I am a member of the English Defense League

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by KingAmongstMen

 

The EDL has Black, Hindu and Sikh members.
Hardly racist!

Black, Hindus and Sikhs can't be racist? You've got to be kidding me!

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
And I'm white also, so prejudice against my own people wouldn't make much sense now, would it.

You'd be surprised how prevalent white self-hate is.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
The problem is the organisation is populated by football hooligans and thugs, racists and xenophobes. FASCISTS.

[Repetition of 'fascism lie' #1]
And you know this for fact because...?

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
You can go to Youtube right now, run a search of the EDL, and see the type of people protesting at EDL marches.

A few handpicked examples of racist or Islamophobic protestors does not prove that the whole organisation, or even most of the organisation are racist or Islamophobic.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
I haven't really spoke to an array of EDL members, most of which being fascist.

[Repetition of 'fascism lie' #2]
Tell me under what circumstances you've conversed with an array of EDL members - please. I frequent their forum and maybe 1 in 500 posters there have ever made racist comments. By the way, your misuse of the word 'fascism' is a little embarassing. I strongly suggest you look up the definition and history of the word. A hint: Fascism isn't necessarily synomynous with racism, so EVEN IF the EDL could be proved racist (they have black members so I don't see how) it wouldn't make them fascist. Fascism is the melding of big government with big business, and/or the use of force to silence political opposition. Now, who fits the description better - the violent UAF, who state that 'the far right' should be combatted 'by whatever means necessary' (see the video below), or the EDL who go to extreme lengths to prove themselves as non-violent. Any violence EDL members have been involved in has been in self-defence.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
Like I said, the EDL is populated by racists and intolerant fascists. I've put forward evidence for this, and there's plenty more where it comes from. Instead of direct attacks, how about putting forward evidence contrary to what I'm saying?

[Repetition of 'fascism lie' #3]
Direct attacks? You're the one who wrote the following:

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
The denial by yourself in regards to the fascist nature of the EDL does nothing but draw suspicion to your own character.

[Repetition of 'fascism lie' #4]
Clearly it is YOU who likes to attack character rather than argument in an effort to derail any intelligent debate on the subject.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by KingAmongstMen

 

The EDL has Black, Hindu and Sikh members.
Hardly racist!

I seem to remember they DO have the backing of the Sikh community, and in many of the videos you can see black and asian members of the community marching with the EDL.

Sadly facts are of little consequence to members like Kingamongstmen. As sadly he seems to have let some one make up his mind for him.

Do you understand the nature of the history between Indians and Pakistanis?

Sikh backing is not a counter argument. Of course Sikhs will protest against Muslims. That's what religions about. Attacking opposing beliefs and sending crusades after the infidels.

Try again.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Your arguements are weak and based in assumptions (king amongst men)

Sorry but a few threads back i was at least arguing with people who could hold their own in a debate without resorting to stereotypes, assumptions and dodgy analogies.

You have proved how wrapped in personal opinion and repetitive parrot-like political correctness does nothing for me.



[edit on 29-9-2009 by mr-lizard]

Maybe right, but at the very least I've provided video evidence to support my stereotypes and assumptions.

Have you posted counter-video evidence? No, you've just attacked me, over and over and over. Yawn.

reply to post by KingAmongstMen


Of course they can be racist!
Everyone can.
But a racist organisation would not allow people from any race, including Muslims to be members...the BNP who you are so keen to liken the EDL to will not permit members who are of other ethnicities.
So how are they alike and equally racist?
Their concerns are about Muslim extremists, not Muslims per se.

And you conveniently fail to respond to countless other points raised?

Originally posted by Cythraul

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
And I'm white also, so prejudice against my own people wouldn't make much sense now, would it.

You'd be surprised how prevalent white self-hate is.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
The problem is the organisation is populated by football hooligans and thugs, racists and xenophobes. FASCISTS.

[Repetition of 'fascism lie' #1]
And you know this for fact because...?

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
You can go to Youtube right now, run a search of the EDL, and see the type of people protesting at EDL marches.

A few handpicked examples of racist or Islamophobic protestors does not prove that the whole organisation, or even most of the organisation are racist or Islamophobic.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
I haven't really spoke to an array of EDL members, most of which being fascist.

[Repetition of 'fascism lie' #2]
Tell me under what circumstances you've conversed with an array of EDL members - please. I frequent their forum and maybe 1 in 500 posters there have ever made racist comments. By the way, your misuse of the word 'fascism' is a little embarassing. I strongly suggest you look up the definition and history of the word. A hint: Fascism isn't necessarily synomynous with racism, so EVEN IF the EDL could be proved racist (they have black members so I don't see how) it wouldn't make them fascist. Fascism is the melding of big government with big business, and/or the use of force to silence political opposition. Now, who fits the description better - the violent UAF, who state that 'the far right' should be combatted 'by whatever means necessary' (see the video below), or the EDL who go to extreme lengths to prove themselves as non-violent. Any violence EDL members have been involved in has been in self-defence.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
Like I said, the EDL is populated by racists and intolerant fascists. I've put forward evidence for this, and there's plenty more where it comes from. Instead of direct attacks, how about putting forward evidence contrary to what I'm saying?

[Repetition of 'fascism lie' #3]
Direct attacks? You're the one who wrote the following:

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
The denial by yourself in regards to the fascist nature of the EDL does nothing but draw suspicion to your own character.

[Repetition of 'fascism lie' #4]
Clearly it is YOU who likes to attack character rather than argument in an effort to derail any intelligent debate on the subject.

This is getting tiresome. I have absolutely no connection to the UAF. 2 wrongs do not make a right, the fact the UAF are scum does not detract from the reality of the EDL being scum.

And again, I've posted my video to support the character claims I've made regarding the EDL as an organisation.

You've posted nothing in return. The EDL forum also removes all racism, for obvious reasons. There's a tons of journos watching the forum.

And I've spoken to most EDL members online, mainly via Youtube, and offline, via my social life.

Come on people, there's atleast 4 of you debating me here, and not one piece of evidence has been put forth on your behalf to defend your views.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen

The EDL preaches absolute hatred. Watch the videos. It's evidenced many times over. I've yet to see a peaceful EDL protest without hateful pish. Can you show me evidence of one, please?

That's because the UAF usually gate crash the legal protests, with illegal counter-protests and incite rioting.

And no, I haven't implied that ALL. I've implied that MOST, that the average EDL member is a knuckle dragging fascist.

You can't dig upwards.

You've provided no evidence to the contrary, I've posted evidence for my views.

Erm.. The evidence speaks for itself, look at some of the videos and you'll see blacks, whites, asians, jews walking amongst the EDL.

Also, agnosticism IS atheism. Maybe you should pick up a book and research what you claim to be.

Atheism can be either the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.

Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, spiritual beings, or even ultimate reality — are unknown or, in some forms of agnosticism, unknowable.[1] It is not a religious declaration in itself, and an agnostic may also be a theist or an atheist.

Erm... Maybe it's YOU who should work out the fine differences. If you don't know the differences between agnosticism and atheism then you really shouldn't be arguing your case about something else you don't have a clue about.

There is absolutely no difference between agnosticism and atheism. Both are the lack of belief in a deity. Both are the same.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God.

Freeborn is agnostic. He doesn't know if God exists or not.

The EDL do NOTHING for the cause. Absolutely nothing. They don't enlighten, they don't help in the fight against radical Islam.

Well apart from bringing a taboo subject to the headlines?

I've responded to a good 10 posts now, all of which have been void of any actual evidence to counter my views and evidence put forward.

Maybe you should have a little substance in your own posts and lead by example?

I'll eagerly wait your video footage of the peaceful EDL marches. The ones void of fascist yobs.

The UAF may very well be yobs but they claim to be anti-fascist. Oh wait you're talking about those who are legally protesting? Hmm...

See how confusing it gets. Sorry i had to correct you, it brings me no pleasure.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen


Also, agnosticism IS atheism. Maybe you should pick up a book and research what you claim to be. There is absolutely no difference between agnosticism and atheism. Both are the lack of belief in a deity. Both are the same.

There have been many threads debating this and similar subjects here on ATS, e.g. www.abovetopsecret.com... , and I would be more than happy to debate this either there or in another thread.

This is not the place my friend.

[edit on 29/9/09 by Freeborn]

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by KingAmongstMen

 

Of course they can be racist!
Everyone can.
But a racist organisation would not allow people from any race, including Muslims to be members...the BNP who you are so keen to liken the EDL to will not permit members who are of other ethnicities.
So how are they alike and equally racist?
Their concerns are about Muslim extremists, not Muslims per se.

And you conveniently fail to respond to countless other points raised?

Accepting all ethnicities means nothing. I could create a racist organisation while leaving it open to all races of people.

And while the EDL upon creation was no doubt aimed at stopping radical Islam, there's no denying that it's been hijacked by complete and utter idiots.

There's a reason these scumbags don't show up to support Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins etc. Real fighters against religion, radical and toherwise.

They're classless yobs, by in large, this has been proven time and time again.

What kind of group goes to disrupt a Mosque on ramadan. That's nothing to do with radical Islam. Nothing at all.

Originally posted by Freeborn

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen


Also, agnosticism IS atheism. Maybe you should pick up a book and research what you claim to be. There is absolutely no difference between agnosticism and atheism. Both are the lack of belief in a deity. Both are the same.

There have been many threads debating this and similar subjects here on ATS, e.g. www.abovetopsecret.com... , and I would be more than happy to debate this either here or in another thread.

This is not the place my friend.

Not really mate. Atheism by definition is the lack of a belief in God. Agnostics do not believe in God, therefore they're atheist. Technically. Nothing more I could really say. Done the debate also myself about 900 times over the years, gets tiresome.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen

The EDL preaches absolute hatred. Watch the videos. It's evidenced many times over. I've yet to see a peaceful EDL protest without hateful pish. Can you show me evidence of one, please?

That's because the UAF usually gate crash the legal protests, with illegal counter-protests and incite rioting.

And no, I haven't implied that ALL. I've implied that MOST, that the average EDL member is a knuckle dragging fascist.

You can't dig upwards.

You've provided no evidence to the contrary, I've posted evidence for my views.

Erm.. The evidence speaks for itself, look at some of the videos and you'll see blacks, whites, asians, jews walking amongst the EDL.

Also, agnosticism IS atheism. Maybe you should pick up a book and research what you claim to be.

Atheism can be either the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.

Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, spiritual beings, or even ultimate reality — are unknown or, in some forms of agnosticism, unknowable.[1] It is not a religious declaration in itself, and an agnostic may also be a theist or an atheist.

Erm... Maybe it's YOU who should work out the fine differences. If you don't know the differences between agnosticism and atheism then you really shouldn't be arguing your case about something else you don't have a clue about.

There is absolutely no difference between agnosticism and atheism. Both are the lack of belief in a deity. Both are the same.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God.

Freeborn is agnostic. He doesn't know if God exists or not.

The EDL do NOTHING for the cause. Absolutely nothing. They don't enlighten, they don't help in the fight against radical Islam.

Well apart from bringing a taboo subject to the headlines?

I've responded to a good 10 posts now, all of which have been void of any actual evidence to counter my views and evidence put forward.

Maybe you should have a little substance in your own posts and lead by example?

I'll eagerly wait your video footage of the peaceful EDL marches. The ones void of fascist yobs.

The UAF may very well be yobs but they claim to be anti-fascist. Oh wait you're talking about those who are legally protesting? Hmm...

See how confusing it gets. Sorry i had to correct you, it brings me no pleasure.

So in the video I posted, the UAF were at fault for the actions of the EDL? Jesus, I'm so naive.

You lose on the atheism point and I'm not going there. Atheism, lack of belief in God. Agnosticism, lack of belief in God. Ergo agnosticism is atheism. It's even defined as much in early definitions. You and the rest of the PC brigade of course don't like to accept this. Always trying to appease the religious infidels

And while they do bring a taboo subject to the headline, as noted by many it draws negative headlines and attracts the wrong #ing crowd. I don't want to be assosciated with the scum at the EDL marches. Why would I? It discredits my message. Messengers get shot, you know. That's how life is.

Also again, I do not care for the UAF. What is your fascination with them. By all means start a topic on them if you wish, I'll post alot of video evidence to show them as violent fascists. Oddly, I'm sure you'd agree with me. Even though they're little different to the EDL in the way they conduct themselfs

reply to post by KingAmongstMen


Incorrect.
Agnostics believe there is insufficient evidence either way, and never will be until death, to prove or disprove the existence of God(s) and so it is irrelevant worrying about it and any devout belief either way is rooted in dogma rather than fact.

I genuinely don't care if there is a God or not, why waste my short time on this earth with such trivialities?

A massive difference to an Atheist belief.

As I said before, I think that's an arguement for another thread and have no wish to derail this thread.

End of for now.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
You've posted nothing in return. The EDL forum also removes all racism, for obvious reasons.

I can't take you seriously man. I make a long post of entirely pertinent points and you turn round and claim that I've 'posted nothing in return'. I didn't say you supported the UAF. The point I was making was that it is the UAF who bring violence to the protests, not the EDL - as evidenced in the video I posted. The UAF are willing to do whatever is necessary, self-proclaimed, the EDL are peaceful, self-proclaimed. Yet these proclamations apparently mean nothing in your eyes.

And your assertion that the EDL forum removes all racism is an assumption. I wonder if you'd ever accept the possibility that there's no racism there because - shock horror - there are actually no racists!!!!

Furthermore, you've completely ignored my comment about the term 'fascism' - which I fully backed-up. I take it you're going to keep describing the EDL as 'fascist', despite being shown, clearly, that you're misusing the word.

reply to post by KingAmongstMen


The majority of EDL protests have been peaceful upto the point that the ILLEGAL counter protests by UAF etc broke through Police cordons and attacked the EDL.
If someone attacks me I will fight back, no #ing two ways about it.

But the point is, if the UAF etc had not illegally counter protested and had not attacked the EDL, their protests would have been peaceful and probably completely ignored by MSM.

Whose agenda is getting played out here?

By the way KingAmongstMen. The first EDL protest in Birmingham was entirely peaceful because no counter-protesters turned up. Funny how the protests only became violent when the UAF and their brigade of Muslim youth started turning up. That pretty conclusively proves just who's responsible for the violence. If the UAF and certain sections of the Muslim community genuinely wanted to avoid any violence all they'd need to do is NOT SHOW UP.

But on the other hand, when the EDL don't show, violence still occurs. Interesting huh:

Originally posted by Cythraul
By the way KingAmongstMen. The first EDL protest in Birmingham was entirely peaceful because no counter-protesters turned up. Funny how the protests only became violent when the UAF and their brigade of Muslim youth started turning up. That pretty conclusively proves just who's responsible for the violence. If the UAF and certain sections of the Muslim community genuinely wanted to avoid any violence all they'd need to do is NOT SHOW UP.

But on the other hand, when the EDL don't show, violence still occurs. Interesting huh:

You know what's also funny? The UAF could also make the same pathetic arguments. Having no opposition to abuse doesn't mean the non-existant opposition are at fault.

Also you seem to be misreading my posts. I'm asking for evidence that the EDL are a nice bunch of benevolent and intelligent human beings. Can't see how a group of Asian yobs fits my request, really.

You're passing the buck. Both are as bad as each other in my eyes. I don't see this as justificaiton or an excuse.

I also u2u'd you, Freeborn

[edit on 29-9-2009 by KingAmongstMen]

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
You know what's also funny? The UAF could also make the same pathetic arguments. Having no opposition to abuse doesn't mean the non-existant opposition are at fault.

No, they can't make the same argument. The EDL registered their protest with the police and the UAF didn't. The UAF only turned up because the EDL were there, so who has the right to be there? Why should the EDL not show up to their own booked protests? Makes more sense that the UAF don't show up to someone else's protest doesn't it? The EDL have NEVER turned up at a pre-determined UAF protest.

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
Also you seem to be misreading my posts. I'm asking for evidence that the EDL are a nice bunch of benevolent and intelligent human beings. Can't see how a group of Asian yobs fits my request, really.

How can anyone provide that? Show mundane videos of random British people going about their daily business? I would point you to the countless EDL banners, interviews and website material where they categorically state that they are non-violent and non-racist. But you've already shown that you totally disregard this material.

Go to the forum, see what the discussion's like. It's here.

[edit on 29/9/2009 by Cythraul]

reply to post by KingAmongstMen


How can they be equally as bad?

One is legally voicing it's concerns about Muslim extremism in this country; the other is ILLEGALLY meeting and provoking The Police, legal protesters and innocent passers bye.

How can that be equally as bad?

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen
You lose on the atheism point and I'm not going there. Atheism, lack of belief in God. Agnosticism, lack of belief in God. Ergo agnosticism is atheism. It's even defined as much in early definitions.

Toyota, Japanese car manufacturer. Suzuki, Japanese car manufacturer. Completely different

Seriously, quit with the "agnostics are atheists" lines.

They are two different things. Atheists believe in metaphysics, agnostics don't.

Stop trying to fight a moot point because you simply got it wrong. Accept it and get over it and let's get back on topic.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by KingAmongstMen

 

How can they be equally as bad?

One is legally voicing it's concerns about Muslim extremism in this country; the other is ILLEGALLY meeting and provoking The Police, legal protesters and innocent passers bye.

How can that be equally as bad?

Turn of phrase. They're both bad is my point. Whether one abides the law on technicallity or not. I've seen nothing to suggest the EDL are a peaceful organisation.

Only claims on your behalf supported by no actual evidence. Why not just prove to me the EDL aren't racists and fascists(yes i understand the term) and post videos of these peaceful protests where they're being provoked and doing nothing wrong themselfs?