It's been amusing for the past several months to see the reversal of opinions of the sitting President by a rather noisy bunch. One group went from castigating Mr. Bush with every breath, to defending Mr. Obama with equal fervor. Yet another bunch 180 degrees the opposite.

Republican -vs- Democrat...check

Liberal -vs- Conservative...check

Christian -vs- non...check

Pro-choice -vs- Pro-life...check

...and any other brand of us -vs- them you care to think of...

Has it ever occured to any of you pro's and anti's that this is exactly what the "interests" want? Hmmmm?

Take a look at some of the political campaign donations from these "interests"...I think you'll discover, to no ones surprise, that many are playing both sides against our best interests. At least it shouldn't be a surprise. Though given the sheer stupidity of some of the rhetoric I've seen in the past few months and years, I have to wonder.

I'm not going to bother with linking these things...do your own research. That way you'll learn.

Us -vs- Them...Us -vs- Them... It's been used for just about forever, 'cause it works...until you start looking to see who really benefits.

The only us that matters is ALL OF US, NO ONE CAN BE EXCLUDED...NO ONE.

But if you all wanna continue to buy into this ultimately futile paradigm feel free. Puppets and dolls don't have to think. But that semihysterical laughter you hear in the background? That'll be me. It's either laugh, or cry.

Ultimately, it's your choice. To paraphrase a really good movie, "choose wisely"...

I have to agree.

The division and separation of different societal "sects" have been our biggest problem since humans first began living together in large groups.

The class divisions in this world are truly where all of our problems lie.

If only people began to understand that there are more of us than of them, we could take all of our nations back and create a positive and productive world.

Drawing imaginary lines in the sand is not the way forward.

'There is no greater slavery, than those who falsely believe they are free."

~Keeper

[edit on 9/7/2009 by tothetenthpower]

Originally posted by seagull
It's been amusing for the past several months to see the reversal of opinions of the sitting President by a rather noisy bunch. One group went from castigating Mr. Bush with every breath, to defending Mr. Obama with equal fervor. Yet another bunch 180 degrees the opposite.

Republican -vs- Democrat...check

Liberal -vs- Conservative...check

Christian -vs- non...check

Pro-choice -vs- Pro-life...check

...and any other brand of us -vs- them you care to think of...

Has it ever occured to any of you pro's and anti's that this is exactly what the "interests" want? Hmmmm?

Take a look at some of the political campaign donations from these "interests"...I think you'll discover, to no ones surprise, that many are playing both sides against our best interests. At least it shouldn't be a surprise. Though given the sheer stupidity of some of the rhetoric I've seen in the past few months and years, I have to wonder.

I'm not going to bother with linking these things...do your own research. That way you'll learn.

Us -vs- Them...Us -vs- Them... It's been used for just about forever, 'cause it works...until you start looking to see who really benefits.

The only us that matters is ALL OF US, NO ONE CAN BE EXCLUDED...NO ONE.

But if you all wanna continue to buy into this ultimately futile paradigm feel free. Puppets and dolls don't have to think. But that semihysterical laughter you hear in the background? That'll be me. It's either laugh, or cry.

Ultimately, it's your choice. To paraphrase a really good movie, "choose wisely"...

There is nothing you can do to keep the us-versus-them mentality going away because that is simply impossible.
Let's look at the religious and non-religious issue. Let's say for the sake of argument that both sides decide to stop debating and arguing with each other. At some point one of the two groups will try to implement it's ideas to ALL society. This happens all the time, humans try to shape the world around their beliefs. We could possibly revert back to the times of the holy roman empire, or we could become a society that oppresses religious beliefs like Stalin's regime.

The pro-life versus pro-choice is another argument that people will never agree on. both sides try to shape the world around their ideologies. If the debates and arguments are stopped, then at some point one side will overwhelm the other and try to implant it's ideology as law.

Basically what I'm saying is that the us-versus-them mentality is a natural process that causes a balance on our ideas. We could accept other ideas, but that does not mean that one side will stop trying to implement its ideas as the absolute truth.

However, the democrats versus republicans arguments and conservatives versus liberals arguments ARE useless, for both of them are really just one party with two different faces...

..Just ask yourself this question...

If i had an enemy..what would Favours him the most??..Me Alone or Me with a million of my fellow mankind??

Nothing in the OP is news to me. I know and agree with most of the points made there. But it's still a bit difficult for me to respond to.

Seagull, it seems to me that based on the knowledge in the OP, you have chosen a position to take. A position that states that this presidency is the same as the last and that people who have political opinions and are involved in discussions about political issues, fit into one or the other groups that you’ve listed. Additionally, it seems to me that you advocate NOT fitting into these groups. Or at least not talking about it…

And I wonder… if having and expressing an opinion on a woman’s choice puts me into one of these strict groups and makes me a puppet in your eyes, what would you have us do? Give up all opinions? Stop discussing them?

Your A -vs- B illustration seems to assume that if someone is "A" then they can't be "B" and that these paradigm positions are hard and fast and never the twain shall meet. From my viewpoint, you are as guilty of dividing the people into these solid positions as the people themselves who are choosing these positions.

People have different opinions on things (like abortion). That doesn't make them stupid, ignorant or puppets. Neither does having the gall to have hope for the future by thinking that this new president may just make some changes for the better.

I am conservative AND liberal. I am pro-choice AND pro-life. I am pro-religion and anti-religion. It all depends on the specifics. I have very strong opinions about the details of these issues. You can’t honestly think that anyone who supports one position or another is a puppet or doll? I don’t know about you, but for me, it’s entirely possible to hold strong positions on abortion or gun control or the president without being a puppet. Being a Republican doesn’t make one a puppet. What makes one a puppet is a blind allegiance to an ideal or a person. And there are certainly some of those on this board, but your post seems to me to be speaking to the majority.

What am I misunderstanding here? What am I missing?

To be very frank, I'm tired of being told that unless I distrust all government and give up all hope, that I am a puppet. I’m tired of hearing that because I am not willing to judge a 7-month-old presidency as worthless, that means that I’m a sheeple. That I’m part of the problem. That unless I think of Obama as the same as Bush, I am a puppet.

Like I said, I agree that the divisiveness is NOT serving us. But why wouldn’t some people go from castigating Bush to defending Obama if they see a great deal of difference in the two? Your position is that there’s no difference. I strongly disagree. Of course we can point out the similarities. As I said in Ashley’s thread, I can show you similarities between Strom Thurmond and Martin Luther King. That does not mean that, given the opportunity, the outcome of their presidencies would be the same or that they have the same heart or intent… or that we should judge them as the same.

We can discuss these issues without the polarization and divisiveness. In fact, I believe that should be our goal. To learn, not to teach.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

The very complexity of the issues being discussed adds to the problem. Also, any solution that a group of normal citizens is able to analyze for possible outcomes has already been analyzed by the PTB (for lack of a better term), and contingencies planned.

So to those of you who have asked about a Next Step, I propose this:

Go down and cancel your party-oriented affiliation, if you have one, and register to vote as "Declined to State". Note this is not Independent. It is declining to state.

By doing this, you will free yourself from being a peg in a hole, a known quantity that the PTB predict and depend on.

You don't have to change your voting habits, or the kind of candidate you support. Just decline to say.

If a statistically significant number of people do this, it will result in changes to the political landscape in the US.

And I have no idea in what way. I don't think anybody does or could, and the endless punditry - if it were to take place - about the effect would be so much hot air and distraction.

But you want a change? Here is a simple, free, legal way to be part of creating it.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Go down and cancel your party-oriented affiliation, if you have one, and register to vote as "Declined to State".

I LOVE this suggestion! (I didn't marry him for JUST his looks. )

People talk about this situation all the time but rarely make any suggestions about what to do about it. If we have any hope of making any kind of a difference, they have to take a first step. And a second. And a third. It's easy to type in our complaints and argue about the state of the government, but it takes some guts to actually do something about it. If I hadn't always been registered as "Decline" I would do so now.