Be a good puppet...Let's all buy into the us -vs- them paradigm. It'll be fun...

reply to post by seagull


Took the words right out of my mouth seagull. Star and flag.

A couple months ago I ran into this book at the local library discussing this specific topic (plus other things). The book is written by Butler D. Schaffer and it's called Calculated Chaos: Institutional Threats to Peace and Human Survival. It's a great book and I recommend anyone interested in this whole "us vs. them paradigm" to read it.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by Striker122]

It's very difficult to get a person on any side of any argument they see as black and white to step outside of themselves and think. What I mean by that is you're fighting against a persons socialization. I don't mean socialization as in their social life; but every single factor which makes a person believe, absolutely, that they and their group are 100% right. Basically every variable that makes someone the person they are as far as social issues go. That's hard to beat, but the ability to step outside of oneself and look at any problem objectively I feel is invaluable.

I see every example of the "Us V.S. Them" attitude in the OP as a false dichotomy. Every problem has a solution that benefits everyone. These solutions are often difficult to imagine and may require hard work. They require some sacrifice from everyone, especially the wealthiest people. That's a real problem; people don't want to work hard to benefit the entire human race, and the ones that would really be sacrificing disproportionately more control our government and media. It's no wonder people blindly support their champions. They've been told to all their lives without being offered any alternative.

The only way people will stop fighting each other, is when they realize that they all have a common enemy, which happens to be the one that set us all against each other in the first place. So.. how do we fix it? We keep doing what we have been.

Searching for info, learning, and spreading the word. Really, that doesn't do very much, we just have to hope TPTB slip up big, give everyone hard proof that nobody can deny.... But I doubt that's going to happen.

Nope, honestly I feel as though we are all ****ed. After all...

A person may be smart, but PEOPLE are STUPID.

This is no longer about Democrats vs Republicans but where we are along the line between Totalitarianism and Anarchy as a country.

The USA Federal Constitution placed us just left of Anarchy, leaving to the government to handle it's constitutional duties (Military and Post Office).
The USA State Constitution takes care of everything else and allows each of it's population groups to have different laws that most closely the wishes of it's people.

Per Ayn Rand, the ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics,

I figured out a long time ago; left & right are both the wrong way. However, we must keep moving in some direction. If we look at quantium physics, it says we can be in more than one place at the same time. Maybe thats the answer; we need to be moving in all directions all the time...

Couldn't agree more seagull

Funny because I just used the expression Us vs Them the other day in the opposite way to try and explain that we need to all get together and free our minds from these pathetic imaginary constructs that keep us divided, but the point was exactly the same.

Your point is well taken...

an old college textbook laid it all out in the early 80s, 'The Peoples History of United States.' Of course, ancient intellectuals knew, too. The cliches' are simple, Divide and Conquer and give them someone or something to hate. The masses have to be controlled or they will insist on their rightful piece of the pie. Deek Jackson on you tube with his fkn news says it all hilariously. Seriously, though, I cant seem to judge where greed ends and evil begins because it seems most likely tptb are plotting their own demise like a serial killer leaving too many clues.

reply to post by seagull



I agree with what you are saying seagull. It's just that I don't see the evil in it as others do. I do not see where voicing an opinion that is different than another’s is necessarily playing into the hands of an enslaver. The divide and conquer thing is been around for as long as mankind. But then, so to has diversity of opinion through education and environment.

reply to post by seagull

Has it ever occured to any of you pro's and anti's that this is exactly what the "interests" want? Hmmmm?

what , or more presicely WHO are the " interests " you cite ? - just my opinion but it looks like you are carefully avoiding admiting that the ` interests `if they exist , are infact another layer of ` them `

reply to post by seagull


Er, skipping all the way to the end here. I want to say, Seagull You've really impressed me with Your OP. I cannot begin to put into words how much I agree with You.

I have recently been talking about this myself, and have People giving me the "he's crazy look" left, and right, but You validated at least part of my sanity


S&F

OP reads my mind.

Here we have 2 major parties and elections look like USA's republican vs democrats.
and what is the difference in real life when one wins the elections?
NONE
we have old saying here "different smell, same crap"

As long as you vhoose candidates that come through parties who are sponsored by same big multinational corporations you will have same result.
Money interest can't be losing the elections so...

what's the difference between Obama and Bush?
One time it's you vs them and one time is them vs you

"The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease. "

Bruce Lee

reply to post by GorehoundLarry

No matter what, you'll always have someone who disagrees with you. Many people believe abortion is alright while many others think it's wrong. It's not about "interests." It's about who thinks they're right about a certain topic.

We're not all of a piece is what your saying?

Of course that's what'll happen in many instances. Someone is gonna disagree with me, kinda like you're doing just now. There really is nothing intrinsicly wrong with this, the problem begins when you, or I, get so bogged down in our "rightness" that we forget that other people are capable of having good, maybe even better, ideas.

Just because they may be **shudder** from the other side politically, doesn't necessarily make them wrong...

All that I'm encouraging here is to lose the strident partisanship... Can not people of goodwill get together to work on the solution to whatever problem currently vexes? It's been done in the past, I'd like to think we're as capable of doing this as our ancestors were.

reply to post by ignorant_ape


Think of an interest, and you'll find it entrenched in our political scene. Not just here in America, but all over...

It's my opinion/feeling (and contrary to Limbaughs opinion, I find feelings to be a valid political tool.) that these interests leave little or no room for us as individuals. The interests, whomever they may be, want to treat us all as a herd, not as the individuals that we, first and foremost, are...

Yes, I know that it's hard for a govt. of any size to deal with us as individuals...only so many hours in the day, if you will. Does that mean they shouldn't try?

It's up to us to remind them of that... When was the last time a govt. contacted you for something other than a tax notice, or your grass was too long...

I enjoyed reading all the posts! Great conversation Although, I feel there should be an us vs them paradigm. It should be us vs the bums, us vs the corrupt, us vs the greedy. While I feel there is no problem or blind following because one is involved in a certain politcal set of ideals such as the ones disscused on the post, like right vs left, thinking the republicans or democrats represent you is a myth.

When a "represenative" says "I" or "me" he does not represent you. When a politican drowns a woman do not re-elect him a dozen times, hold him accountable. When a politician leaves his office to flee to another country with his mistress, demand his resignation. There is nothing wrong with debating and having an opinon on issues, its your duty has a human being to have thoughts and opinons. It is also your duty to make sure your represented by your government. Stop making excuses for politicians when they are wrong because the are from a particular party.

Nothing in this country will change untill we start from the bottom up and demand representation and accountability, it begins at the town and county governments, and requires one to CARE and pay attention to whats going on around you. Only then will we see a real change.

reply to post by useless eaters


Wrong, contrary to some pundits opinion, doesn't equate to evil. I'll never claim that.

Communicate, be willing to comprimise...and great things can be accomplished. I'm not advocating kowtowing, of course...but at the least be willing to listen.

Opposition: What is it and how can it help you?

1. The action of opposing, resisting, or combating.
2. Antagonism or hostility.
3. The relation between two propositions in virtue of which the truth or falsity of one of them determines the truth or falsity of the other.

dictionary.reference.com...

Change cannot occur without opposition.

Opposition creates allies and enemies. Warfare gives direction and meaning, where none existed before. Without warfare the human race cannot fulfill it's destiny to return from where it came (Outer-space). If the planet and it's people get destroyed in the process, well that just too bad.

Let the survivors and those who weren't willing to venture off world inhierit the wreckage of the war.


[edit on 8-9-2009 by In nothing we trust]

reply to post by In nothing we trust


That's a valid point.

But when does opposition become opposition just for the sake of opposing?

I'm in the other group, I'm supposed to be agin' 'em.

What about that attitude is going to lead to any sort of constructive change?

Somewhere along the line, we lost sight of constuctive criticism. When I talk about someones plan, whatever the plan...which is a better attitude, "that's a stupid plan and will never work"... or, "Hmmm...have you thought about instead of doing it that way, try this way, it might be more effective". Many of us, not all, but many, seem to have lost sight of this.

There's opposition, then there's opposition.

reply to post by calstorm

As for conservative vs liberal - so many citizens bash Obama because of their bitterness about a black man being president. Others are bitter because a Democratic government is now in control of their lives.

I have to disagree that this is the issue with the majority. Sure there are a handful who's reasons for not liking Obama are as shallow as what you mentioned, but for the most part democrats, republicans and non affiliates alike are more concerned with the direction he is taking this country and where all the money is going, than something as trivial as the color of his skin. He is the one playing the race card not the people.

I agree Obama has done a lot to set back race relations. He is a racist and he showed it when he jumped all over that cop who arrested the black professor with the chip on his shoulder. As far as I am concerned THAT was his real response. Inviting the cop and professor to the White House for a beer was his handlers trying to put a positive spin on the situation.

His handling criticism by playing the race card is the worst thing he can do. It says to me he is not big enough to handle criticism objectively he is looking for an excuse and I find that contemptible especially in the US President. Do you think Hillary would have complained that criticism was because she is a woman?? I doubt it. I can not stand the woman but she is smart and has guts, and that is more than I can say for Obama. I have seen black factory workers who handle themselves a lot better than he does when it comes to race.

The conservative and centralist types do not like the avalanche of questionable bills hitting Congress and the "socialist" stance of Obama, that is the issue not his skin color. However it is easy to marginalize their concerns by playing the race card. I think he was chosen by the PTB because his skin color could be used in just that manner allowing controversial bills to be rammed through Congress and any criticism could be labeled racism.

The spin has worked like a charm town hall and tea party concerns are buried under the liberal knee jerk response to the racist card played up by the media and as a result none of them will open their minds to the actual concerns of the other side and the media does not have to treat the concerns seriously.

reply to post by seagull


A S&F for you! You are right on target! All energy is wasted by citizens fighting amongst ourselves while TPTB advance their agenda unchallenged.

Reminds me of an old saying..."If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, befuddle them with BS. "

Hundreds of thousands of true patriots need to take it to the streets. Unless that happens, we are doomed to slavery to TPTB.