Abortion will be covered in Obama's plan

reply to post by Epic Wolf

So is a"fetus" at 8 months elligible for death?

7? 6? 5?

Where do YOU draw the line at murder? Is it when the mass of tissue is still in the womb, or when it just comes out?

It floors me to hear all these pro-abortion people state that they can arbitrarily decide when its ok to abort, and when its not. 12 weeks is ok. 13 is not.

Who makes this stuff up?

Why can I kill my unborn child, but I might face jailtime if I blow away someone who just broke into my house?
Why do we have all these pills and meds when the police will throw me in jail for smoking a natural plant that grows in the dirt? We advertise Enzyte and Viagra all day on TV, but I'm to believe Mary Jane is the devil's plant? (Yeah, maybe it'll make ya "a little stupid", but I think pecker-pills make Smilin Bob A LOT STUPID.) Off topic? Not really. Unless you're blind to the inherent hypocrisy of things.

Originally posted by calihan_12
...so saying that abortions kill babies is like trying to tell me that everytime a man ejaculates he is killing millions of would-be babies.

May I direct your attention to the following video...
www.youtube.com...
...when a sperm gets wasted...God get quite irate!

Abortoin should not even be legal let alone paid for by the gov't. Instead of paying for abortions they should be paying for condoms!!!!!

Obama says Abortion is not covered by your taxpayer dollars. What's wrong with you people. Can't you read his lips. Maybe they will even temporarily remove the wording of the coverage from the plan. But it will cover abortion. Maybe he is thinking that our tax dollars don't really pay for anything after all, because the govt pays through fiat money so he's not really lying, or maybe he is just lying. He's done enough lying already to make it not really matter.

It really doe not matter what Obama is going to say. He is going to lie. When you can't trust your government you are in trouble. When your government lies to you and you can't do anything about it you are in trouble.

reply to post by m khan


Anyone who blanket "believes" in this president needs to have his/her head examined.

We all know politicians lie. But this one has turned itinto an art form!

reply to post by mikerussellus


No it wont be!

'Cause I heard Obama say it wouldn't be!

*wink*

reply to post by silo13


Oh. Well. . . if he said it then it must be true.

I'm sorry.

Can I pay more taxes now? I promise I'll be good. . . .

Originally posted by redhead57
I just fail to see why the "pro life" people really care what someone else does with their body or baby. I agree that if they were so concerned with the lives of the unborn they would do a bit more to feed, clothe and house the babies of poor mothers. The same ones that scream about how wrong abortions are and want every teen that gets pregnant or ever poor woman that gets pregnant to keep their babies, are the same ones that scream to have things like WIC and food stamps done away with. Like the life of an unborn is worth more than the life of a child.

Abortion is part of gyn care...period. If the Pro Life people stay out of my womb, I will gladly stay out of their churches.

I never understood that, either. Those kooky people who stand in front of the abortion clinic and try to block the people from going in and scream "murder". Where are they after the baby is born to a poor mother who has few resources, etc? Do they help at all? No, they're too busy judging others. Some people wanted me to go stand in front of an abortion clinic and protest, and I was like "no way". I honestly thought they were totally nuts! I think the decision should be between the mother and God, no one else's business. I think the government just sees it as population control.

Originally posted by Epic Wolf
reply to post by mikerussellus

 

I would agree, killing human babies is wrong and immoral. However, a fetus or a zygote are not babies.

One is a person who was born and has an age. We go not give out children ages based on the date of conception, because they are not born babies yet. Not even close. A fetus or zygote that is still in the womb is not a 'baby', it is still flesh that is part of the mother.

Otherwise, this just brings us back to this gem: "Masturbation/menstruation=the killing of babies in the (male/female) womb"

Well said Epic Wolf, once the umbilical cord is cut we have a new life. Until that point it is still part of the mother.

As far as I can tell the Pro-Lifers base their opinions on their religion. They can believe what they want so long as they don't impose their fairy stories on me, either directly or through legislation. Religion and government policy should not be mixed. Otherwise where do we stop? Who's beliefs shall we incorporate into law next? Islam, Hindu, Jedi or Leprechaun laws anyone?

Maybe a Pro-Lifer would like to define exactly what life is before arguing what we shouldnt kill? If I mix all the elements that compose a human in a dish is that a potential human or a potential life?

reply to post by mikerussellus


mikerussellus,

come now, my friend, does he lie more than Bush-Cheney? Before you say "yes" I can produce pages of lies and source them. Does he lie more than Clinton? Same there. We can keep going back to Bush Sr and Reagan (although with Alzheimer's I'm not sure if they were lies or he really didn't know what he was saying).

Lies are to politicians what paint is to artists.

Beware anytime a politician claims to be on your side. It is a Trojan Horse used to make you lower your defenses.

reply to post by LightFantastic


All legalities aside...

I feel that all life is unique and science backs this up. Whether it is a sentient human in the womb or just a pre-human collection of cells, it is unique. Life, as evolutionary scientists tell us, seems to want to survive. Plants lean towards the sun. Trees set off "notes" when another tree is cut down. Fetuses move away from the suction.

"Things" want to live.

Now, that is beyond religion. That is science. Where religion comes in is taking about a "soul", and the morality of taking a life that did not lay itself down to be taken.

I believe in the eternal soul, so my problem is not with death, but suffering. I don't want anything to suffer. Unlike some, I think animals have souls, too. My desire for all things is to have their moment in the sun. Are cows less cute than dogs? If they had paws instead of hooves and could rest them in your lap we might look differently towards them.

Ahh, anyway, I am in love with life and all things in this world, so it breaks my spirit that the uniqueness that will never be replicated will be lost without ever having its moment.

It isn't that religion is telling me this, for to be dead is to be with God. But we are here in this plane of existence for a reason. In fact, to me, it would be even worse if I believed there was no afterlife.

It's like that Whitney Houston song she sang for the Olympics.

Give me one moment in time...

I think every "thing" deserves its moment, and it saddens me that we can't give creatures that chance--that we seek to snuff them up before their moment is even done.

Each day I live
I want to be
A day to give
The best of me
I'm only one
But not alone
My finest day
Is yet unknown

I broke my heart
Fought every gain
To taste the sweet
I face the pain
I rise and fall
Yet through it all
This much remains

I want one moment in time
When I'm more than I thought I could be
When all of my dreams are a heartbeat away
And the answers are all up to me
Give me one moment in time
When I'm racing with destiny
Then in that one moment of time
I will feel
I will feel eternity

Just wanted to way in on a couple of points.

First, forcing one person to pay for another person's abortion is wrong. So is forcing one person to pay for another person's car is wrong (cash for clunkers, latest I heard on that-$4500/car actually cost us $42,000/car-awesome management their). Forcing a person to pay for pre-emptive war is wrong.

Our Federal Government is the NEW EMPIRE and do not try to argue that point. You will lose.

Divide and Conquer. They are doing so well.

For people to protest outside an abortion clinic is idiotic, unless one is not protesting but trying to teach someone the word of God. Forcing ones own beliefs on another, I believe, is a SIN of pride.

More adoptions go unfulfilled each year than abortions that happen.

This is about Eugenics, Planned Parenthood was created by a Eugenicist.

BUT LIKE I SAID-DO NOT FORCE ONES BELIEFS ON ANOTHER BUT ALSO DO NOT FORCE ME-TO PAY FOR WHAT I THINK IS MURDER!

Originally posted by A Fortiori

Ok I see your point. So how do you feel about the millions of lifeforms you murder every time you tread on the grass, when you shower etc. These bacteria communicate and struggle to survive like the rest of us. Everyone is a murderer.

A human being actually comprises more bacterial cells than human cells so you could say we are bacteria with a human bag holding them all together. It would be logical to say that when you kill a human you are mainly killing bacteria.

What level of lifeform would you say has no soul, and why?

Please don't think that I take abortion lightly. It is always a difficult choice for a woman that will affect them for the rest of their life. But they should have the choice.

Originally posted by LightFantastic

Originally posted by A Fortiori

Ok I see your point. So how do you feel about the millions of lifeforms you murder every time you tread on the grass, when you shower etc. These bacteria communicate and struggle to survive like the rest of us.

They are "life" is my opinion.

Again, I am a spiritual person so I believe that everything will return to source, but there is a purpose (maybe evolution, maybe reincarnation) for every sentient creature on this planet, or potential creature on this planet. Be it that this big cat is needed to keep down the prairie dog population, or the polar bear to keep down the seals. Maybe that deer needs to eat a certain weed...all things have purpose. The bacteria helps the higher lifeforms from coming down with further disease, or even give disease to potentially remove weaker "forms" from reproducing.

That life within the womb has a purpose as the top predator in the food chain, and potential purpose (provide the cure for cancer, become a musician, a warlord...). When it's life is taken, and, yes, it is "life", that purpose is destroyed.

Everyone is a murderer.

No. Everyone is a destroyer.

A human being actually comprises more bacterial cells than human cells so you could say we are bacteria with a human bag holding them all together. It would be logical to say that when you kill a human you are mainly killing bacteria.

If you were cynical, certainly.

The argument of cellular construction was never my point. Uniqueness was my point. If it makes you happy then, that particular set of human and bacterial construction will never come again.

What level of lifeform would you say has no soul, and why?

I am rather gnostic in my view so I would say that everything that lives and does not live has the spark of the Divine.

Please don't think that I take abortion lightly. It is always a difficult choice for a woman that will affect them for the rest of their life. But they should have the choice.

Your opinion is that they should have a choice based on what your understanding of the Universe is. What if you are wrong? What if the Muslims are right? What if, since you speak of bacteria, the Jains are right? The Buddhists, the Hindus, the Gnostics, the Catholics...what if any of them are right? Then it is more than a collection of cells that has been destroyed, it is a divine soul that was extinguished before it could fulfill its karmic duty.

What if the atheists are right? What if, God forbid, there is nothing else out there? To me, that would be even worse for it would mean that the beings total shot at existence for eternity is removed forever.

My opinion is that if something exists, there is a purpose and reason why. If vegetables are able to sustain and nourish the lifeforms above it, that is their purpose. If the sperm and egg are able to come together in fertilization, the very purpose for sex in the first place, and that fertilization does not end in miscarriage there is a reason for it and it should fulfill that purpose.

Beyond the uniqueness, beyond the purpose of the individual life form, there is also the ramifications to society. When we decide that wolves have no purpose, for example, it has an effect on the landscape and environment that we are deciding for future generations. I ask you, who are we to do that?

I brought up eugenics before because of the new movement for designer babies. What happens when we decide that we only want a race of superhumans? What happens to the gays, the un-athletic kids, the un-pretties? Our Canadian friend would say that is eugenics and a different topic, but it isn't. It is an unintended consequence to thinking of life in the womb as disposable if it is "unwanted". What if you don't want a gay child?

This is, obviously, an issue that has been decided by our nation, and has become rule of law. I am not arguing whether or not it is legal. I am stating my own discomfort with it. I am stating that I feel that this is an issue that most people have not "white boarded" it out to the full conclusion. My opinion only, I think the issue is far more complex than Pro Choice/Pro Life. For example, there is another thread on here about how men that stated they wanted the girlfriend to have an abortion should have the choice to not pay child support. Another example, as I stated above, is eugenics.

It is my personal conviction that we are not a nation that values life more than we value comfort.

Now, I am not out here to convince anyone. Those posting have made up their minds already and are implacable. I just wanted to state my own thoughts on the subject as have others.




[edit on 13-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

Originally posted by A Fortiori

Originally posted by LightFantastic

Excellent post, thanks for helping me to understand reasoning that I sometimes find illogical.

reply to post by LightFantastic


You're welcome.

I can only speak for myself, however, everyone believes so differently.