When such news being released for public knowledge, it usually has a hidden agenda.

Oil at US$71 per barrel. Looks like the oil cartels are smiling.

For all we know this could be just like around the Kosovo War when Israel had meetings then in Moscow to negotiate Russia's sponsorship of Israel.
They came real close and finally US President Clinton backed off.

Even to this day Israel refuses to recognize Kosovo's independence.

Put yourselves in Russia's shoes. What a coup it would be for them against the US to get Israel as an ally and for the US to lose them. Israel offers quite abit in the fields of science and technology. Israel simply has capabilities that Iran could never offer Russia.

Israel is also not stupid. If it looks like the US is going to have an economic collapse, they will secure sponsorship from somewhere else more stable and less bankrupt. They are not going to ride on a sinking ship.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
They may be warning Russia to remove it's tech from Iran.

You got to be joking. Israel telling Russia what to do concerning Iran? In what position is Israel to dictate or warn Russia about anything? It is Russia who is in position to set terms for Israel not the other way around. If anything, Israel may be seeking Russia's cooperation on Iran, but in that case Russia will want something in return.

And what exactly do you mean by Russia's "tech in Iran"? There are no Russian military assets in Iran - only the tech that Russia sold to Iran legally.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
However, the stupid Russians are the ones who built the reactor and is giving them uranium to refine for it.

How does that make the Russians stupid? Is America stupid because it sells weapons and technology around the world, including deals with less-than-Democratic nations? If so, it would far outrank Russia in the stupidity scale.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
They also have sold Iran missiles and radar systems.

Newsflash - US at one point also sold/provided weapons to Iran. And to Iraq. And to Afghanistan.

Give one good reason (for Russia not for US obviously) why Russia shouldn't sell weapons to Iran.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Clearly, Russia only supports Iran and it's nuclear bomb program.

In what way does Russia support Iran's nuclear bomb program? Is Iran even constructing a nuclear weapon? Where is the proof? Is it in the same place where the proof of Iraqi WMD is?

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
There was no negotiations, just informing.

Oh - and you know this how? Israel has been increasingly cooperating with Russia over the past year. As supposed part of the cooperation deal, Russia agreed to not sell new jets and missiles to Syria, meanwhile Israel stopped selling weapons to Georgia and signed a deal to sell UAVs to Russia. The facts indicate that Russia is indeed cooperating with Israel to an extent.

Also relevant is the fact that relations between Israel and US are cooling because of Obama's recent criticism of Israel. Israel might be considering changing its long term priorities and foreign relations strategy. I seriously doubt that Israel will ever be Russia's ally, but it would benefit it to have good relations with Russia and not to step on each others' toes.



And in regards to yet another rumor of Iran war (what is it - the 50th rumor of war in the past two years?) - not happening. Plain and simple - there are too many factors in place to prevent a conflict with Iran, and that goes for both US and Israel. What was the goal of this visit then? I could speculate that Israel may be sending a signal to the US about its new strategy.


[edit on 10-9-2009 by maloy]

Easy. Russia may still has some technicians in Iran. Thats the techs they are speaking of.

And as far as what position is Israel in to tell Russia to remove the techs? Easy again my friend. Its like this: We're about to take out key nuclear installations in Iran and if you guys have any personnel there, you may want to get them out quickly.

Thats what position they are in. Israel isnt scared of Russia one iota and i dont know why they would be.

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
They may be warning Russia to remove it's tech from Iran.

You got to be joking. Israel telling Russia what to do concerning Iran? In what position is Israel to dictate or warn Russia about anything? It is Russia who is in position to set terms for Israel not the other way around. If anything, Israel may be seeking Russia's cooperation on Iran, but in that case Russia will want something in return.

And what exactly do you mean by Russia's "tech in Iran"? There are no Russian military assets in Iran - only the tech that Russia sold to Iran legally.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
However, the stupid Russians are the ones who built the reactor and is giving them uranium to refine for it.

How does that make the Russians stupid? Is America stupid because it sells weapons and technology around the world, including deals with less-than-Democratic nations? If so, it would far outrank Russia in the stupidity scale.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
They also have sold Iran missiles and radar systems.

Newsflash - US at one point also sold/provided weapons to Iran. And to Iraq. And to Afghanistan.

Give one good reason (for Russia not for US obviously) why Russia shouldn't sell weapons to Iran.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Clearly, Russia only supports Iran and it's nuclear bomb program.

In what way does Russia support Iran's nuclear bomb program? Is Iran even constructing a nuclear weapon? Where is the proof? Is it in the same place where the proof of Iraqi WMD is?

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
There was no negotiations, just informing.

Oh - and you know this how? Israel has been increasingly cooperating with Russia over the past year. As supposed part of the cooperation deal, Russia agreed to not sell new jets and missiles to Syria, meanwhile Israel stopped selling weapons to Georgia and signed a deal to sell UAVs to Russia. The facts indicate that Russia is indeed cooperating with Israel to an extent.

Also relevant is the fact that relations between Israel and US are cooling because of Obama's recent criticism of Israel. Israel might be considering changing its long term priorities and foreign relations strategy. I seriously doubt that Israel will ever be Russia's ally, but it would benefit it to have good relations with Russia and not to step on each others' toes.



And in regards to yet another rumor of Iran war (what is it - the 50th rumor of war in the past two years?) - not happening. Plain and simple - there are too many factors in place to prevent a conflict with Iran, and that goes for both US and Israel. What was the goal of this visit then? I could speculate that Israel may be sending a signal to the US about its new strategy.


[edit on 10-9-2009 by maloy]

[edit on 10-9-2009 by princeofpeace]

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Easy. Russia may still has some technicians in Iran. Thats the techs they are speaking of.

Why would Israel warn Russia to remove their contractors from Iran? First, there is no reason for Russia to comply with Israel's warning - the technicians will remain in Iran if Russia wants them to. If anything, Russia stands to gain from them remaining in Iran, because it serves as another deterrent to any attack. Second, Israel would compromise the element of surprise by talking to Russia - assuming they were talking about attacking Iran, which I am more than sure they were not.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
And as far as what position is Israel in to tell Russia to remove the techs? Easy again my friend. Its like this: We're about to take out key nuclear installations in Iran and if you guys have any personnel there, you may want to get them out quickly.

And guess what Russia's reply to such dimwitted warning would be: you kill out contractors in Iran, and we will supply Syria with enough S-300 and S-400 SAM systems to make Israeli Air Force's continued existance a matter of choice for your enemies.

As I said - even if Israel gave such a warning, Russia would no doubt ignore it. Russia has means to make Israel's life a living hell, if Israel chooses to screw around with it. Israel knows this better than anybody, and would not risk provoking Russia into helping its enemies.

Even making a statement like that by Israel concerning Russian technicians in Iran - would create a serious political split between Israel and Russia, and that is the last thing Israel needs right now.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Thats what position they are in. Israel isnt scared of Russia one iota and i dont know why they would be.

Why? Because Israel is tiny country neighboring some big enemies. These enemies would just love to get their hands on the newest Russian military hardware - which could jeopardize Israel's defensive and offensive capabilities. The S-400 and other complimentary mid and short range SAM systems alone would be a nightmare for Israel, especially if another war with Hezbolah breaks out.

No matter how capable Israel's armed forces are, Israel is not on the same level as Russia when it comes to international and political stature. Israel might not be scared of Russia literally, but it has to consider the consequences of angering Russia very carefully before doing anything.

But this is all a moot point anyway - because Israel is not planning to attack Iran, and is in fact currently working to improve relations with Russia. Israel has far more to gain by building good relations with Russia, than by attacking Iran.




The main reason why I believe Israel made no such warning to Russia - is because Netanyahu took the effort to visit Russia in person. In politics one leader doesn't visit another to make a simple warning - a phone call would do. A meeting between two leaders serves as a negotiation tool.


[edit on 10-9-2009 by maloy]

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Easy. Russia may still has some technicians in Iran. Thats the techs they are speaking of.

Why would Israel warn Russia to remove their contractors from Iran? First, there is no reason for Russia to comply with Israel's warning - the technicians will remain in Iran if Russia wants them to. If anything, Russia stands to gain from them remaining in Iran, because it serves as another deterrent to any attack. Second, Israel would compromise the element of surprise by talking to Russia - assuming they were talking about attacking Iran, which I am more than sure they were not.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
And as far as what position is Israel in to tell Russia to remove the techs? Easy again my friend. Its like this: We're about to take out key nuclear installations in Iran and if you guys have any personnel there, you may want to get them out quickly.

And guess what Russia's reply to such dimwitted warning would be: you kill out contractors in Iran, and we will supply Syria with enough S-300 and S-400 SAM systems to make Israeli Air Force's continued existance a matter of choice for your enemies.

As I said - even if Israel gave such a warning, Russia would no doubt ignore it. Russia has means to make Israel's life a living hell, if Israel chooses to screw around with it. Israel knows this better than anybody, and would not risk provoking Russia into helping its enemies.

Even making a statement like that by Israel concerning Russian technicians in Iran - would create a serious political split between Israel and Russia, and that is the last thing Israel needs right now.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Thats what position they are in. Israel isnt scared of Russia one iota and i dont know why they would be.

Why? Because Israel is tiny country neighboring some big enemies. These enemies would just love to get their hands on the newest Russian military hardware - which could jeopardize Israel's defensive and offensive capabilities. The S-400 and other complimentary mid and short range SAM systems alone would be a nightmare for Israel, especially if another war with Hezbolah breaks out.

No matter how capable Israel's armed forces are, Israel is not on the same level as Russia when it comes to international and political stature. Israel might not be scared of Russia literally, but it has to consider the consequences of angering Russia very carefully before doing anything.

But this is all a moot point anyway - because Israel is not planning to attack Iran, and is in fact currently working to improve relations with Russia. Israel has far more to gain by building good relations with Russia, than by attacking Iran.




The main reason why I believe Israel made no such warning to Russia - is because Netanyahu took the effort to visit Russia in person. In politics one leader doesn't visit another to make a simple warning - a phone call would do. A meeting between two leaders serves as a negotiation tool.


[edit on 10-9-2009 by maloy]

one by one.

Why would Russia want to remove it's technicians from Iran if Iran is going to be bombed?????

Oh, I don't know, so Russian does not get it's nuclear technicians killed.
(you are kiding us with that question or perhaps you feel it is ok to allow the Russian nuclear technicians to die???)

It makes Russia stupid because they are destroying the balance of power in the M.E.
The Muslims have the numbers and Israel has the nuclear weapons to counter the numbers.

News flash malo, the US did not sellnuclear technology to Ira or Iraq, only Russia is stupid enopugh to do that.

Hmm, lets see how Russia is supporting Iran's nuclear bomb program....
They built them a nuclear reactor
They are giving them uranium rods
(they may be selling them this, but the point is, of course the same)

Unfortunately, Russians cooperation with Israel does not seem to include Iran

I just can't see anyone attacking Iran it just seems foolish to me. Maybe if things become majorly dire economically or a the public suddenly becomes wise to the scum that is our ruling elite but atm many people are still zombies so i just don't see the need for this.

Not to mention they have a big swine flu op coming up.

Hmm, lets see how Russia is supporting Iran's nuclear bomb program.... They built them a nuclear reactor They are giving them uranium rods (they may be selling them this, but the point is, of course the same)

And a nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel designed for producing power have what to do with a nuclear bomb? It's efficient and clean energy, you don't think Iran is allowed to have efficient and clean energy?

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Why would Russia want to remove it's technicians from Iran if Iran is going to be bombed?????

Oh, I don't know, so Russian does not get it's nuclear technicians killed.
(you are kiding us with that question or perhaps you feel it is ok to allow the Russian nuclear technicians to die???)

Ok how's this scenerio:

Assume that Russia warns US to get its troops out of South Korea, because Russia is planning to bomb South Korea. How may I ask would the US reply to that?

It is not about Russia wanting to save the lives of its citizens abroad (not that it is a non-issue), but rather about Russia wanting to prevent an attack on Iran.

And perhaps you feel it is ok to allow Iranian nuclear technicians and other civilians to die?

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
It makes Russia stupid because they are destroying the balance of power in the M.E.

If that is what makes Russia stupid, what would it make the US considering the US helps such countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia?

And would you mind pointing out exactly how Russia's actions are destroying the balance of power in the Middle East? Or is your idea of "balance of power" that Israel and no one but Israel can possess nuclear weapons and the strongest military in the Middle East? In reality the balance of power in the ME was destroyed when the US took a renewed interest in the region under President Bush (both Bushes in fact). If there is anyone throwing Middle East off balance, it is the US that already invaded one large nation and created havoc and chaos for tens of millions of people.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
The Muslims have the numbers and Israel has the nuclear weapons to counter the numbers.

And how does Israel's US ally fit into the mess? Don't forget that Israel's power also lies in its close alliance with the US, and coupled with nukes and active US military campaign in the Middle East, the Israel-US axis is the single biggest threat to Middle East balance and stability. Or do you not like being called an "axis"?

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
News flash malo, the US did not sellnuclear technology to Ira or Iraq, only Russia is stupid enopugh to do that..

US did help Israel acquire nuclear technology, which was the cause of countries like Iraq and Iran wanting the technology for themselves. Also there is no proof that Russia sold Iran any nuclear WEAPON technology. Civilian nuclear technology and militarized nuclear technology are different matters. The US helped quite a number of countries acquire civilian nuclear technology.

Also, I ask again - how are Russia's actions stupid as far as Russia is concerned?

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Hmm, lets see how Russia is supporting Iran's nuclear bomb program....

Where did you get that they are supporting Iran's nuclear BOMB program? They are assisting in building a nuclear power reactor facilities.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
They built them a nuclear reactor
They are giving them uranium rods

And why can't Iran have those things? What gives the US, or Israel, or anyone for that matter the right to have those things and to deny that right for other sovereign nations?

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Unfortunately, Russians cooperation with Israel does not seem to include Iran

How do you know what it includes? Nobody knows the inside deals - not even the top experts in the field. It is all speculation.

First off, there's no proof of an Iranian nuclear weapons program. It doesn't mean they aren't nuclear weapon capable, but so is Canada.

Secondly what's your problem with them having nuclear weapons anyways? It will only mean that aggressive nations like Israel and the US will back off and leave them alone.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
First off, there's no proof of an Iranian nuclear weapons program. It doesn't mean they aren't nuclear weapon capable, but so is Canada.

Secondly what's your problem with them having nuclear weapons anyways? It will only mean that aggressive nations like Israel and the US will back off and leave them alone.

First off, lets clear one thing up, Nuclear power is NOT CLEANER.
It just leaves more dangerous waste for future generations to deal with. Whether you pump it into the sky as pollution, or bury it in the ground as nuclear waste, it's still not clean energy.

Secondly, the cost of creating and maintaining a Nuclear energy facility is far higher than the fossil alternatives. There is no way that at their current economic level Iran would be choosing Nuclear power over fossil simply for the civilian production of energy.
There is not a single nation that I am aware of that has developed a Nuclear plant and then NOT continued to militarise with it.

The harassment and monitoring it would require from other nations alone is enough to put a nation off of the idea if it were simply for civilian energy production.

And the reason they shouldn't have Nuclear weapons is simple; it's an unstable nation surrounded by equally unstable nations in a world of unstable nations with enough nuclear weaponry already in existence to destroy the planet thirty times over!

Saying "but they have them, we want them" is not adequate.

This is a country that recently kidnapped and killed god only knows how many of their own people to maintain a religious despotic regime. They have repeatedly threatened other nations. Going by their own previous actions, there is every reason to believe that the moment they have a Nuke available they'll chuck it at Israel.

I'm no fan of Israel (not in the slightest actually, see my sig) and there are not many governments on this planet that I have any respect for. The vast majority are corrupt, greedy, destructive and wholly abusive toward their own people as well as others. But this wouldn't affect those governments, it would affect their people, innocent people.

No, it might not be considered fair for some to have this capability and others not, but this isn't a fair world. I would rather see one nation weeping over their breakfast because they don't have a new toy to play with, than risk potentially seeing a mushroom cloud delivered by a fanatical regime.

I hope I have at least made you consider your position a little, and I hope you'll abandon your knee-jerk reactions about this in favour of some common sense.

Originally posted by detachedindividual

First off, lets clear one thing up, Nuclear power is NOT CLEANER.
It just leaves more dangerous waste for future generations to deal with. Whether you pump it into the sky as pollution, or bury it in the ground as nuclear waste, it's still not clean energy.

Secondly, the cost of creating and maintaining a Nuclear energy facility is far higher than the fossil alternatives.........

Great post - you got a star from me. It's nice to see well balanced arguments on here for a change. I also agree with all your points

Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Friday Iran must remain firm on its nuclear rights, as Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said any attack on the Islamic republic over its controversial nuclear programme would be "unacceptable."

We can only hope that mentalities and government/people relations improve very quickly. If Israel attacks Iran, you know we're getting dragged into it, short of a truth movement style revolution here. God only knows who else will want to blow off some steam, easy WWIII scenario if these idiots continue to make decisions on our behalf.

Originally posted by CuteAngel
You sound as though ur sure that the US has abandoned Israel, it's long ally.

No on the contrary - I am sure US will remain an ally of Israel for the foreseable future. That is no to say however that there aren't issues arising in the US-Israel relationship. And even if everything was still perfectly smooth between the two, it would still be smart for Israel to develop good ties with Russia. Nothing prevents Israel from cooperating with both US and Russia, and it could stand to benefit in a variety of ways.

Originally posted by CuteAngel
Atleast the US tries to police the region by supporting Israel

US is policing the Middle East region because of oil first and foremost. If the main priority for the US in the Middle East was helping Israel, it would not have allied with Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

On top of this, the US on several occasions has been seen by Israel as a thorn in its side. For example the US on numerous times pressured or even down right instructed Israel to stop military operations (whether against Hezbolah, Hamas, Egypt) at the most critical time. Of course there is more benefit than harm to Israel in its relations with the US - but problems do exist.

Originally posted by CuteAngel
what did Russia ever do apart from creating proxy wars by supplying weapons to middle eastern nations that are ruled by mad men and religious extremists.

That was not today's Russia - that was the Soviet Union. In pragmatic politics, it is not too useful to cling on to less than relevent history. For Israel what is important today is what Russia will do rather than what happened in the past.

And when did Russia supply religious extremists with weapons? How do you define "religious extremists" in that case?

Originally posted by CuteAngel
So it is clear that Israel most likely went to warn russia at a much higher level knowing who would get involved if russia intervened...

For one thing, it is almost certain that Russia will not directly interevene in the unlikely case that Iran is attacked. What Russia will likely do, is dramatically increase sales of arms to Iran and possibly Syria.

I also believe that US will not get directly involved in a conflict with Iran. Doing so could severely compromise the US efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Based on the recent news of the proposed UN resolution on new sanctions against Iran, I think Netanyahu went to Russia to try and convince it to support the resolution.

Originally posted by CuteAngel
How is this significant to the OP??? SK has not threatened russia and its allies of war, on the contrary Iran has threatened to get rid of the powers in Israel. SO no comparison here.

Iran stated that Israel should be gotten rid, it did not make a direct threat of action against Israel. And even if it did - how can Iran possibly destroy Israel? Everyone knows that Iran possesses no such capability, especially considering it is nowhere near Israel, and there are now US military assets between the two in georgraphical terms.

Originally posted by CuteAngel
Infact it was Saddam who initially proclaimed that Iraq had WMDs in fear of an invasion from Iran as well as its other enemies which caused the US to believe that Iraq had WMDs and was a threat to the world.

And if Saddam proclaimed that he had a death star in his possession would that be a reason to invade? Dictatorial regimes under threat commonly make bullsh*t claims about their non existant capabilities. US has very capable intelligence gathering, and there is no doubt in my mind that US intelligence has always been on top of what weapons Iraq (or NK for that matter) actually possess. Saddam's statements are no justification for the US attack, especially considering that US claimed to have concrete evidence.

Originally posted by CuteAngel
Seems like Russia is not interested in DIPLOMATIC relations and its not surprising...

When one nation instructs or warns another to do something - that is not called Diplomatic Relations. If Israel is to cooperate with Russia diplomatically, it must be on equal terms with both sides gaining something from the deal.

Originally posted by CuteAngel
As much as I hate war, war is sometimes the only solution available. Lets just hope this solution works!

Sometimes it is. Other times one is lead to believe that it is, when in fact there is another far less risky solution - do nothing and chill out. Was war the only solution when it came to Iraq? It seemed like it was at the time to many people.

Rushing head first into an armed conflict, especially against a nation the size of Iran, is a very foolish solution. The risk is tremendous, while the benefits are ambiguous at best. A preemptive strike against Iran should not even be a matter of discussion - because its effects would echo throughout Central Asia for decades to come.

There is nothing to really fear from Iran - in the extremely unlikely case that Iran ever attacks any US ally, the US has the capability to quickly destroy Iran's fighting capability and its functioning government. Iran knows this well enough - it values its existance more than it values Israel's destruction. All a preemptive strike would do is unite Iran, and in fact would strengthen the position of its leadership.



Why would you believe that such a solution would ever work? If history is to serve as a reliable referrence - it is not possible for US to win a war against a country the size of Iran.

[edit on 11-9-2009 by maloy]