Does the Central Limit Theorem prove a Creator/Deity?

Not trying to win, "beat you"

relax

btw, here's more:

Koenig HG, Hays JC, Larson DB, et al. 1999. Does religious attendance prolong survival? A six-year follow-up study of 3,968 older adults. J Gerontol Med Sci. 54A: M370-M377.

Hummer R, Rogers R, Nam C, Ellison CG, 1999. Religious involvement and U.S. adult mortality. Demography 36: 273-285.

This study examined the effect of religious attendance on mortality. People who never attended religious activities exhibited 1.87 times the risk of death compared with people who attend more than once a week, which results in a seven-year difference in life expectancy at age 20 between those who never attend and those who attend more than once a week. People who did not attend church or religious services were more likely to be unhealthy and, consequently, to die. However, religious attendance also increased social ties and behavioral factors to decrease the risks of death.

Koenig, H.G. 1998. Religious attitudes and practices of hospitalized medically ill older adults. International Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry 13: 213-224.

When a random sample of 338 hospitalized patients were asked an open-ended question about what the most important factor was that enabled them to cope, 42.3% mentioned their religious faith.
Koenig H.G, et al. 1998. The relationship between religious activities and blood pressure in older adults. International Journal of Psychiatry in Medicine 28: 189-213.

The relationship between religious activities and blood pressure was examined in 6-year prospective study of 4,000 older adults. Among subjects who attended religious services once a week or more and prayed or studied the Bible once a day or more, the likelihood of diastolic hypertension was 40 percent lower than among those who attended services and prayed less often (p

Originally posted by Welfhard
[
BUT THAT'S NOT PROOF OF GOD!

Dear Blind watch maker, bless mommy, daddy...etc


OT

reply to post by OldThinker


Yet, God still hates those amputees!

LINK

Picking one religious dogma out of hundreds, if not thousands available and claiming to see benefits is just absurd.

reply to post by OldThinker

Dear Blind watch maker, bless mommy, daddy...etc

It's not proof of god, much less your god. We all know that 'religion' has a positive effect on health, but there are many religions. Therefore it's not proof of god.


You have to see this, you look stupid for making that baseless leap. These studies aren't broad enough and ignore other belief systems. It also assumes these effects aren't neuropsychiatric, and as do you.


So why should we assume this isn't all in the mind?

Not trying to win, "beat you"

Maybe that's why you're shotdown so easy. You should work on it.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard

Not trying to win, "beat you"

Maybe that's why you're shotdown so easy. You should work on it.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Welfhard]

Time will tell...

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

Time will tell...

Doesn't need to.


Every argument I've ever seen you make has been shot down.


And again..

It's not proof of god, much less your god. We all know that 'religion' has a positive effect on health, but there are many religions. Therefore it's not proof of god.


You have to see this, you look stupid for making that baseless leap. These studies aren't broad enough and ignore other belief systems. It also assumes these effects aren't neuropsychiatric, and as do you.

Shot down!

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by OldThinker


Blind watchmaker? Are you seriously going to use that as an argument in favor of god? I mean seriously?

The reason that argument is flawed from the get go is that there exists no process that allows for a working watch to form under the laws of physics.

This form of argumentation completely ignores everything known about biology and chemistry. You'd have to be a total tool to actually find it a valid argument. Are you arguing that all of biology and chemistry, including all of mankind's advances based on the sciences are invalid all because there exists no physical process to allow for a Rolex to "evolve"? Do you put any thought into what your saying, or do you blindly regurgitate the same ignorant dribble that creationists dole out for their followers?

reply to post by Welfhard


Another X-fundi...with wrong thinking....I think the technical term is 'pendulum effect'

Balanced OT loves this one...

What do atheists think about prayer?

Noted atheist Dan Barker, a spokesperson for the Freedom from Religion Foundation says the findings of the above research are no big surprise. Prayer and religious beliefs can have a placebo effect, just like a sugar pill. Barker, who was once a Christian Fundamentalist preacher before developing serious doubts about his religion, states that one of the strongest factors in recovery from an illness is a sense of connectedness with a community and people who care about you. Even if we mumble our prayers only when we are ill or if there is no God to hear them, the new research indicated that religious thoughts could help to heal.

Dr. Larry Dossey writes about the placebo effect mentioned earlier by Dan Barker and physicians who have looked at the tremendous amount of scientific studies on prayer. As Dr. Dossey states: "That is difficult to do considering that bacteria, fungi, and germinating seeds are not generally considered to be susceptible to suggestion."

link: www.plim.org...

reply to post by Welfhard


Don't worry Welfard...I am probably condemned with you, so you have company, whether you go up or down....if you catch my drift!!

Fornication is about idolatry(idol worship) not sex. How sex before marriage got into the translation is a mystery to me....especially when marriage is not well defined in scripture and no marriage vows are found.
What we see in scripture are marriage feasts, and men purchasing wives from their fathers. Kind of a weird practice.....but if it was still going on today, I would pray for many daughters.....just think of the income potential!!

But I Evolution starts with assumptions and biases too, so that argument gets us nowhere.

I keep saying that neither side can prove they are right. But hopefully through this exercise we all gain some understanding of the other side.

I can pray you see the light of creation, and you can hope that I see the light of evolution......but does it justify hating anyone, or denying them their right to believe, learn, and teach their beliefs? Is what some Christians teach about sexual conduct justification to ignore everything else in the Bible? I don't think so.

I understand that you were betrayed by a Christian you loved. This has happened to me too. It does not feel good to be considered anathema. I know, it has happened to me.

But don't leave your first love Welfard....even if you see evolution as science and creation as a religious fairytale, I would feel much better if you would still hold to those divine qualities made manifest in the flesh through the incarnation of the Divine Nature which is Christ.

At least then, I can feel at ease that the Spirit will teach you all things in due course.

Originally posted by Welfhard


You are getting delusional.....hic-up hic-up

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

Balanced OT loves this one...

I don't know why you do, it doesn't support your belief at all.

Another X-fundi...with wrong thinking

It's not wrong just because you say it is. Non of your experiments factored that in as an explanation.


reply to post by John Matrix

But I Evolution starts with assumptions and biases too, so that argument gets us nowhere.

Like? And don't say that "god doesn't exist" is an evolutionary assumption because that's rubbish otherwise if wouldn't be fact that most christians believe it and most people who believe it are christian.

Is what some Christians teach about sexual conduct justification to ignore everything else in the Bible? I don't think so.

Oh don't be silly, I don't ignore anything in the bible because of what christians think. I don't judge a book by the opinions of it's readers. I just ignore the people.

I understand that you were betrayed by a Christian you loved.

No. If I was, it's news to me.

But don't leave your first love Welfard.

My first love was cosmology because of Carl Sagan's Cosmos. At that age of 7, I was christian by default because I got dragged along to church. I was a Determinist a 10 and an evolution-ist because of High School Biology at 17.

I would feel much better if you would still hold to those divine qualities made manifest in the flesh through the incarnation of the Divine Nature which is Christ.

My disbelief in Yeshua and God have nothing to do with evolution.

Every celestial being in eternity knows God created the Universe and all that is in it,..... even "DirtyFace" and his demons know it. DirtyFace can easily convince fallible humans otherwise, you make that quite evident.

Or so dictates your faith.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by sirnex


Just to let you knowI am not ignoring you....I just don't know how to respond to you.

It appears that winning this debate is important to you, but for me it is not a big deal because this debate does not exists in eternity.

Every celestial being in eternity knows God created the Universe and all that is in it,..... even "DirtyFace" and his demons know it. DirtyFace can easily convince fallible humans otherwise, you make that quite evident.

reply to post by OldThinker


OT: It appears that having a belief in one's divine purpose not only gives one self esteem and a sense of moral accountability, but it adds years to one's life, and improves their quality of life. I suspect changes take place at the DNA level when one is on the right path. Maybe it will be discovered, if not already observed.

reply to post by John Matrix


Hey, all I'm asking for in any debate is a little critical thinking and less one sided arguments. When I'm faced with an assumption about a process and told that X process can't occur without the hand of god muddling around, I can and do make a big deal out of it. I understand some of what I have to say is offensive, but you need to understand my frustration with one sided-ness.

For instance, there is the argument or assumption that god is an actuality and requirement for the existence of the universe and life itself.

Before I go further, allow me to explain myself. I don't doubt the validity of such a scenario, but I show disbelief in this scenario being a possible causation of everything as the prime cause *God* has never been actually proven.

Now, this is a one-sided argument because it has never been initially proven. There is the pointing to the bible argument as proof and the pointing to processes not fully understood type of proof. That is what is frustrating, there is never the pointing to *God* as proof.

Man can write whatever he so chooses, look at Scientology! People will believe whatever, it's just what people do, why idk, but they do. Possibly lack of proper education on how to think critically and logically.

When one argues that life can't occur without *God*, then one is arguing against everything man currently knows and understands about biology and chemistry. Your not arguing that evolution is wrong or that abiogenesis is wrong, your arguing that chemistry and biology is wrong. That is frustrating.

It's not a matter of winning or losing. It's a matter of what is true and what are obvious lies and misunderstandings. You show a huge misunderstanding of the sciences involved and base your arguments off those misunderstandings. I point it out and you run off crying that I'm insulting and offending you. IDK why I'm even replying, because you've taken offense in just about every post I've made to you.

It's not a matter of your content that set's me off, it's a matter of if there was any logical thought that went into that content. If I don't see any, I will point that out, whether offense or insult is taken.

reply to post by John Matrix


I just want to point out a belief I have on moral accountability.

If one needs belief in a higher power's punishment to maintain a moral standing with society and fear of punishment maintains that morality... Just how moral is that person really?

I maintain a moral existence because it is the *right* thing to do, not as an act that should be done out of fear of punishment.

With that, I would maintain that I am more moral than a religious person.

reply to post by sirnex


Thank you for sharing that.

Many Christians claim their belief in God and Creation gives them a moral anchor, self esteem, a sense of divine pupose, a sense accountability for their actions, a desire to show compassion, and a desire to help their fellow man.

Do you deny the value of such?

If you accept that these things benefit society, then you must accept that any system of thought, that diminishes any one or more of these things, is not beneficial to the individual or the collective.

Evolution rapes society of these things.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by John Matrix

 

I just want to point out a belief I have on moral accountability.

If one needs belief in a higher power's punishment to maintain a moral standing with society and fear of punishment maintains that morality... Just how moral is that person really?

I maintain a moral existence because it is the *right* thing to do, not as an act that should be done out of fear of punishment.

With that, I would maintain that I am more moral than a religious person.

What stops everyone from doing right in their own eyes and thus becoming a "God unto themselves?"

Who's way of morality is right?

Surely not everyone's way is right.

Christians don't fear punishment.
Why would they if they are already forgiven.
It is those under the law who fear punishment.

A Christian lives by the Spirit, and does so out of sincere gratitude for having been granted forgiveness and enternal life.

reply to post by John Matrix


Evolution doesn't make people bad. Evolutionary theory has no impact on how a person will or will not act. To make this claim you have to show it to be true. I could *if you would like* pull up statistics that show there are more Christian's in prisons then there are Atheists. The reason I say evolution has no standing on morality is because morality is a social phenomenon, it's different between societal and cultural beliefs and even different between differing religious beliefs. There is no real inherent universal code of moral conduct.

The way I see it is, why would a religious person have to actually live a moral life if all they need to do is repent there sins and still get into heaven?

I don't enjoy that same "forgiveness". If I conduct an immoral act, I don't get a second chance. As I don't believe in an afterlife, there is no chance of repenting and being rewarded for that sin.

While any belief structure that advocates a moral standing with society in general is inherently better for society, there is no guarantee that the adherents of that belief will maintain that moral standing.

I also find it of dubious nature that anyone should *require* such a crutch in order to maintain a moral standing. Fear of punishment should not be causation of morality. Take away that fear based morality, then what stops you from being moral?

reply to post by sirnex

Evolution doesn't make people bad. Evolutionary theory has no impact on how a person will or will not act. To make this claim you have to show it to be true. I could *if you would like* pull up statistics that show there are more Christian's in prisons then there are Atheists.

Not to mention the tendency that the more irreligious a nation is, the more peaceful, happy and contented they are. I heart Norway.

And the higher one's intellect, the greater the chance of one being atheist/agnostic/irreligious.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


True, which is why I can never wrap my head around the God is needed to be a moral person argument. It's nothing more than a crutch for the immoral that give's a great loophole for still being immoral and getting rewarded for it. It's all in the bible, and yet the religious overlook God's own handiwork. God is either a blatant moron, or he's testing to see how smart his creation really is, and it looks like the religious are on a losing battle. Perhaps this explains why Jesus never made his second coming, these people scare the crap-doodles out of him!

I think God created Atheists with the inherent ability to not require God to be moral and created the religious just to irritate us and test our patience and how far we can be pushed before we commit an immoral act. They claim God created everything, that includes us as well!

[edit on 29-9-2009 by sirnex]

[edit on 29-9-2009 by sirnex]