NEWS: Vatican Slammed on Abuse Comments

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posted on May, 14 2004 @ 01:27 PM
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Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo was quoted as saying that the photo's showing abuse by the American soildiers towards the Iraqi prisoners was worse than the September 11th attacks made against the United States.
 



King said the Catholic Church should be the last group to claim moral high ground on issues of sexual abuse, given the past several years of revelations about priests abusing children for years while church officials failed to stop such behavior.
"Whatever the United States has done to prisoners in Iraq is nothing compared to what priests and nuns did to Catholic kids for decades while the Catholic hierarchy covered it up," King said.


Congressman, group blast Vatican over comments on abuse


Related Web Links

LI Congressman Slams Vatican Over Iraq Comment

Rep. King blasts Vatican over Iraq comments



[Edited on 5-14-2004 by William One Sac]




posted on May, 14 2004 @ 04:00 PM
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This is an absolutely ridiculous response to the Vatican's statements. I'm ashamed that King and those who joined him can speak on behalf of the United States in any capacity above that of an individual citizen.

Do we have the right to feel infuriated over the torture inflicted on hostages and US soldiers? Of course we do!

But we do not have the right to engage in the antics or tactics that we have seen in the abuse photos!! For King to defend those actions by attacking the Catholic Church over an unrelated issue is absolutley idiotic. Maybe King should stop and, God forbid, THINK! He may realize that the Vatican has never said the abuse was OK. To the contrary - they've denounced it!

What King apparently advocates for us is that we should simply crawl down further into the gutter and respond in a likekind animalistic nature. NO THANKS _ THAT"S WHY GOD GAVE THE GIFT OF REASON TO HUMANS!!

The Vatican is not taking sides. It's simply trying to consider what is the best thing for the entire human family.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 04:10 PM
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I think the point that Mr. King is making CS, is that the Roman Catholic Church pretty much has no business correcting or pointing out a 'fault' when it has its own 'faults' that need addressing?

I mean, wasn't it the RCC that also chimed/proclaimed today that Catholic woman should think hard about marrying Muslim men and urgin Muslim men to to show more respect for human rights? What gives the RCC the 'power' to procalim such absurdance? The RCC has NO say over what those who are not affiliated with the RCC can or cannot do, correct?
Vatican Warns Catholics Against Marrying Muslims

Separation between Church and State is there for a reason and should be likewise in world affairs, being the RCC is NOT a world governing body or representative of such.



seekerof



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 04:37 PM
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SO
When we attempt to treat the Vatican as a secular state, it makes no sense at all. The Pope is the vicar of Christ on earth, consequently, it transcends secular interests. Your comment "is that the Roman Catholic Church pretty much has no business correcting or pointing out a 'fault' when it has its own 'faults' that need addressing?" is interesting. Are you proposing that Catholics, or those of any faith, suspend religious teaching until they get their own house in order? Not going to work.

All of humanity is born into a fragile condition which is certainly capable of sin. However, that doesn't mean we simply give up.


[Edited on 5/14/2004 by CommonSense]



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 05:20 PM
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Now, a Colorado Bishop says that communion should be denied to people who support certain candidates, including Kerry (which is ironic since Kerry is Catholic). The Church is denying religious ceremonies because of your political beliefs!
Wow, maybe there is something to this NWO stuff and they really want Bush to win!
CNN



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 05:21 PM
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Will they be polling at the communion ceromony?



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 05:27 PM
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The idea that one who has sinned (covered up sex scandals) cannot point out faults in others is a little extreme. I will grant you that it does not lend much credibility to their "shock", but that's not the point. The soldiers did things that we as westerners would prefer they hadn't done. ANYONE can see that and point it out if they want. The church has had to face itself on these issues (finally) and so too do the American policies that have allowed the torture to happen.

If "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone" is followed too strictly, none of us would be allowed to say anything to anybody about any crimes or acts we deem unacceptable. I mean, really. How many of us can say we haven't sodomized an Iraqi prisoner on occasion?



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by curme
The Church is denying religious ceremonies because of your political beliefs!
CNN


Curme,
It has absolutely nothing to do with ones political beliefs. The real issue is that Catholics believe life begins at the moment of conception. Consequently, anything that destroys life is gravely contrary to the faith and represents mortal sin. No Catholic is to receive Communion while in a state of mortal sin. All of the items you refered to destroy life (abortion, stem cell research, etc.)

Receiving Communion while in a state of mortal sin is scandalous to the Church and provides the wrong sign to the rest of the members of the Church.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 05:43 PM
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So, voting for Kerry, because say, you like his stance on the war, or the economy, is a mortal sin because of his stance on
(abortion, stem cell research, etc.)? And wouldn't it be a mortal sin to actually do the abortion, rather than vote for a candidate who believes in it? I'm not Catholic, so I don't know how this mortal sin thing works. And if you don't like Bush, what do you do, not vote?



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 06:19 PM
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No Curme, I didn't say that voting for him would constitute mortal sin but I beleive the bishop in question did indicate that. I'm not sure on the validity of that statement on his part. I'll have to do some research on that part. The whole issue is really getting bogged down by politicians who make the statement

"I personally opposed to "whatever" but I can't impose my personal feelings on others"

It's like give me a break. I want to vote for someone who will stand true to their moral beliefs and not pander for votes with the "I'm personally opposed to, but....." crap.

BTW, Church teaching regarding mortal sin is that a mortal sin is committed when a person knowingly and willfully enters into serious sin. Serious sin is usually a violation of any of the 10 commandments. For Catholics, dying while in a state of mortal sin is bad news. It's a one way ticket. Absolution from sin is a sacrament received during reconcilliation also known as confession.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by curme
And if you don't like Bush, what do you do, not vote?


Quite frankly, I can't stand either of them. I don't think I can recall any election in recent history when I've felt equally rotten about each of them as I do now!!



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 06:30 PM
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There was a post awhile back, I think it was mine, and it stated that, TECHNICALLY, Kerry could be denied Communion for his abortion stance. Apparently, if you are officially denied, it's a big deal, CS? (I'm not that good of a Catholic
)
That was a couple weeks ago, so the story that I quoted has been out there and elaborated on many, many times.
______
The CC through history has had its hands in the secular world and at one time had a part in governing Rome, am I correct here? So, while our country has a separation of Church and State, the Vatican and much of the world does not believe as we do.

Can we impose our separation beliefs on the Vatican? Don't they have the right to voice their opinion, even if it is out of line and inappropriate?
Let the Church say what they want...they will have to pay the price as folks continue to leave the CC.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 06:32 PM
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TextArchbishop Giovanni Lajolo was quoted as saying that the photo's showing abuse by the American soildiers towards the Iraqi prisoners was worse than the September 11th attacks made against the United States.
 



No body with comun sense will agree with such statment, obviously archbishop giovanni when beyond his status, to make such a stament I can not believe that any catholic in this country will agree with this and the response he got from king is well granted, to me it seems that terrorist attact again US. population is seen as a minor thing in the catholic church eyes.

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by marg6043]



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 06:39 PM
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Hi DTOM,
I really don't think that the Vatican is trying to impose itself on secular states. There's a very fine line here, that is living a life consistent with the teachings of the bible. In that sense, certainly the Vatican professes to live according to the bible. It also has the right, no actually the obligation, to make sure that people who profess to be Catholic, live in accordance with the teaching of the Church. This is the reason that people are excommunicated. BTW, when people are excommunicated, it's because of an act that they have done which separates them from the Church. It's not really a decree by the Church.

Maybe part of the problem is a lack of real faith. I think you would probably agree that the Ten Commandments are treated more like the Ten Suggestions by today's culture.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043

No body with comun sense will agree with such statment, obviously archbishop giovanni when beyond his status, to make such a stament I can not believe that any catholic in this country will agree with this and the response he got from king is well granted,......

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by marg6043]


Quite frankly, I didn't like his statement either. But then I have to remember that I have a hard enough time deciphering American cardinals much less trying to understand Italian cardinals. BTW, it's not a knock against Italians, I just sometimes have a hard time with Church doublespeak. (You see I'm not totally satisified either!)

With regard to the cardinal's statement, I think what he was trying to get at was the degradation of any human person on such a personal level. I also believe that he holds the US to a higher standard given the gifts that God has given the US. BY stooping as low as the photos indicate, it may indicate to many that we don't deserve what we have.

On the other hand, if his statement was based on personal deep seated anti-US sentiment on his part, then I think he's full of crap and the Pope should whack him upside the head with his crosier!

And that' just a little Common Sense!



[Edited on 5/14/2004 by CommonSense]



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 07:21 PM
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TextOn the other hand, if his statement was based on personal deep seated anti-US sentiment on his part, then I think he's full of crap and the Pope should whack him upside the head with his crosier!


I hope you are right, because this goverment have been feeding us that the worst thing that happend to america was 911, and having some religious figure made comparizon on it is just not right.


Q

posted on May, 15 2004 @ 02:20 AM
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Sounds to me like a clear-cut case of the pot calling the kettle black.

What, did we not sodomize them correctly, or were they just too old by the Vatican's standards?

Sorry, but I really do think that, being one of (the?) world's largest religons, the Catholic church could do way better with it's PR. Statements like this (and the communion ban) do not help their cause.

Before anyone goes flaming me, I do have lots of Catholic friends, and they're good people. Don't let the actions of the vocal few paint the many in a bad color.

Honestly, I'm highly critical of pretty much all major organized religons.


Note to self: buy stock in super glue; they're going to be needing a lot of it for that glass house!

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Q]



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 03:26 AM
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I am a Catholic, though not particularly devout. My husband attended Jesuit schools, my sil was a nun etc. So, I guess we have the Catholic credentials.

My husband and I have come to the conclusion that the Church is undergoing all sorts of power plays and intriques due to the illness of the Pope. Various Cardinals and beaurocratic functionaries are trying very hard to impose THEIR views on the Church. Hopefully, when Pope John Paul II passes, the new Pope will sort this all out.

Living in Phoenix, home of one of the most disgraced Bishops (the one accused of hit and run and who is now on probation...not to mention his covering up sex crimes), I've found it hard to go to Mass and feel the "holiness" required.

Many major changes are slowly being implemented into the Church. This has many people leaving one parish for another. For example, the exclusion in some parishes of altar girls...the Lectors now having to sit with the audience and only move up to the ambo for there reading. This, in particular is seen as a means to remove women from the altar. Prior to last years' changes, women Lectors, held hands with the Priest as he said the "Our Father" and were given Holy Communion at the altar. All that is no more.

Now, they are outlawing nonsecular (ie:Catholic music) and instituting a Latin mass on Sunday. Of couse, my 97 year old MIL is thrilled. However, I'm not so thrilled to think that the conservatives are taking over.

Flame me if you wish,but the extremely conservative Catholics ..who followed Archbiship Lefevre and do not accept the Pope as Vicar of Christ are scarey people. They tend to extremes. I've found that extremes in any religion, or politics, for that matter, only causes strife.
joey



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by joey
Hopefully, when Pope John Paul II passes, the new Pope will sort this all out.
I hope it's not Cardinal Lustiger - He's believed to be the Antichrist


Now, they are outlawing nonsecular (ie:Catholic music) and instituting a Latin mass on Sunday.
Good. I have always considered Vatican II to have been the most damaging thing ever for the Catholic Church. If they hadn't got rid of the Latin Mass, maybe I would still be Catholic.



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 07:42 AM
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joey & Piskey,
Vatican II was probably one of the most misunderstood and poorly implemented things ever done. I could write a lot about this but I'll just touch on the Latin Mass. VII never outlawed the Mass in Latin. It merely allowed the Mass to be celebrated in the native language. The problem started with some priests, religious and overly zealous lay people who wanted to turn the church inside out and upside down. Those factions are still there and causing problems.

As joey pointed out, it's hard to acheive a sense of holiness with what's gone on with your bishop. Quite frankly, I think he should be defrocked. But hang in there, it's not about one person we're disappointed in, it's about our relationship with God. Find a priest that gives a really good homily, I'm sure that will help.





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