on 9/11/2009 by EnlightenUp]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

Originally posted by seagrass
The all is mind part stumps me. I don't agree for some reason I can't put my finger on. I see brains floating around the universe.

THE ALL is mind? Don't get too literal or you do get lost. To say THE ALL is X and take that at face value, is to put it subordinate to X when in fact ALL cannot be subordinate to any thing.

You also suggest that you believe brain equals mind by your description.

No light or energy or something like that is what I see the universe made up of. The creative energy has consciousness in my opinion, but not necessarily in the form of a mind. Maybe.

What is light and energy?

[edit on 9/11/2009 by EnlightenUp]

not like they are equal, but that was the image that came. Don't get too literal with me buddy! It is just difficult for me to connect many minds/consciousnesses to a one mind/consciousness without some nonliteral connective tissue is my point... perhaps light and energy.
I believe they are most likely the same thing, or not... and if everything vibrates perhaps it is musical light. I don't know...
If there are levels I suppose some things are subordinate in some fashion, while still being part of the ALL.
why wait for me to put my foot in the water and laugh? What do you think, or shall I say KNOW about it?

[edit on 11-9-2009 by seagrass]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
THE ALL is mind? Don't get too literal or you do get lost. To say THE ALL is X and take that at face value, is to put it subordinate to X when in fact ALL cannot be subordinate to any thing.

If I may... if it is ALL then mustn't it in fact also be subordinate? Isn't it actually ALL and therefore without limitation or position except when attempted to be viewed and interpreted? Rather like the concept of 'super position' in quantum mechanics.

To claim it can only be one thing and not another, even if that one thing is seen as above all else is quite literal and limiting and so doesn't describe ALL, but rather a focused on aspect.

The ALL itself is indescribable in any complete fashion isn't it? Only our place in it can be known to us and even that is limited by our point of view. Hence, to me, the entire purpose for 'knowing' ourselves.

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
If I may... if it is ALL then mustn't it in fact also be subordinate? Isn't it actually ALL and therefore without limitation or position except when attempted to be viewed and interpreted? Rather like the concept of 'super position' in quantum mechanics.

To claim it can only be one thing and not another, even if that one thing is seen as above all else is quite literal and limiting and so doesn't describe ALL, but rather a focused on aspect.

You may.

It has to be both one thing and not another and not one thing and not another or else how could it be ALL?

There is the statement that THE ALL is in ALL and ALL is part of THE ALL. Is is both that thing and not it. THE ALL is not subordinate to any THING and it is not a really a thing at all in the usual sense.

To say THE ALL is mind is to imply the possibility that there is mind that is not ALL, hence subordinate, a subset of MIND. If there is MIND that is not ALL, then it is in fact ALL and a subset of ALL.

The ALL itself is indescribable in any complete fashion isn't it?

This is true but how do we carry on a conversation about it?

Only our place in it can be known to us and even that is limited by our point of view. Hence, to me, the entire purpose for 'knowing' ourselves.

So long as we have a place in it, that is our limitation.

and how does this apply to knowing the self? As it applies to here on planet Earth? how is knowing the All is the All of whatever x which is not subordinate but then may be????

Better yet how about we just ignore the political principles I posted and get back to the original OP. I guess they do not apply.

[edit on 11-9-2009 by seagrass]

Originally posted by seagrass
and how does this apply to knowing the self?

As within; so without.

As it applies to here on planet Earth?

As above; so below.

how is knowing the All is the All of whatever x which is not subordinate but then may be????

Because self-realization and God realization are the same?

Better yet how about we just ignore the political principles I posted and get back to the original OP. I guess they do not apply.

"If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." ( John 10:37-38)

Ex uno disce omnes?

I do not understand the political take on occultism at all.

political only in so far as it is questionable who wrote them who gets credit etc, and the people who surround them. You mentioned Mental Alchemy, so I went and found those principles in a search. Having no familiarity with MA.

Ex uno disce omnes - From one person learn all persons. (From one we can judge the rest)




[edit on 12-9-2009 by seagrass]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
To say THE ALL is mind is to imply the possibility that there is mind that is not ALL, hence subordinate, a subset of MIND. If there is MIND that is not ALL, then it is in fact ALL and a subset of ALL.

Within the infinite all possibilities are equally possible. Nothing can be excluded when the vessel encompasses all. Even nothingness is within it and can not be without it.

This is true but how do we carry on a conversation about it?

Just as we are with the awareness that every aspect is merely an aspect of an aspect in an infinite array of aspects. The moment we think we've grasped it, it slips through.

So long as we have a place in it, that is our limitation.

Even nothing is within it. There is no place outside it. There are no limitations.

Which is why I believe the topic is 'know thyself'. Nothing is measurable without boundaries and boundaries are only known within themselves. We measure ourselves because we are our only boundary. We seek out others to reflect in us what we wish to see about ourselves. Though like any reflection, the image is not complete. Only one side is shown.

As above, so below isn't simply a maxim of position and relationship, but a revelation that All is reflected in each of its individual elements. Drops of light which contain a complete picture in and of itself.

[edit on 12/9/09 by TravelerintheDark]

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
Within the infinite all possibilities are equally possible. Nothing can be excluded when the vessel encompasses all. Even nothingness is within it and can not be without it.

That doesn't mean they're equally possible. Not all infinities are equal either in content or in cardinality. Talking of "within" and "without" about something that has no inside or outside makes me giggle, or does it have those qualities and that makes me scowl? Mess it! There's no point.

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
Just as we are with the awareness that every aspect is merely an aspect of an aspect in an infinite array of aspects. The moment we think we've grasped it, it slips through.

Slipping and grasping cause severe headaches (no joke). Actually, "slip" and "grasp" don't really express the true nature. There is no grasping and there is no slipping. Only if you grasp can you slip.

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
Even nothing is within it. There is no place outside it. There are no limitations.

More limitations? Anything that cannot be exited is a prison. If there are no limitations, that is insignificance.

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
As above, so below isn't simply a maxim of position and relationship, but a revelation that All is reflected in each of its individual elements. Drops of light which contain a complete picture in and of itself.

The cell is the man? Yet, with proper chemical coersion and nurturing, it possibly could be.

Each drop may contain a complete picture but it is not complete. Yet, one could make a case that it is.

To wit:
There's really no telling how many times e^x (e=natural logarithm base) had been differentiated in the past nor any limit to how many times is could be. It always is e^x. The question is rather meaningless and absurd yet profound.

Extremes meet.

Originally posted by seagrass
political only in so far as it is questionable who wrote them who gets credit etc, and the people who surround them. You mentioned Mental Alchemy, so I went and found those principles in a search. Having no familiarity with MA.

Ah, very good then. However, that is not the be authors' controversy.

Ex uno disce omnes - From one person learn all persons. (From one we can judge the rest)

Usually I've read it translated as "From one, know all". Personally, I changed it in my extra mini profile lines to "From all, know nothing." I have no idea if "Ex omnes disce nihilo" is proper Latin grammar.

To know thy self, is to know others.

The matrix we currently live in on earth, does not support spiritual growth or self-discovery, but instead seeks to separate ourselves from, you guessed it, ourselves (which in turn separates us from others).

Good thread guys.

Real therapy begins within you, the only way to heaven is from within.

Did Jesus not teach this?

This also leads to the premise that we are all one, and connected on every level even though many are unaware of the fact.

Then again, this world, this existence, is about contrast, and not everyone is at the level of "complete" freedom and able to devote their lessons or attention to the discovery of the self.

I've always wondered why such topics are not taught in school.

In my visions, I see such topics as the self, growth, the relationship between the mind and the external reality, and dream analysis being mandatory in school.

Instead, however, we are taught a bunch of facts, pushed to memorize pointless numbers and statistics that do not teach us to think for ourselves, but to work in a society that serves only a select few.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
That doesn't mean they're equally possible.

It doesn't mean either that they aren't.

Not all infinities are equal either in content or in cardinality.

How can there be more than one infinite? If there is an end there is a limit which makes it finite. Another hall of mirrors.

Talking of "within" and "without" about something that has no inside or outside makes me giggle, or does it have those qualities and that makes me scowl? Mess it! There's no point.

None whatsoever. Because even outside it we are still within it. There are only more facets of finite expression in infinite configurations.

Slipping and grasping cause severe headaches (no joke). Actually, "slip" and "grasp" don't really express the true nature. There is no grasping and there is no slipping. Only if you grasp can you slip.

The true nature of what? Slipping and grasping? True, only the action defines the action with any sensible truth. Though words are useful vessels to reach boundaries of understanding.

Anything that cannot be exited is a prison. If there are no limitations, that is insignificance.

What is a prison with no walls, no bars and no key? The only barriers are those we create. And whatever we create we can also destroy.

The cell is the man? Yet, with proper chemical coercion and nurturing, it possibly could be.

If (s)he chooses it to be so. It's whatever form it wishes to take, but any form will have it's limitations. Rules, if I may use the word without ruffling too many feathers. These are the agreements we make. The purpose being that without the boundaries, or rules (and rules being merely a map), where would we be?

Each drop may contain a complete picture but it is not complete. Yet, one could make a case that it is.

To me complete is simply what it is. Nothing can be left unfinished or undone for that is only a description of the state at which it exists in the moment. And to me every moment is a complete moment in and of itself.

If complete is only the encompassing of all that is, was and can be then there's already a place for that and we're (in) it.

To wit:
There's really no telling how many times e^x (e=natural logarithm base) had been differentiated in the past nor any limit to how many times is could be. It always is e^x. The question is rather meaningless and absurd yet profound.

And the closest the answer comes to truth is silence. In silence we turn inward, and so we are lead back to the only path we can know: ourselves.

[edit on 12/9/09 by TravelerintheDark]

Originally posted by Troy_
Then again, this world, this existence, is about contrast, and not everyone is at the level of "complete" freedom and able to devote their lessons or attention to the discovery of the self.

Thanks for bringing this up. I think it's the common misconception of most 'schools' up to this point, that knowing oneself requires the highest levels of discipline or commitment. That it takes a lifetime or more to attain.

But in fact it only takes a moment. A moment to know we are not wrong but that we simply are. To be honest with ourselves which doesn't imply that we need to be critical. Punishment and judgment are statements of a lack of acceptance. Accusations of wrongness are also from a lack of acceptance.

We only need to judge whether what we do propels us or holds us back. To determine the most efficient course of our energies. And the most efficient course always being the one that propels the most mass.

If a course only serves one need, is that efficient to leave the other needs behind? Is it efficient to run over obstacles (such as the people around us) or to do our best to avoid colliding with them? (Still it is nice to stop and say 'Hi' ) This is the source of greed and fear and selfishness and discontent in ignoring that we are more than the flesh and thinking the material is the only need we have. And so I think that is the first step to knowing oneself perhaps. To understand that we are more.

Again it really only takes a moment to love ourselves enough to believe we can do it.

We have everything we need here to support spiritual growth. It is our distractions, the ones we don't need that keep us from it. Those distractions can be anything that doesn't serve our true natures.

Originally posted by seagrass
We have everything we need here to support spiritual growth. It is our distractions, the ones we don't need that keep us from it. Those distractions can be anything that doesn't serve our true natures.

Absolutely. This plane is not a prison or a punishment. Our wants and desires are not the chains that bind us. None of these things would exist if they didn't serve a purpose. I think trying to escape, evade, avoid, deny, destroy any of this is rather pointless. At least it hasn't worked so far in human history.

To me the purpose is to find how to use our wants and desires to propel us rather than constrain us. To do that I believe we need to be responsible for the emotional attachments we make to them and why we seek them out.

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
How can there be more than one infinite? If there is an end there is a limit which makes it finite. Another hall of mirrors.

Some examples:
There is the set of positive integers which are odd.
There is the set of positive integers which are even.

Both are inifinite but not alike. Add them together and you can number them with themselves.

There are countably infinite sets where each element can be numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
There are uncountably infinite sets where its contents cannot, such as the number of points in the interval 0...1.

No mirrors at all as I see it. Quite simple really. Infinities are funny things.

Cutting to the chase, whatever you say about the ALL by definition must be correct. Perhaps that is a deeper glimpse of the truth of THE UNIVERSE IS MENTAL. It's absolutely insane.

What is a prison with no walls, no bars and no key? The only barriers are those we create. And whatever we create we can also destroy.

Yes, God can create a rock too heavy to lift and then lift it. Immoveable object meets irresitable force.

The prison is the infinitude of infinity. Break the barriers and your still trapped, perfectly free to move about within and beyond.

To me complete is simply what it is. Nothing can be left unfinished or undone for that is only a description of the state at which it exists in the moment. And to me every moment is a complete moment in and of itself.

Everything is incomplete. Simple as that. Complete is relative. Manfestation of things is negation of potential.


My humblest apologies for everything.


[edit on 9/12/2009 by EnlightenUp]

Lot of theory. It is all right if they work for you, but for me they have become somewhat of objection of reality. In fact, nowadays I often refuse to read or listen to those speculations; theories all are constructs of thought and further they go, the greater the error. For example: In this fine moment, you look up to the sky and see it's beauty; the alignment of celestial objects causes certain feeling of balance and silence in you - you feel tranquil and filled with joy. You say to yourself: "This is beautiful, I want to see it again!", perhaps you take a picture or something else - try to preserve the beauty of the moment. Or if you try to describe this beauty somehow in a literal way - all this will fail. It is already past and not reality. The sky you are describing isn't the true sky and it will never be. What reality is, theories can never catch. Theories build up on past experiences, and while they can more or less accurate - they will never be reality itself. Only silent observation can catch reality, but never should it attempt to alter the reality anyway, by giving classification nor categorizations. Take the reality as it is.

I have a cup of coffee, am sitting comfortably and enjoying the moment to the fullest extent. I have view outside, see some trees, their branches giving shelter for birds, our cat watching the birds curiously, probably thinking about food, who knows. I am quite tranquil, and see the beauty. That is my reality at the moment, and I don't quite care what it would be a moment after this. Carpe diem!

-v

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Some examples:
There is the set of positive integers which are odd.
There is the set of positive integers which are even.

Both are inifinite but not alike. Add them together and you can number them with themselves.

There are countably infinite sets where each element can be numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
There are uncountably infinite sets where its contents cannot, such as the number of points in the interval 0...1.

But yet alike. 2 is not 1, but 1+1=2.

Every element can contain every other element in the infinite variety of configurations. And every element is also a unique expression and finite.

If we add them together we've chosen an end point and created a finite set. We can't count or add infinity except infinitely which has no end. We can set any point at which to begin and any point at which to end and we express an element of infinity but not infinity itself which has no expression except in its individual elements.

No mirrors at all as I see it. Quite simple really. Infinities are funny things.

Yet it is nothing but mirrors endlessly reflecting the infinite. To not see the mirrors is simply not seeing that it is all a reflection and so the true self is lost. Know thyself begins by allowing the self to understand what are reflections and where you as a self begin and end and realize that we ourselves are only another reflection and so we begin to truly know.

We choose any point at which to begin and end, to facilitate a calculation of the expression in the infinite layers of expression.

And so I have chosen my points of expression and reached an end as I also agree with the reflections of v01i0.

0+0=0

[edit on 13/9/09 by TravelerintheDark]

reply to post by seagrass



Yes, that is why I said the "matrix" - which is the structured society that we live in - does not support spiritual growth. That does not mean we do not have everything we need, however.

My point is that there are those on this earth, those in power, who wish to deny us of our divine birthright as they seek to serve themselves only.

But then again, I believe the purpose of this earth, and this matrix, is for us to "rise" above the distractions in order to attain what is rightfully ours as we grow most through suffering. Unfortunately, not many rise above.

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
But yet alike. 2 is not 1, but 1+1=2.

Alike in certain properties is not eqivalent of course. Look closer though and discover 2 really does represent 1+1 and thus is not 1.

Every element can contain every other element in the infinite variety of configurations. And every element is also a unique expression and finite.

That's very fractal of you and exactly why it isn't complete. However, all the positive integers cannot be placed on the interval 0...1 even though there are an infinite number of points and neither can all the points be covered by all the positive integers.

If we add them together we've chosen an end point and created a finite set. We can't count or add infinity except infinitely which has no end.

Ah, but yes we can. We can take all integers x from -inf to +inf and interleave them with positive rational numbers x.5 from the same, add them to togther and make a set the same size as both originals that is greater in richness than either original alone but not really as it is in effect the same thing.

We can set any point at which to begin and any point at which to end and we express an element of infinity but not infinity itself which has no expression except in its individual elements.

Why talk of "infinity" then? It's an expression neither of individual elements nor kind. It's rather unspecific. I prefer a method to ponder it with precision.

Yet it is nothing but mirrors endlessly reflecting the infinite. To not see the mirrors is simply not seeing that it is all a reflection and so the true self is lost.

Yes, the integer sets can be chopped up and made into new complete integer sets via renumbering indefinitely, all like the original, nothing added, nothing lost in principle. Only a symbolic alteration has take place.

Know thyself begins by allowing the self to understand what are reflections and where you as a self begin and end and realize that we ourselves are only another reflection and so we begin to truly know.

I must admit I have my own way of thinking and relating to it. Perhaps it makes no sense the the majority or minority or whatever. That is fine. I do not fully understand your choice of expression either. I am ok with that and afford myself other models.

We choose any point at which to begin and end, to facilitate a calculation of the expression in the infinite layers of expression.

Yes, the center is everywhere and the circumference is nowhere.

0+0=0

I'm more of a -1+1=0 'er myself. Holy War!