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Alternatives for firearms

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posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:01 AM
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I see alot of posts where it's stated that the member cannot actually train with a firearm. It might be helpful to know that there are a number of alternatives which can perform every function (if not more) than a gun.

Personal Protection: You don't need a gun to protect yourself from a gunman. Self defense against a gunman is pretty straightforward. Get into a position where you can't be shot, or take control of the gun. You don't have to take possession of it, but you do need a firm control on where it's pointing. It is my opinion that a knife is much more dangerous than a gun. Why? A knife is dangerous no matter who is holding it and no matter which way it's pointed. You can't control a knife blade as you can a gun barrel. A knife has no recoil. A knife makes no sound to track. A knife doesn't run out of ammunition.

The military K-Bar is a one of the most useful survival tools you can own. If you can, pass up the stainless and go with a carbon-coated blade as they are easier to conceal. If a K-Bar is not your style, consider the following alternatives.

1. Throwing knives. These are inexpensive (usually USD10.00/3), readily available and pretty fun to use. Learn to use them properly. The over-hand throw you see on television is not very accurate and the dynamics of impact is laughable. If done right, an underhanded throw has more power and insane accuracy. The balance of the knife is very important as it will effect impact more than anything. Slightly higher weight in the blade is usually preferably as it will assist in the knife's position when it hits the target. A hilt-heavy knife is pointless unless you intend your throw to inflict blunt-damage. Do not swing the arm, but flick. The knife should travel a straight path from starting position to release and complete only a half-rotation before hitting the target. This is assuming your target is at a middle-range (About 10-15 yards). At close range, accuracy isn't as important and I've seen overhand throws that were pretty devastating. This is more about what you are comfortable with. You'll learn to range your target and adjust your throw appropriately. The benefits of learning to use throwing knives are substantial. You can't run out of ammunition, it's not a common form of combat, it is accurate if done properly, and it's an inexpensive form of target practice. (I'm avoiding specific phrases for a reason.)

2. Shuriken- Chinese throwing stars. The actual translation for the word is 'sword hidden in the hand'. While the throwing star is a type of shuriken, a steel rod, three- and four-point stars, and even nails can be used. Aerodynamics is important. Use of a shuriken is simple. Throw it. With bo-shuriken, (that's the spikes) the same rules apply as knife throwing. With stars (Hira is apparently their name... even I learned something here), it's a simple matter of throwing it accurately. Most have directed points, so the position you hold the shuriken will effect impact. You have to hold it a certain direction to all it's spin to produce impact sink. Use here is much simpler, but you'd be surprised how difficult it is to master. Wind will effect your throw, depending on the weight and thickness of the shuriken. There are schools of martial arts which teach their use. Consider instruction.

3. Axes. One of the most useful tools ever invented by man. Not very accurate for throwing unless you REALLY know what you're doing. I never got much practice, but I've seen them used to great effect.

4. Bow-and-arrow. Standard bows can be cured wood and layers of compressed, adhesed wood. The making of an actual non-compound bow can be difficult, but you can figure it out if you have to. (Unless you need a bow that is made of adhesed, cured woods... then you need a pro). Compound bows use a system of pulleys to increase the mechanical output of the bow. A 'draw' is the amount of force necessary to pull the string into a firing position (knocking). (I'm not sure how a 25lb draw would be said in English terms...) When knocking an arrow on EITHER type of bow, assuming the bow will be near-vertical when shot, do not knock the arrow on the palm-side of the bowgrip. Many many beginners do this. The bow (unless designed otherwise) should be slightly angled, the arrow positioned behind the string on the knuckle-side of the hand holding the bow-grip. At a slight angle, the knuckle will serve as a supportive brace. Point, shoot. Practice. We can go into detail if you want, but these are the basics.

5. Staff. A bo-staff and a quarterstaff are just about the same thing. Some are tipped in iron, but almost all are made of hardwoods. A staff is extremely useful in that it can serve as a walking support, defensive weapon, and basic tool. A staff, for you, must be of appropriate length and weight. Start with one that reaches to just above your bicep, weight appropriate to your musculature. Defensively, it can be used to block, arrest an attacker from a distance, or as a club if swung with sufficient force. My experience with staffs so-so, but it serves the same purpose as an M16 that is out of ammo. (Fix bayonets... you have no idea how hard a fixed bayonet is to use as a weapon against an intelligent opponent.) A staff can also double as a fishing-pole, lantern stand, crude ladder, source of leverage, 1/2 of a litter, support beam, or... if it gets cold... flint+tender+your staff... a good twenty to thirty minutes of life-saving warmth.

There is a saying... anything in the hands of a Marine is a weapon. Even as a Marine, I never truly appreciated this until another Marine used a payphone on me. I wish that were a joke. As a weapon, for the creative mind, anything can be used. A spoon, a tire, an empty cigarette box. There are MANY alternatives to firearms. Some just as lethal, others twice as useful.

Questions?




posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:16 AM
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Good post.
I am wondering however if an air rifle would be adequate for hunting small game and as a deterrent for 2 or 4 legged predators. Since I can't purchase a gun right now. would it be worth it, until I could or would it just be a waste of money.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:21 AM
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An air rifle should work fine for deterring raptors (I assume that's the 2 legged predator
) Make sure you do your research. If it's CO2, check out the reviews. If it's a pump rifle, try to find out who manufactured the compression chamber/cannister (This is where you really need the quality). Either should be able to bring down small game, but if these raptors really want at you, a pellet in the thigh might not be enough to deter them. Better than nothing, though!



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:29 AM
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great post. I was just thinking about getting myself a good knife this weekend.

I'm starting to prepare myself for the upcoming winter. Hopefully things don't get out of hand.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:46 AM
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reply to post by Arrowmancer
 


Personally the best alternative to firearms i have found is Martial Arts, if a person has a gun and some distance there is nothing you can do, but try to get away.. if they are close like pointing a gun at your head, that is fairly easy to disarm them and take their gun before they know what happened. Plus anything can be used as a weapon as long as you know the basics for defense

I currently take classes in kenpo, mma/shootfighting, modern arnis and muay thai kick boxing. .. Who needs a weapon when you have your own hands and feet.

There are lots of videos on youtube to get a basic understanding of many different typs of martial arts

i am at work right now so i cannot post specific videos as access to youtube is unavailable, although i do have access to google video, so here is a link to an example of kenpo

www.dailymotion.com...

[edit on 9-9-2009 by LostOnEarth2012]



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 03:01 AM
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reply to post by Arrowmancer
 


For a good knife, I reccomend the SOG Seal Pup or just the SOG SEAL if you like a bigger knife.

I got a SOG seal pup a couple months ago, and while the sheath leaves much to be desired, it's the nicest knife that I've ever held.

The kabar is nice, I also own one of these.. However I find its very big and bulky. Good for generating a lot of force, and gutting someone however much harder to control. In a wilderness survival situation this would probably be my choice over my sog seal pup.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 03:36 AM
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Russian special forces have a knife with a small charge in it, ... that they can detonate to turn the knife into a projectile, ... so bad ass.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 06:50 AM
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Originally posted by Arrowmancer.

Personal Protection: Why? A knife is dangerous no matter who is holding it and no matter which way it's pointed. You can't control a knife blade as you can a gun barrel. A knife has no recoil. A knife makes no sound to track. A knife doesn't run out of ammunition.

I like these knives for combat. For fighting they are better then a K-bar
Applegate-Fairbairn Fighting Knife.
Gerber Mark II
A good fighting knife has to have a good Quillion. This protects your hand from sliding up the grip onto the blade if you hit bone.
In a knife fight your hand will get wet with sweat or blood and you need a knife with a good Quillion.
A leather wrap helps.
A dubble edged blade is the best as you can swing it ether way and cut.
In the single edge knives, a knife of the Tanto type with a good Quillion and a smooth spline are good.
Stay away from knives with saw blade splines these can catch on fabric and tissue/bone and make them hard to withdraw.


1. Throwing knives. Take a piece of 1/4 by 1 inch bar stock about 6 to 7 inches long. Find the center and cut a 60 degree point on one end and sharpen.
Round the other end and drill a half to 3/4 inch hole.
then take 3 foot of webbing or heavy ribbon and dubble it through the hole to make two streamer these can be rapped around the bar till thrown.

When thrown these streamer will stabilize the blade

2. Shuriken- Interesting trick, if you take the metal data disk from a hard drive and sharpen the edge these make good Shurikens.

3. Axes. to big, now a Tactical Tomahawk that is something else. there you might have a good weapon against someone with a knife.i don't know how it would throw.
www.gggaz.com...
www.armorysupply.com...

4. Bow-and-arrow. I would tend to like a crossbow better.
Smaller and easier to build and there are plans on the internet.
When i was a teen i built one from a auto leaf spring. took many hours sawing the taper on each end of the spring with a hacksaw till i could get it right but it had power.

5. Staff. I like a two piece staff about 6 foot long.
This can be taken apart for storage and use as two 3 foot long Kali sticks.
When i was in the navy in the Philippines i learned some of there martial arts. One was Kali stick fighting and staff fighting.
www.youtube.com...
This is the weapon i carry in the US because all the cops see is a old man with a walking stick.



There is a saying... anything in the hands of a Marine is a weapon.

As a navy shore patrolman I had to take on a few drunk marines and the kali stick fighting techniques using a riot control stick worked better then fists against drunk marines.
Being on shore patrol duty in Olongapo was no fun.
but I learned a lot of stick fighting techniques from the Olongapo PD officers I was teamed with when they found I was interested.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 07:00 AM
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And I thought the only good marine was a submarine.lol. Very nice thread.s&f. I like the staff myself especially for hunting, fishing, spear fishing.I work with wood so I'm gonna design a multi purpose staff hopefully before the shtf.Thanks for the info on alternative weapons.Peace and happy huntings.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 07:18 AM
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As a Brother Marine let me first say good post...

When people use to annoy me I often joked, "How would you like to be the first person in history to be killed with a coffee cup"? if they were smart they went and found someone else to annoy...


But lets get right down to it... I would much rather face an untrained opponent who carries a grenade launcher then a well trained fighter who had nothing but a paper clip!


I have been in both armed and unarmed conflicts... as often is the case the victor was the one who kept calm and cool. Lose your head in a fight and you will lose your life.

Oh and trust me... trying to pull off some flashy stunt you once saw in a movie, will only get you hurt.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by DaddyBare]



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by calstorm
Good post.
I am wondering however if an air rifle would be adequate for hunting small game and as a deterrent for 2 or 4 legged predators. Since I can't purchase a gun right now. would it be worth it, until I could or would it just be a waste of money.


It would be adequate for small game, but I'd find something else for self-defense. Unless you happen to make a lucky shot, you're probably just going to pi$$ them off, whether they happen to be a man or a four legged predator. That's a concern with small caliber firearms, too.

My advice? Hit the local gun shops and look for a used single-shot 12 gauge. You'd be surprised how cheap they can be. You can probably find a good one for under $100...possibly quite a bit less.

As for the topic of the thread, if I could not have a firearm, my first choice would be a bow and arrow. Some like crossbows, but a standard bow is significantly faster with follow-up shots. I might also carry a can of bear spray. At the very least, they'd deter your biggest enemy: packs of wild dogs. You'd still need a weapon for the worst case scenario, hand-to-hand combat, and if you're carrying a bow, you probably don't want to haul around a staff or spear as well. Given that, a machete, kukri or short sword would be my choice, as it gives you a range advantage over someone wielding a knife.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 08:34 AM
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I recommend a crowbar and a large can of WD-40 or other spray lubricant.

As weapons, spray for the eyes with the lubricant and then when the target's vision is compromised start hitting HARD with the crowbar. Remember to aim low with the crowbar, targeting knees, wrists, elbows, and the groin area. These areas are less likely to be armored and taking out a joint limits the use of the associated limb.

As tools, they are useful when on the move or on your way out of a confrontation. The crowbar can be used to open (or close) passageways such as doors, windows, or walls, and the spray lubricant can be used to cover a smooth surface such as a tile or vinyl floor in order to make it difficult for a pursuer to navigate.

In the event that the pursuer uses dogs for tracking, a small bottle of powdered hot peppers is handy; periodically pause your movement and sprinkle it lightly all around you in a circle.

What's that, you were caught in a strange place and need to arm up fast?

If you are in a strange area such as an unfamiliar home or restaurant, office building, etc. you might opt for a bottle of spray cleaner and a kitchen knife or box cutter. The uses for those are obvious, use one hand to spray for the eyes with the cleaning solution, then when you blind your opponent move in with the knife. In this case, targets are the neck, the eyes, the insides of the elbows or insides of wrists, the groin, anyplace that is not heavily protected and has lots of nerves and large veins.

If you cannot find an edged weapon, any small object will work, such as pipe wrenches, open-end wrenches, sockets, even screwdrivers. The same with sprays, if you can't find a bottle of cleaner, use a bottle of hairspray, bug spray, hell a cup of soda or a mouthful of water will work.

Remember, blind and strike. Blind and strike. Blind and strike.

Work with what you have and keep it simple.

Good luck and good hunting.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by Symbiote
 


Good advice. That should be common sense, but it is easily forgotten.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by calstorm
Good post.
I am wondering however if an air rifle would be adequate for hunting small game and as a deterrent for 2 or 4 legged predators. Since I can't purchase a gun right now. would it be worth it, until I could or would it just be a waste of money.



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posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 11:01 AM
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reply to post by DaddyBare
 


couldnt agree more. training is the best option. whether with bare hands or weapons, nothing works if you dont know how to use it, have practice using them, and are comforatable in situations where you can keep your cool.

if you dont know all of the above, everything you have is useless. you could have a .50 desert eagle but if you are such a bad shot that you couldnt hit the broad side of a barn, what does it matter (other than you just spent a g-note on a gun that you dont know how to work lol)?



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by Symbiote
 


In addition to WD 40 or a similar product you may consider adding a can or two of Wasp/Hornet spray. Some cans have an effective range of up to 20 plus feet. The cans are big but the will get the job done at a safe distance from an attacker and they have a greater range than a typical can of mace.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 12:14 PM
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I would like to point out that a firearm has it's usefulness. My point with the post was more than how to simply kill things, but to show that a firearm and a knife (or staff or axe) can do the same thing but have better qualities as a tool.

You can't field dress a deer with Jujitsu. A crowbar and can of WD-40. I can't begin to think of the uses these would have in a survival situation. But a crowbar might not be readily available and a can of WD-40 will run out of ammo


In each of the items I listed above, the factors were that they were reusable, efficient, easy to find and easy to make if they can't be found, and double as tools that can be used for various survival tasks.

Interesting idea, though... a Hard Drive disk as a shuriken! I'd never thought of it. Course... I've never had to lol!

Keep your wits about you. That's the first rule of combat. Don't lose your head, don't let fear control you. As long as you have that hammered into your head, you'll normally be ok. Necessity is the mother of invention. You'll find that in the arena of improvisation, if you NEED something, you can find a way to make it.

Also, crossbows. While effective with a relatively simple in design, they tend to be bulky, heavy, difficult to conceal, and easily breakable. (Unless it's made of solid iron.) It also has few uses as a tool, but is a great weapon for hunting and combat.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Symbiote
I recommend a crowbar and a large can of WD-40 or other spray lubricant.



The spray used with a lighter gives you some nice little flame thrower.


The crowbar is a very useful tool, as you explained.



A word on axes. First I liked them much, but they are heavy and difficult to use. I get tired from using them so I switched to a foldable saw. My experience now tells me saws are much better....Something between an axe and a saw is a Machete. A few days ago I bought one 26" heavy duty machete. Wow
cool stuff, just tried it at home cutting some bushes in the garden. And as weapon it gives you together with your arm an incredible range. You just slice the head off.

My other surprise weapon is - or better ARE - shurikens. I use to carry 5 pieces in a small pocket on my belt. With a short movement I pull 3 of them out and throw them (underhand) at the same time to my target. One is at least within close range of the bull's eye, even beyond 10 yards.

Next weapon can be easily done in survival situation. It's called "bolas" and is still used by South American Gauchos. Three weights on cords interconnected designed to capture animals by entangling their legs. Watch your head when trowing. It's not an easy toy.

Nice description and pictures at Wiki:
en.wikipedia.org...


Anyway, the one who has the surprise will usually win, right?



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