Why do theists strive to prove the existence of god?

Proof denies faith. If god were to be conclusively proved wouldn't faith be meaningless? Isn't a fundamental part of Christianity that the faithful be tested without proof?

Originally posted by OldThinker
Does the Central Limit Theorem prove a Creator/Deity?

Math proves Jesus Christ is the CREATOR! “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” –Apostle Paul

Well, that may be a bit of hyperbole…

Well here goes…

Assumption #1: Levy's 9th law states: “Only God can make a random selection.”

Assumption #2: Have you ever heard of the “Central Limit Theorem?” - The means (X) of random samples taken from ANY distribution (mean μ and variance σ2) will exhibit an approximately normal distribution (mean μ and variance σ2/n)

In less mathematical terms, it is any of a set of weak-convergence theories. They all express the fact that a sum of many independent random variables will tend to be distributed according to one of a small set of stable distributions

Could Cicero have been right when he said, “Probability is the very guide of life.” And maybe eternity?

Also I wonder is there any connection between "theorem" and words like "theology" or "theist"?

Maybe Max Born was right? He said, “The conception of chance enters into the very first steps of scientific activity in virtue of the fact that no observation is absolutely correct. I think chance is a more fundamental conception than causality; for whether in a concrete case, a cause-effect relation holds or not can only be judged by applying the laws of chance to the observation.”

So what’s up with the CLT, huh? This is why we can predict elections, with great accuracy…way ahead of time.

Question? If randomly distributed samples, “approximate” the make-up of the population, then does the “designed” prove a “designer”?????

Any pro-God or anti-God statisticians out there? Thots?


OT

PS: Oh, btw "An infinite number of mathematicians walk into a bar. The first one orders a beer. The second orders half a beer. The third, a quarter of a beer. The bartender says "You're all idiots", and pours two beers."

He is us though right? and we are him.....just on a whole different level...

So what paul says is true ......i think......we just can't comprehend it......

Originally posted by mithrawept
Why do theists strive to prove the existence of god?

Proof denies faith. If god were to be conclusively proved wouldn't faith be meaningless? Isn't a fundamental part of Christianity that the faithful be tested without proof?

They are not trying to prove anything to themselves. They are trying to tell people that there are alternative explanations that very good and well educated scientist, biologists, archaeologists, geologists, historians, geneticists etc. offer in support of the creation model.

My motive is to wake others up and tell them that evolution involves faith in natural processes, natural selection, punctuated equilibrium, random mutations, and eons of time working together to manufacture thousands of life forms coming into existence through thousands of parallel evolutions happening at the same time(over millions of years). Evolution is a religion not a science. That scientists embrace evolution is more due to the government funding(the money train) than for love of science. I'm motivated to tell people that neither side can prove their theory. All either side can do is offer explanations for what they observe from the evidences. Only an informed person who takes the time to study both sides can make an informed decision. Most people are lazy and too trusting of our government, so they just believe whatever they hear from programs like Nova, Discovery, National Geographic, and teachers in our schools. Most people haven't got a clue about the creation scientists' explanations for the evidences.

I am not a scientist, and I have only spent a few years studying creation science, but I know how to use the Internet to do research, and I will share what I can find in support of creation.

[edit on 15/9/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by John Matrix
That scientists embrace evolution is more due to the government funding(the money train) than for love of science. I'm motivated to tell people that neither side can prove their theory. All either side can do is offer explanations for what they observe from the evidences.

I disagree.

Most scientists support evolution because they understand it.

Most of these debates involve people who don't really understand evolution and the biological mechanics.

This debate doesn't really exist in the scientific world, it is a political tool of semantics and rhetoric.



[edit on 16-9-2009 by Jezus]

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by John Matrix
That scientists embrace evolution is more due to the government funding(the money train) than for love of science. I'm motivated to tell people that neither side can prove their theory. All either side can do is offer explanations for what they observe from the evidences.

I disagree.

Most scientists support evolution because they understand it.

Most of these debates involve people who don't really understand evolution and the biological mechanics.

This debate doesn't really exist in the scientific world, it is a political tool of semantics and rhetoric.

Most scientists support evolution because it's supports their denial of God.
The Bible states: "The fool says in his heart, there is no God."

They also support evolution to stay on the money train.

They also support evolution because it's popular to do so.

It's popular because most people are fools according to scripture, and that can be observed daily as well.

Originally posted by Maslo
OT - I have understood the CLT, but I just dont see how it disproves evolution... Can you elaborate on that?

Which part my friend?

OT

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by John Matrix
That scientists embrace evolution is more due to the government funding(the money train) than for love of science. I'm motivated to tell people that neither side can prove their theory. All either side can do is offer explanations for what they observe from the evidences.

I disagree.

Most scientists support evolution because they understand it.

Most of these debates involve people who don't really understand evolution and the biological mechanics.

This debate doesn't really exist in the scientific world, it is a political tool of semantics and rhetoric.

Most scientists support evolution because it's supports their denial of God.
The Bible states: "The fool says in his heart, there is no God."

They also support evolution to stay on the money train.

They also support evolution because it's popular to do so.

It's popular because most people are fools according to scripture, and that can be observed daily as well.

Well that is an interesting theory on why it isn't debated in the scientific world.

I would argue it is because the theory as a whole is un-debatable by a scientists because they are forced to acknowledge the mountain of evidence.

However, I acknowledge the massive evidence but that doesn't mean I don't believe in God.

So I was innocently wandering around the internet today and happened on this website. I lost some faith in humanity from reading some of the posts. The amount of ignorance I see is sickening. I got an account with a disposable email address because I wanted to flame as many boards as I could before I was kicked off. Unfortunately, I'm just too rational for that. I have never wanted to flame any other website with anywhere near the intensity required to get an account and actually do it. So you should be flattered at the strong feelings you stirred in me.

I chose this thread to post to first because it is the worst I have found in my rather short perusal. Statistics can prove creationism?? What universe are you guys living in? And the words "theist" and "theology" are related to "theorem"? My entire being rebels against that notion. The ignorance in this thread is sickening. I literally (and when I say "literally", I mean it) gagged and felt like throwing up. People wanting to post should do some research. Some examples:

Originally posted by platipus
i believe there has to be a god if not how did everything in the universe come to be, even with that big bang nothing to something sounds a bit absurd.

The big bang theory does not say that something came from nothing. It states that all the matter of the universe was compressed into a point infinitely small.

Originally posted by Gixxer
Without getting to scientific Different cultures have made their own forms of mathematics. The Mayans, Indians, Greeks, and Chinese all developed seperate math systems. Our mathematics today comes mainly from ideas developed in ancient India and Greece. Algebra and other topics were taken from India to Arabia, where they were then transferred to Europe. Most of our geometry comes from the Greeks. Calculus was developed in Europe by Sir Isaac Newton.

Our number systems are indeed different, but only superficially. The current dominant system (positional and base ten) evolved, if you will, and took out all the other competition because it is the best. It is easy to use and powerful. The same cannot be said of the Babylonian system of base sixty.

And to all those who are arguing that Jesus is a historical figure, the Gospels should not be taken as literal truth. They contradict each other more often than religious people like to admit. They were written by men many years ago and have been translated and embellished constantly. They are nothing more than myths and should be treated as such. They may well have their basis in fact, but they are no more true than, say, Amityville Horror.

Originally posted by John Matrix
Evolution is a religion not a science. That scientists embrace evolution is more due to the government funding(the money train) than for love of science. I'm motivated to tell people that neither side can prove their theory. All either side can do is offer explanations for what they observe from the evidences.
[edit on 15/9/09 by John Matrix]

Evolution is a religion? It is a scientific theory with some evidence behind it. I must admit that I don't trust a scientists idea of "proof" all the time, mathematical proofs are just so much more convincing, but evolution has more evidence behind it than creationism. Evolution is a theory much in the same way gravity is a theory. Tell me, do you plan on arguing that gravity is not true when so much evidence backs it up? Arguing with evolution is similar and I think that in time, it will come to be as obvious as the fact that the earth is round.

So thank you ATS for making me lose faith in humanity and want to bang my head against a wall. And not in a good way. My night has been irrevocably ruined because I found this site. If I have not been insulting enough, let me know and I will quickly remedy the situation. This was supposed to be a flame, but turned into a rational argument instead. That makes me angry.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by tfmt12]

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Maslo
OT - I have understood the CLT, but I just dont see how it disproves evolution... Can you elaborate on that?

Which part my friend?

OT

Well..Everything...
The CLT deals with random selection from a set. It states that when you make x random selections from some distribution and then average them, and do it more times, the averages would be distributed in normal distribution regardless of the original distribution, and this normal dist. becomes sharper as x becomes larger...

What does this have in common with a creator/deity or evolution? And just to be sure, evolution is NOT just random selection from a given set, so CLT does not even apply to it...

...and btw... theorem/theory are not related in meaning with theology or theist just because they have similar beginnings...