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Originally posted by desklamp3
Great post -- nice comprehensive work.
Agreed on the question posted above, why not disclose now? If it was, say, the Venus probe, both sides know it, so what's the downside?
Originally posted by JimOberg
Personally, I had wondered if the AF claim was a diversion to camouflage their recovery of the actual satellite. After all, it was against international law to recover and then retain objects launched by other nations – the ‘originating state’ had full legal ownership. Far better (I mused) to avoid a fuss by just never admitting possession – and far MORE valuable from an intelligence point of view if the ‘other side’ never realized that you had discovered some of its technical secrets.
Google Video Link
USSR Nov 23 1965- Launched 3MV-4 #6 apparatus to Venus. The fault of third stage of booster. Title as “Kosmos-96”.
Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar
I'd like to see Oberg's trajectory data as it relates to this study.
Jim? Would you mind posting your trajectory calculations here in the thread?
Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar
"Investigations of photographs and sightings of the fireball indicated its path through the atmosphere was probably too steep to be consistent with a spacecraft re-entering from Earth orbit and was more likely a meteor in a prograde orbit from the vicinity of the asteroid belt, and probably ended its flight over western Lake Erie. U.S. Air Force tracking data on Cosmos 96 also indicate the spacecraft orbit decayed earlier than 21:43 UT on 9 December."
Officials say they didn't. Assume for a moment that they did recover Kosmos-96. They have to come up with a cover-up to hide the fact that they recovered Kosmos-96.
Originally posted by jkrog08
To me it is basically like this;
Dr. Nicholas Johnson, the chief orbital debris scientist of NASA stated that WITHOUT A DOUBT no man-made craft crashed that day in any area close to Kecksbug. So for me this should automatically rule out Cosmos or any other KNOWN space/aircraft. I also highly doubt that Dr. Johnson was taking part in disinformation about a 44 year old crashed Russian probe that failed to leave the orbit of Earth.
I don't think top secret man-made technology from '65 would be kept secret for 44 years either. And I'd like to see an official article on the probe that was due to fall out of the sky. I'd do realize that it's very plausible though.
Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Originally posted by rygi23
Another story that will always be he-said-she-said. A point I'm not seeing addressed...If you believe the witnesses as I do then it (whatever it was) fell from space and didn't obliterate and incinerate into fine pieces. It's exterior had almost no damage at all. So much for the theory of anything manmade, including what we build for space.
Apparently you didn't read Jim Oberg's post on page 1:
Originally posted by JimOberg
In early December, 1965, a Soviet spacecraft of very high interest was about to fall out of orbit. It was the entry capsule of a Venus probe, whose engine had failed during launch, trapping it in low Earth orbit. That spacecraft would contain the very latest Soviet hardware for heat shielding, hi-G structural strength, guidance, navigation instrumentation, and computer/communications systems, since the same factories that
built space probes also were involved in building military missile and warhead systems.
See that about the very latest Soviet hardware for heat shielding? If it's a probe designed to withstand Venus, that's a very severe environment so I imagine it would be very, very tough and capable of surviving re-entry to the earth.
So that's a possibility and some witnesses claimed the object even had the same acorn shape as that probe. Are you still sure it couldn't be man-made?
Cosmos 96 NSSDC ID: 1965-094A Description This mission was intended as a Venus lander, presumably similar in design to the Venera 3 which had launched a week earlier. The spacecraft attained Earth orbit and the main rocket body (65-094B) separated from the orbiting launch platform. It is believed an explosion (perhaps during ignition for insertion of the spacecraft into a Venus transfer orbit) damaged the platform, resulting in at least six additional fragments (designated 65-094C - H). The damaged spacecraft remained in orbit for 16 days and reentered the Earth's atmosphere on 9 December 1965. The Great Lakes Fireball and Kecksburg Incident There is some speculation that the reentry of the Cosmos 96/Venera-type spacecraft was responsible for a fireball which was seen over southwestern Ontario, Canada and at least eight states from Michigan to New York at 4:43 p.m. EST (21:43 UT) on 9 December 1965. Investigations of photographs and sightings of the fireball indicated its path through the atmosphere was probably too steep to be consistent with a spacecraft re-entering from Earth orbit and was more likely a meteor in a prograde orbit from the vicinity of the asteroid belt, and probably ended its flight over western Lake Erie. U.S. Air Force tracking data on Cosmos 96 also indicate the spacecraft orbit decayed earlier than 21:43 UT on 9 December. Other unconfirmed reports state the fireball subsequently landed in Pennsylvania southeast of Pittsburgh near the town of Kecksburg (40.2 N, 79.5 W) at 4:46 p.m. EST (although it should be noted that estimating the impact point of fireballs from eyewitness accounts is notoriously inaccurate). Uncertainties in the orbital information and reentry coordinates and time make it difficult to determine definitively if the fireball could have been the Cosmos 96 spacecraft. Cosmos Nomenclature After failing to leave Earth orbit, this spacecraft was designated Cosmos 96. Beginning in 1962, the name Cosmos was given to Soviet spacecraft which remained in Earth orbit, regardless of whether that was their intended final destination. The designation of this mission as an intended planetary probe is based on evidence from Soviet and non-Soviet sources and historical documents. Typically Soviet planetary missions were initially put into an Earth parking orbit as a launch platform with a rocket engine and attached probe. The probes were then launched toward their targets with an engine burn with a duration of roughly 4 minutes. If the engine misfired or the burn was not completed, the probes would be left in Earth orbit and given a Cosmos designation.
The Federal Aviation Administration had received 23 reports from aircraft pilots, the first starting at 4:44 p.m. A seismograph 25 miles southwest of Detroit had recorded the shock waves created by the fireball as it passed through the atmosphere.
Most witnesses thought they were observing a plane going down in flames. But in Kecksburg, where the objects arrived suddenly and made its spectacular landing, the earliest reported eyewitness, a seven year old boy playing outside with his sister, declared that it looked like "a star on fire." The children's mother later described, "a column of blue smoke rising through the trees, "from the woods about a mile away where the object landed, and another "brilliant object," hanging above the tree line and to the left of the smoke column. She described this second objects at resembling a "four-pointed star."
There were other witnesses in different parts of the village who independently saw the object go down into the woods, and at that time, they heard no sound, but momentarily after it happened, they saw the dust rise and a blue column of smoke go up, and in a matter of minutes it dissipated. When they saw this thing coming in, by the descriptions, they were not just seeing a fireball or bright meteor. Some of them had seen this thing pass very close over their heads, it was slow moving, it was gliding in. . It appears to have been a controlled reentry vehicle of some type. . It appears that it was purposely trying not to hit the edge of the ridges, to guide itself around those ridges, and was trying to gain altitude.
Apparently, it did not gain enough over the last ride when it crashed. Not long after the crash, members from the local volunteer fire companies were combing the woods, searching for what was still assumed to be a downed airplane. The state police also arrived, to coordinate the search as well as keep order, as radio and TV news reports of the mysterious, no longer assumed to be a mere airplane, had drawn crowds of curious onlookers to the site for a glimpse of whatever it was. A state police fire marshal, accompanied by an unidentified man carrying a Geiger counter descended into the woods.
Upon their return a few minutes later, the state police fire marshal ordered the woods sealed off. John Murphy, news director of the Greensburg radio station WHJB, was one of the first people on the scene. Murphy knew the fire marshal well, but when he attempted to get information from him as to what he had seen in the woods, received the reply, "I'm not sure. You better get your information from the army."
Report By Doug Yurchey
It was a warm December night in 1965. I was 14 years old and my cousin John was 12 years old as we left my house to sneak a few cigarettes down the alley. We lived in the suburban community of Bridgeville; 12 miles southwest of downtown Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. We came to this lithographic building which had a loading dock in the back. It was the perfect place to sit and smoke in secret. We knew we had to leave soon. The time was getting late into the evening. But, before we made our way back to my house:
Something pierced the night's sky over my left shoulder. Our heads turned to the left and our eyes could not help but notice a bright ball of light! Both John and I were stunned. Our mouths dropped. The object was about the size of a full moon and it trailed sparks or little bits of light. The odd thing about it was the thing did not fall straight down. The UFO went laterally; sideways; almost up! Whatever this was...it could not have been a meteor. A shooting star (or space debris) falls down. A natural object does not move horizontally. Meteors do not go up.
Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar
As for Cosmos 96, have you read this report:
US space command reported in 1991 that Cosmo 96 crashed in Canada at 3:18 am. Johnson does not have information about the time of demise of Cosmos 96, but he did confirm it was over Canada at this time