Fifth Graders To Study Religion In School!! But Only One Religion, Islam!

reply to post by paxnatus


YES!

I don't know what more I can say, except if people are going to be taught about one religion, they should also be taught about all other religions, and also about all other non-religions.

Let's keep it balanced, if possible, for the sake of the kids.

Originally posted by paxnatus
Oh yes, typical rhetoric I stand up and say if you are going to teach one specific religion you must give all religions equal time

where did it say that this wasn't going to happen? where does it say that other religious beliefs aren't going to get equal time?

Why are young people 'taught' religion in schools at all?

How can you mark an exam on god when noone knows any of the answers?

Looked at objectively its not realy an 'academic' subject at all as the dogmas and beleifs of every religious sect/cult are all based on subjective opinion,speculation,conjecture,heresay,rumour and guesswork.

As one poster has already suggested ,why not have a separate 'mythology and superstition' workshop where students can learn about all the differing opinions including the Eskimo,Polynesian,Norse,Mayan,Rastafarian,Korean,Native American etc..
religions.

To just concentrate on the opinions of one abrahamic sect/cult seems quite unhealthy (and a little bias) to me -maybe its more about indoctrinating and conditioning youngsters into an organised proselytizing, dogmatic mindset rather than encouraging them to think for themselves.


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12


a religion is a set of codified beliefs about god, you can teach people about religions quite easily.

although it would be good to teach children about every different belief system on the planet, it is probably more practical to stick to the religions that have had the greatest social impact on the students lives.

reply to post by paxnatus


This is rather absurd, all the more reason we need to get government out of our schools. That's what I truly want to be in the Constitution, a separation of School and State but it will never happen with the Nanny-State that they've been setting up.

I don't get it, why just Islam? Who wrote this? I scarcely believe a whole bunch of politicians and parents, most of them Christian (I assume), got together and decided to teach their kids Islam. Or was this something slipped into the curriculum by one person when no one was looking?

It should be all religions and it should be in High School not 5th grade and it should be an elective not mandatory...

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights that expressly prohibits the Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion"

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause, ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

Additionally, in the 20th century, the Supreme Court held that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies the limitations of the First Amendment to each state, including any local government within a state.

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose. The first approach is called the "separationist" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferentialist" or "accommodationist" interpretation. The accommodationist interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

Prior to the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1868, the Supreme Court generally held that the substantive protections of the Bill of Rights did not apply to state governments. Subsequently, under the Incorporation doctrine the Bill of Rights have been broadly applied to limit state and local government as well.

For example, in the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet (1994), the majority of the court joined Justice David Souter's opinion, which stated that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion."

link:[en.wikipedia.org...]

link:[en.wikipedia.org...]

Again, this is not an argument on whether or not these kids should be taught Islam in school. I am simply stating that the kids should not be taught Islam EXCLUSIVELY.

Elementary school is not the place to be taught religion period. The church should be responsible for teaching organized religion, NOT the Government!

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by paxnatus
Oh yes, typical rhetoric I stand up and say if you are going to teach one specific religion you must give all religions equal time

where did it say that this wasn't going to happen? where does it say that other religious beliefs aren't going to get equal time?

In the pdf document I sited in my first post. It is the outline of the county curriculum to be followed by all fifth grade teachers in Chesterfield County Va.

the document is 106 pages and outlines the curriculum for all schools i.e. primary and secondary in the county. No where in the document does it say and all other religions will be taught. Here is a reprint fo what it says:

Teachers will discover basic information on the standard requirements for learning about a world religion, in terms of Islamic beliefs and practices, terminology and meaning in an individual, spiritual, worldly and social context. Teachers will examine the orgins of Islam, rise and spread of Islam, Islam and hemispheric interactions, as well as early modern and contemporary historical issues. Teachers will integrate cross curricular teaching of Islam through art and literature activities.

Pay attention to the phrase " learning about A religion" A, meaning one or singular.

Elementary school is not the place to be taught religion period. The church should be responsible for teaching organized religion, NOT the Government!

rubbish, religion is an important part of society and culture, a child should be taught about all the important aspects of the society in which they live. we're not talking about religious instruction here, we're talking about the facts about the religion.

[edit on 10/9/09 by pieman]

Originally posted by pieman

Elementary school is not the place to be taught religion period. The church should be responsible for teaching organized religion, NOT the Government!

rubbish, religion is an important part of society and culture, a child should be taught about all the important aspects of the society in which they live. we're not talking about religious instruction here, we're talking about the facts about the religion.

[edit on 10/9/09 by pieman]

In my last post I showed you where it said "A Religion" It does not say all or others or three it refers to A RELIGION MEANING ONE
I have documented this 3 times if you want to continue with this viewpoint please show me where in the document it says other religions will be discussed.

No, these kids will not be taught ABOUT Islam the sentence clearly says:

Teachers will integrate cross curricular TEACHING OF ISLAM through art and literature activities.

www.chesterfield.k12.va.us...

[edit on 10-9-2009 by paxnatus]

Originally posted by paxnatus
In the pdf document I sited in my first post. It is the outline of the county curriculum to be followed by all fifth grade teachers in Chesterfield County Va.

yes, but the section you are referring to describes a one day course instructing teachers on how to teach religious belief in schools. it says nothing, nothing, about teaching about islam in isolation.

the part you quote is directly preceded by the line

teachers will learn about the constitutional issues and background of teaching about religion in the united states

the course is clearly taking all the constitutional implications into account and the phrase "about religion" suggests the plural.

also the phrase "in terms of" means that islam is being used as an example to teach the principles required.

my question to you is, did you read the PDF and ignore the fact that constitutional concerns were clearly being addressed or did you just post someone elses spin without checking the information?


[edit on 10/9/09 by pieman]

only a comparitive religion class, should be taught in college, and as an elective, not mandatory. instruction in the belief of a mythical, all-powerful being from 2000 years ago does not belong in a modern classroom. a mandatory class in economics and how to handle money, would be far more instructive and useful.
if an adult wants to learn about religion, there is no limit as to where he can find out about it.

Religion should be introduced by the parents, not teachers in public schools. Why do people think it's ok for schools to raise their children? Lazy much? One of the biggest problems in this country is the lack of parental control and responsibility. People just spit out children like their puppies that they can just stick out in the backyard and forget about, someone will teach them and care for them, I'm busy, right? This does not belong in ANY curriculum!!!!!!!
Seems like the plan of some maybe to remove God from schools to leave an opening to convert children to Islam. I don't know, but I do know this doesn't belong in SCHOOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some of you are confusing, either by intent or omission, two kinds of teachings about religion ...

The first would be in the vain (bot not restricted to christianity) of catechism:

Catechesis (pronounced /ˌkætəˈkiːsɪs/) is an education in the faith of children, young people and adults which includes especially the teaching of Christian doctrine imparted, generally speaking, in an organic and systematic way, with a view to initiating the hearers into the fullness of Christian life.

The second would be along the lines of religious anthropology, where it is a simple matter of teaching ABOUT religions and not the teaching or indoctrination OF A religion.

Big difference ... one is indeed indoctrination and has no place in PUBLIC schools, constitutionally and ethically. The second is just general knowledge as important as history or geography.

Those who are screaming "separation of church and state" in this instance are apparently unable or unwilling to make this important distinction.


[edit on 10 Sep 2009 by schrodingers dog]

reply to post by schrodingers dog

The second would be along the lines of religious anthropology, where it is a simple matter of teaching ABOUT religions and not the teaching or indoctrination OF A religion.

Thank you for helping make my point. There is a huge difference in ABOUT and OF! The wording is crystal clear:

Teachers will integrate cross curricular teaching OF Islam through art and literature activities.

For once we agree! The indoctrination of children has no place in PUBLIC school!! Glad you are on the same side of this issue.

Originally posted by karl 12
Why are young people 'taught' religion in schools at all?

There's a very good reason to teach children about religion - how
can anyone understand history without a knowledge of it?
The changes in ancient egytian dynasties were driven by religion,
The fall of the Roman empire and the birth of the holy roman
empire, the crusades which brought mathematics and science
from the arab world drove the rennaisance. The inquisition lives
on today as muslim men are randomly grabbed, hooded (the
inquisition made their victims wear the Corazo -a hood) and
spirited away to be tortured (ordeal by water is now "water
boarding"). Religion is everywhere and colors our social mores
and politcal doctrines. An ignorance of religion makes the
populace easier to manipulate.
Don't learn religion and that's what we end up with, a world
where intolerance and hate are easily justified and manipulated
for politcal ends.
To each his own is my tenet, God comes to everyone differently
in their own way and time. Religion is a non-personal monolithic
structure of control that far too often becomes a tool for enrichment
rather than enlightenment, one reason I don't care for "prosperity
theology".

As one poster has already suggested ,why not have a separate 'mythology and superstition' workshop where students can learn about all the differing opinions including the Eskimo,Polynesian,Norse,Mayan,Rastafarian,Korean,Native American etc..
religions.
[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

I couldn't agree more. The more we learn of different cultures and
religions the more we see the marvelous diversity we have
among humankind. There is something to be learned from everyone,
my parents taught me that at an early age and I thank them for it.
We should do whatever it takes to make humankind - kinder humans,
and that starts with cultural understanding.

As for the OP's point I agree that you should not teach religion in
school unless you were to teach about ALL religions. Anything less is indoctrination by exclusion.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by Asktheanimals]

[edit on 10-9-2009 by Asktheanimals]

reply to post by paxnatus


LOL LOL

Sorry, at first I was up in arms thinking that this was completely unconstitutional. I was thinking "WTF! They're actually going to push this religion on a class in a public school?" But alas, as I read through the curriculum with an OPEN MIND I find yet again the knee jerk reaction that is all too common on this site and in many communities and groups today.

You are simply overreacting. THEY ARE NOT TEACHING ISLAM! They are going to teach ABOUT Islam. They have taught ABOUT Christianity. They have taught ABOUT Hinduism. Now they are going to teach ABOUT Islam and its history. It's not an indoctrination into the religion.

I took quite a few history of religion classes in school. I learned a great deal about many different religions and how most stem from each other including Islam's links to Christianity/Judaism and beyond.

They are not going to have these 5th graders on their knees 5 times a day facing east. Good God. This is a complete overreaction to a common theme in our classes. The separation of church and state is to separate the religious fanaticism present in virtually every religion. It does not mean we will close the minds of our children to the history of these religions.

So please, take my advice on this one, chill out and think it through. It is not a conspiracy to indoctrinate these children into what many illtrained people believe is the most evil of religions on this planet.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by dariousg]

reply to post by paxnatus


1. Nowhere in that quote does it state that Islam will be the "only religion taught".

2. There HAS NEVER BEEN an adequate separation of Church and State.

You need to change your misleading headline.

And then get some perspective instead of jumping on the "us v's them" bandwagon without thinking it through.

But that's just my opinion.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
reply to post by paxnatus

 

1. Nowhere in that quote does it state that Islam will be the "only religion taught".

2. There HAS NEVER BEEN an adequate separation of Church and State.

You need to change your misleading headline.

And then get some perspective instead of jumping on the "us v's them" bandwagon without thinking it through.

But that's just my opinion.

I have given this example 3 times! What is so hard to comprehend here? The sentence reads " Teachers will discover basic information on the standard REQUIREMENTS for learning about A world religion, (A means singular as in one) IN TERMS OF ISLAMIC BELIEFS and practices, terminology and meaning in an individual, spiritual, worldly and social context."

Do you see " MORMON, BUDDHISM ,WICCA, CHRISTIANITY, ATHEISM, HINDUISM, OR SATANISM? Listed as part of that curriculum, anywhere in the 106 page document? Please show me where it says ANY other religion will be taught. It doesn't, therefore common sense tells one that this is being taught exclusively

What is so damn special about Islam?

There is no us and them!! Please explain why you think it is acceptable to present ONLY one point of view as in one religion regardless of what that one religion is. It is completely biased!

What is misleading about my headline? Teachers will integrate cross curricular teaching OF Islam through art and literature!! The word used is OF Not ABOUT, big difference.

If we replaced the above sentence with Christianity instead of Islam the outcry would be heard "around the world"!! The hypocrisy would be unimaginable! My child can't mention the word God or have a silent prayer at a sporting event, but they can set their curriculum around the teaching of Islam?

right. how dare you educate someone about Islam in a day and age when it is villified across the globe thanks to Bush & Co. but i guess it doesnt matter, someone is always going to find something to rile them all up about.

what should be taught is how US interests used islamic extremists to do their dirty work since the cold war. america funded them, trained them(mujahadeen), put regimes more amiable to america in power. (shah of iran)

ill leave you religious zealots with a little john lennon. if people adopted this philosophy we wouldnt be reading this thread right now

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

reply to post by BlesUTP


You missed the entire point!!! This is not about the study of Islam, I could care less! It is the study of ONLY Islam and not other religion period; which shouldn't not be taught in school. I am not saying It is wrong to learn about another person's culture and their belief system, I am stating I think it is wrong to teach of ___________ religion (fill in the blank) and exclude all others.

The rest I will leave to you, it is your opinion and your entitled to believe as you wish.