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Abortion will be covered in Obama's plan

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posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 08:55 AM
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It doesn't really matter if you are Pro or not - gals will ALWAYS find a way to abort.

I am (really) older and remember the back-room dirty motels that were used. Doctors that were less than qualified. Botched proceedures that killed young females. Girls that tried to self-abort with a coathanger.

So do I believe that abortion should be covered - yes
Do I believe Abortion is a PERSONAL choice - yes
Do I believe it should be SAFE - yes.
Do I believe that females will continue to seek out ways to abort - yes.

If you don't believe in abortion - fine - don't get pregnant in the first place. Or have the baby and either keep it or give it up for adoption.

Don't force your beliefs on others. It is a medical proceedure and should be carried under steril conditions in a safe environment - not a back room somewhere.




posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by mikerussellus
breast enhancements are also legal. And a medical issue, should we include that as well?


That's a cosmetic issue.


Originally posted by mikerussellus
When you create a life though, it stops being a personal choice.


I'm not going to argue the law with you, nor when a "life" begins. That's been done to death and never gets anywhere.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by rogerstigers
 


But when it involves the rights of another individual, it stops being a "personal" choice.

You want to smoke? Smoke.
You want to eat red meat? Eat.
You want to vote this way? Vote.

All personal choices.

You want to kill someone?

eerrrrrrrrr. . . it stops being a personal choice.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by mikerussellus
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


When you create a life though, it stops being a personal choice. I can make a personal choice about riding a motorcycle without a helmet, but when I force you to make the same choice, it stops being personal.

Same with the life of a neonate. What gives you (or anyone else) the right to decide whether they live or die?



And here is where the legal definition of an entity that is seperate and eligable for protection under the laws of man comes in. Yu aren't a citizen until you are born (otherwise we would all be citizens of the countries that we are concieved in). We have some protections and laws around killing or injuring a woman who is pregnant that are differant from a woman who is not, but in the end, I don't believe that the baby is a seperated and distinct entity until it is out of the womb breathing air.

Course, I also feel that if a baby is aborted, the soul/spirit simply packs its bags and moves on to the next opportunity. *shrug*



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by mikerussellus
So your ok with murder, just as long as it's not you getting killed?


Let me add what I find to be a very interesting adjunct to this conversation. It comes from a great blog called Waiter Rant, and I highly recommend it even as I cite the following except from it. The writer is discussing the issue with a friend...


“Did I ever tell you about the time my godfather spoke at an anti abortion rally?” I ask.
“He was a priest wasn’t he?”
“Yeah.”
“What did he say?” Beth asks.
“Well, it was an ecumenical rally and people were really whipped into a fire and brimstone frenzy,” I say, remembering. “You know, these loose women are sinners, they’re going to hell, etcetera.”

“Man,” Beth breathes.

“So it’s my godfather’s turn to speak…………..” …..and shuffling into the pulpit, resplendent in his Byzantine vestments, my godfather looks over the top of his glasses upon the congregation. “I have heard many of you talking today about God’s punishment, His wrath. How you’re good Christians because you hate abortion. But, after listening to the people gathered here, I can’t help but notice that some of you harbor a vituperative attitude towards the very women you want to help.”

People start shifting in their seats uncomfortably. “I know many of you, like me, are here because you want to defend the unborn. Some of you are motivated by the deepest conviction.” Another pause.

“But some of you are here because you love to hate.” Shocked silence. “Are you here because you really want to help the unborn?” my godfather asks. “Have you taken an unwed mother into your home? Feed her? Cared for her baby? Or are you here because this is where your friends are? Are you here to indulge in a comforting sense of moral superiority? Smug in your certitude you’re not going to hell?”

Everyone is listening now. “Let me tell you about something about Hell,” my godfather says, “We know there’s a hell because Jesus said there’s one. But we don’t know if anyone’s actually in it.” My godfather lets that thought sink in. “What’s more,” he says, “Jesus never liked hypocrites. He once said, ‘They do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people’s shoulders, but will they lift a finger to move them? No! Every thing they do is done to attract attention!”

Now some of the congregants look angry. “Let me ask you something. Are you relieving these women of their burdens? Or are you adding to them with your self righteousness? Are you helping or hurting? Because if all of your fervor is directed towards feeling good about yourself, if it’s about getting attention, if its about how you’re better than someone else - YOU ARE WASTING GOD’S TIME!”

A couple of people get up to leave. Undaunted my godfather continues. “The Lord has never been welcome in the house of the righteous and the certain. Instead He walks amidst the damaged and the confused. To Him, the one that is lost is a treasure beyond price. Who are we to judge these women? They are precious treasure. Love, not hatred, is what they need.”

His words reverberate through the church. People are staring at the floor. Some shake their heads in disagreement. Others look thoughtful.

“Remember, the mercy of God is radical and boundless,” my godfather says, “And I thank God everyday that He is more merciful than you or I will ever be.”

My Godfather steps down from the pulpit. I don’t think he was invited back the next year.
waiterrant.net...


Perhaps that better explains my thoughts...



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:01 AM
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reply to post by mikerussellus
 


Did you open this thread to start a bashing contest about abortion or to talk about how the health care will impact abortion.

Because so far the only posts you have has been about your pro choice stance.

I guess this was too good to be truth, have fun, usually this type of thread brings a lot of starts.




posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:04 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


How else is life created?

___________________________________________________________


Abortion, in my mind, is bad. Can we legislate morality? Nope. Been done, at least tried. If we are going to end abortions then we have to start in the homes, in the schools, we need to start educating "morality".

-by the way, this got me kicked out of college republicans because I felt that we couldn't legislate morality-

I just don't feel that tax payers, especially in the Obama plan should have to pay for it. Whether you agree with it or not, especially if you don't why should you be forced to pay for it?



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


Fine, note to everyone, don't star/flag me


I just wanted to point out that even if you don't agree with the issue of abortion, you get to fund it now, with the Obama plan.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:07 AM
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reply to post by rogerstigers
 


And yet, if you kill a pregnant woman, you are charged with two deaths.

Ironic.



[edit on 9-9-2009 by mikerussellus]



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Well said.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:10 AM
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Wow. This is such a sticky subject. I hate touching on this stuff, it's such a hot issue.

Things aren't black and white anymore. Should men have a right in there somewhere?

Yes.

But the world is changing (as much as I hate it). Kids don't mean marriage anymore. Doesn't mean commitment or responsibility. And the adults have become the most irresponsible.
I just wonder why people don't discuss such things before sex, as to what they would choose if an unintended pregnancy occurs.

But I guess such talk would ruin countless, passionate one-night stands.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Because so far the only posts you have has been about your pro choice stance.


Marg, you're a genius! Mike, you are making a choice. YOU are pro-choice. As long as it's YOUR choice.
You just want to take everyone else's choice away.

As far as the tax thing, that's been discussed to death, too. There's plenty of stuff I don't want my tax dollars going to, either. WAR for one. But we don't get to choose where our tax dollars go, unfortunately. Because I'd much rather fund education and birth control and even abortion than war.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:16 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I make no bones about my personal belief. I am anti-abortion. -duh-

But if Obama care goes through, my "choice" will become mandated.

BH, you bring up a good point, if anti-war folks can protest, scream that it is wrong to fund something they don't believe in, shouldn't I be able to do the same? Why shouldn't I be given the oppourtunity to try to stop something before it is legislated?



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:18 AM
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Abortion will be covered in Obama's plan an its not your standard abortion. They will be aborting all of our grandparents and anyone else that has a terminal illness.

You think this is just about unborn children? It is immoral to force tax payers to commit murder of the unborn but we are also going to be forced to commit murder of the elderly and terminally ill.

Make no mistake. Obam is as evil as they come. He will be killing innocent people young, old and unborn and in our name. Obama is the new hitler and shame on us if he is allowed to do this.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by mikerussellus
 


Did you open this thread to start a bashing contest about abortion or to talk about how the health care will impact abortion.

Because so far the only posts you have has been about your pro choice stance.

I guess this was too good to be truth, have fun, usually this type of thread brings a lot of starts.


My responses has been dictated by so many pro-abortion posts. I felt that, in order to illustrate why mandated funding for such a contraversial issue is wrong, I had to explain my position on the subject.




posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by northof8
 


You bring up a good point. Abortion is because they don't want to take care/can't take care of the infant.

How would it be different with the elderly?

Wish I could star ya' twice!



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Thanks!! you are a genious too, my friend more than you think when it ocmes to debating so much misinformation on politics out there.

Well, remember when we were so up in arms againts the bailout here in ATS BH? well we were opposing to it, but still we got it regarless of how the population fought against it.

So when it comes to what we the people want, like abortion or not abortion in the health care bill, that is something beyond our reach.

As a medical procedure it will be covered like many other medical procedures that I am against it.

But hey why one and not the other.

I am against dispensing viagra for sex enhanment with my tax payer dollars? if the health care reform pass, also I am against life style choices that causes health problems, but hey can I do something about that?

No, we don't, actually if we are to only target one subject like abortion it will not be fair when its so many other health care issues that will fall into the health care bill and we all will be paying for it want it or not.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by mikerussellus
we need to start educating "morality".


We DO educate morality - in our homes. You just want everyone to have the same morality as you have. Sorry. There's a choice about that, too.


Originally posted by mikerussellus
I make no bones about my personal belief. I am anti-abortion.


Because that's what you CHOOSE.



But if Obama care goes through, my "choice" will become mandated.


No it won't! You will NEVER be forced to get an abortion.

I had a similar discussion with my girlfriend one time. She was also "pro-life". I asked her to imagine a future where the US is heavily over-populated and there have been laws enacted that allow only two children per household. Imagine she has 2 children from a previous marriage but would just LOVE to have one with her new husband, but the law prevents it. Miracle of miracles, she gets pregnant, even though she's using birth control... The government steps in an mandates an abortion.

Does she want the choice NOW? Or does she want the government to make that choice for her? It all boils down to the question: Do you want the government making reproduction choices FOR YOU, or do you want that choice for yourself???



Why shouldn't I be given the oppourtunity to try to stop something before it is legislated?


And you're trying to stop it by posting on ATS about it?

reply to post by northof8
 


... and scene! The thread becomes an Obama bash thread, which it was meant to be all along. Lord knows we don't have enough of them!



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


There have been so many topics on the healthcare bill, but none have touched on this aspect.

Items such as, privacy, RFID's, death panels, penalties, etc.

Why should this be any different? There is an oppourtunity to stop this bill. Obama is speaking tonight -wheee-
and is going to try to sell it again.

Among the hundreds of things that are wrong with this bill, mandated payment for abortion is another.

If catholics are on the plan, they will be forced to pay for something they strongly disagree with.

That fact that other things are mandated doesn't make it right.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by mikerussellus
 


The health care reform will be passed, that is not doubt in my mind and it should not be in any body's else mind, this the legacy of the Democrat party, the Obama administration and now the late Kennedy.

So it doesn't matter what we are debating here or not, is going to fall just into opinions.

We will have a health care reform by the time the new year comes.

So the only thing that bothers me so far is not about abortion, what will be covered or not, but the public option, this health care bill should not be pass without public option..

Beside that we are all to pay for what we don't like along with what will find is fair to pay.

Remember if you work you pay for Medicare and Medicaid and is not up to you to tell the government who or what is covered in it, they take the money and that is the end of it.

Sad itsn't it.



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