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Short thread- How I faced off against JWs and basically won....

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posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


You seem to have missed a point: While I have had crap happen to me, it's been REAL, no matter how much I wanted it to be a figment of an overactive imagination. So, I am fighting something. I just wish I knew WHAT. Demons, Satan, it's obvious some of this crap has a name that's been assigned to it.. When I had at least the comfort of thinking I was going bonkers, Something always came up and externally pimp slapped me.




posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 11:21 AM
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Oh, if God wanted to, He could say anything, even if it wasn't the truth right before He said it. But the instance it is uttered by God, it becomes truth.


Well, you just destroyed the Christian Religion in 1 shot. I realized this on the way back from the store...

Here's my reasoning in an easy to swallow form:

'Christian' says, "God says he's going to (example) send you a bar of gold, so you can pay all your bills"

*Believer listens, prays, believes, and NOTHING HAPPENS.*

*Believer goes back to Christian* "Hey! Nothing happened! I am being fed to the bill collectors!"

Christian *caveat, caveat, excuse, excuse, blame, blame, random rationalizations, small print, Bible verses x and y out of context* "- and that's why your prayer wasn't answered."

*Believer goes atheist, turns into grump*

Above is how the RELIGION works. Now, if what you say is true, then a HUGE % of Christians are liars, either on purpose, or misled. Because I've heard God 'say' (Thru pastors, ect) a LOT of stuff that quite bluntly turned out to be bull*shirt*. The implications of this would be pretty much mind blowing and disastrous to millions, especially the ones honestly trying to do the right thing.

It also brings up something else which makes me wonder- If nothing God doesn't say comes into existence, Satan's little revolt should NEVER have happened. Free will or not. My reasoning- from what I have been taught: God is GOOD. I have been taught over and over and over- evil simply cannot exist near God, or in heaven, so if Satan was fundamentally flawed when created, God's mere existence should have been enough to instantly destroy him. It'd be exactly like creating a ball of antimatter- the absolute INSTANT it's made, and one atom of anything made contact with it... *insert mushroom cloud here*

So- we're missing some massive information on even 2 of the simplest things. No, I'm not trying to be a wise acre. For some reason, I got a knack for asking mind numbing, head exploding questions....

[edit on 14-9-2009 by wylekat]

[edit on 14-9-2009 by wylekat]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by wylekat

Above is how the RELIGION works.

Which is 99.9% of the problem.


Whenever you hear someone say that God is going to give you a bar of gold (your example), clamp that wallet in good and tight with a log chain. Someone's after it! As I mentioned earlier, whenever you tie God's hands by asking for something overly specific, you make it hard for God to get that to you. He is handling requests from a few billion people right about now. While He can handle that, it is sort of selfish on our part to start trying to use God for a sugar daddy. That selfishness in itself is an indication that we are not following in Jesus' footsteps, as He never showed selfishness during His ministry.

Let's say I need a place to live. Now, I would really like to have a nice three-bedroom Colonial with a spacious deck on the back of it, central heat and AC, brick would be nice, and of course I want a two-car garage on that. That's what I want. What I need is a totally different animal. God will supply my needs, but there are no promises He will supply all of my wants. If He does, great! If He doesn't, it's not a big deal to me.

Too many people make the mistake of asking for wants, not for needs. I believe God knows what I need even better than I do; I can't see the future, nor can I read God's mind to figure out the details of what He has in plan for me. That's why it's called 'faith'. I don't need clarification of God's love for me via the biggest house on the block, the largest TV, the shiniest car. That's simply not the reason I follow Jesus. I follow Him because I am amazed at the beauty of the creation I find myself in, and because I understand what He did for me. I love Jesus, period, and that means I want to please Him. Pleasing God pleases Jesus, so I strive to please God. I need no further reward, no carrot to chase.

A lot of those preachers you mention who claim to speak for God are charlatans who twist the religion (as opposed to the faith) into something it is not in an attempt to garner power over others. Ironically, there are verses in the Bible can be interpreted to indicate that having power over others is in itself against God's wishes.


The fact is, God can speak directly to you. He doesn't need a preacher (although it does seem easier to get some people to listen to a physical preacher... go figure). That was the whole point of Jesus coming. Before Jesus, God could not speak directly to humans except through certain rituals designed to keep God's presence from destroying them (it didn't always work either... Hebrew High Priests wore bells on their clothing and had a rope tied to them when they entered the Holy of Holies... if the bell stopped ringing, the people outside would be able to pull the dead body out of the temple by the rope). Jesus brought forgiveness, and all one has to do is accept that forgiveness in order to open up a direct one-on-one channel to God. Of course, that doesn't always mean you can hear Him when He says something, but that's another subject. Suffice it here to say you don't blame someone for not talking loud enough if you're totally deaf.

Now, as to the creation of Satan (evil)... that's a real good question. I wish I had a definitive answer, but I really don't. I think of it this way: if you go out and buy a mule, that mule is yours. You can do everything the mule needs done, feed it well, keep it clean, make sure it's healthy, and still that mule can balk. You didn't make it balk, and it doesn't have your permission to balk, but it balks anyway. The fault lies with the mule, not with you.

Why could Satan choose evil if he wasn't created with free will? Again, all I can do is say what I believe at this time. Satan was originally Lucifer, the arch-angel of light, and the most powerful arch-angel of them all. Perhaps when God created him, God got so close to free will in his creation the creation itself was able to turn from God. I dunno, that seems like God made a mistake, which is not a concept I am comfortable with.

Tell you what: next prayer, ask for knowledge of why and how that happened. And feel free to clue me in when you find out.


TheRedneck



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 07:22 PM
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Have I managed to learn thru the school of hard knocks how to take on religion just on brute force, or.....?



Hey...the way I would look at it is that it isn't a competition. You can believe in Christ and not be a "Christian." By true definition, a Christian should be a Jew that follows the way of Christ......Christ's Jew Way, if you would. Christ, if he existed, was a Jew. He wasn't preaching: "Okay Jews...stop being Jews and follow me instead." It was more like: "Hey Jew, follow me. I know the way to God because I am really good at being a Jew. I am the King of the Jews," as it were.

I think honesty for these poor souls roaming the streets is good. It certainly confuses them when your convictions are stronger than there's. But they're really not their convictions anyway. It is what in brainwashed into them. Most of them, their beliefs are made of straw.

Let them have a seat. Give them a cup of coffee and see if you can make them cry on the way out the door. Don't kick them out...make them pray to leave.

God isn't a religion!




[edit on 14-9-2009 by Excitable_Boy]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 07:24 PM
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ive been reading this thread. and it seems strange to me that some people believe there is satan and daemons but not God?



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by the illuminator
 


Greetings Illuminator. Nice avatar...is that Rutger Hauer from Blade Runner?

Personally, I don't believe in the devil...but to each his or her own. I do think it strange though that someone could believe in Satan but not God. Seems like you can't have Satan without God...otherwise, who is Satan the antithesis of?



[edit on 14-9-2009 by Excitable_Boy]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by wylekat
 


this is because the "god" word as i call it, is assumed to apply to all the elohiym, and as a result, at any point a reference is made to an elohiym class being, the text infers it to be GOD. an elohiym is a spirit being. the word is applied to YAHWEH/JEHOVAH, angels, and even the dearly departed. a spirit being, in a non-corporeal body, is by definition, able to be in the vicinity of YAHWEH. the flesh is the limitation.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by undo]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 08:48 PM
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reply to post by Excitable_Boy
 





Don't kick them out...make them pray to leave.


Which what I think these 2 were doing towards the end. I believe I had rammed them against the wall just because of stubbornness and asking too many really hard questions, and poking holes in everything they had to offer- but doing it with pure honesty. I really doubt I would have had quite the same effect if I was having fun, doing it specifically to make them wanna run for the hills (I don't operate like that, unless the person pushes all my buttons at once).



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by Excitable_Boy
 





Personally, I don't believe in the devil...


You woulda after you've gone thru some of the crap I have....
Read past posts on here for some of the examples. I didn't include everything I have gone thru....



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 09:22 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 





Whenever you hear someone say that God is going to give you a bar of gold (your example), clamp that wallet in good and tight with a log chain. Someone's after it! As I mentioned earlier, whenever you tie God's hands by asking for something overly specific, you make it hard for God to get that to you.


So, in reality, these 'preachers' that do this specific crap are tying God's hands and sticking the believer's head in a noose...? It's what I keep getting when I ponder it from both sides... if *I* were to ask too specifically, I screw things up (makes note to self), but these preachers that spell it all out.... they sound truly dangerous.

Occasionally, I'll ask for a specific thing that I need (or want, but I am pretty good about separating the 2.... the latter was always handled in a joking manner: "Ooooh! God, can I have (insert thing here)? Awww darnitall." Usually tho, there's no other way than to BE specific. I once wrote down an 'order form' (with direction from someone) to God for what kind of wife I wanted. Gee. Guess what. I'm still SINGLE.


I've pared it down to 'appealing to me', the other stuff I list is for people consumption... No one gets how my mind works.. and my standards for beauty are RARELY like the rest of the world's. There have been times, I swear on my mother's eyes, women that I did like, God told them to basically marry me, and they flat out refused. It's one reason why I HATE the 'free will' card shoved up my nose... I gave up MY free will concerning a wife- it's too much to ask that a woman cant do the same?! It's always been so funny how that the 'get out of will free card' works for the ones who just gave God the Middle Finger of Contempt, and then ask forgiveness.... Hey, after all it's just some guy- he can go find a hooker if he's THAT bad off (yeah.. I heard that one, too)




Now, as to the creation of Satan (evil)... that's a real good question. I wish I had a definitive answer, but I really don't.


Like I said- I can come up with some real heart stoppers question wise- I didn't REALLY start thinking this sort of stuff til after I got trashed by Christianity. Then when the bullcrap with my ex got to a fever pitch, and I started to feel little like Alice in Wonderland... I almost had people in churches want to run AWAY from me in what can only be described as fright.
I doubt anyone's gonna have the answers. As for God making a mistake... *cough* I wont go there. I just wont.




Tell you what: next prayer, ask for knowledge of why and how that happened. And feel free to clue me in when you find out.


Ok... will try. Dont expect much, if anything, tho.


[edit on 14-9-2009 by wylekat]

[edit on 14-9-2009 by wylekat]



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 10:12 PM
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Hi Wylekat!

I feel for you... it's tough no doubt. You sorta remind me of Asaph (read Psalms 73)

Anyway... as for the two JW's, at least give them credit for trying, after all, they are not getting paid for what they do, they don't even earn browny points. So what's in it for them?

You want things to get better for you? PAY IT FORWARD

Acts 20:35 - "There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving."



posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by wylekat

So, in reality, these 'preachers' that do this specific crap are tying God's hands and sticking the believer's head in a noose...?

Well, yes and no.

The preacher that destroys the true faith of his followers is not doing the work of God; he is doing the bidding of Satan. Instead of receiving inspiration from the Holy Spirit to pass on to those needing to hear it, he is receiving those whispers from Satan, designed to do just the opposite. If the person listening to him then accepts the preacher's words as true, then that whisper has been amplified, and yes, God's hands are tied to some point due to the free will of the person being in conflict with God's will. But no, God is not lessened by this, and it is actually the person themselves tying God's hands, not Satan directly.

Always remember that you are talking to men in the physical. Men can make mistakes. Even me. I do not claim to speak for God. All I am doing here is trying to be a friend and help you out with a few of the pearls of insight I have received throughout the years. Always, regardless of who it is and how wonderful the advice is, seek God to be sure. If you can't hear Him directly, you still have His word in the Bible to use as a guideline.


I once wrote down an 'order form' (with direction from someone) to God for what kind of wife I wanted. Gee. Guess what. I'm still SINGLE.

I once wrote a similar list. Guess what? That was about 15 years ago and only one of the things I wrote down came to pass. Not exactly what I would call convincing. I won't say that technique can't work, but apparently it didn't work for me.

I just can't place the blame on God. If someone messed things up, I would say it is much more likely to be me.


I gave up MY free will concerning a wife- it's too much to ask that a woman cant do the same?! It's always been so funny how that the 'get out of will free card' works for the ones who just gave God the Middle Finger of Contempt, and then ask forgiveness....

You see, that's the dangerous thing about free will. You can't force someone else to give theirs up, and you should never give yours up to another person. Free will means the person who has it is free to do as they choose (it also mean they will bear the consequences). If you give up your free will to someone else, you become basically their slave.

Even God doesn't ask you to give up your free will to Him. He only wants us to place His will above ours, which is different than giving ours up. Remember the story of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane? Jesus prayed, so hard that he sweated blood, for the coming crucifixion to be forgone. He did not want to go through with the pain and torment and absolute humiliation that was coming. But, after begging that this cup pass from Him, He added "Not my will, but Thy will be done." He did not say "I give up my will." He still did not want to go through with it, but He submitted His will to God's will.

You know, this could be part of your ongoing difficulty. Perhaps you should be much more careful of giving up your own free will. Just make sure you pursue God's will (as you understand it, not as someone tells you it is) at the same time. God does not want zombies; He would have made a planet full if that were the case.

TheRedneck



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 12:58 AM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 





You know, this could be part of your ongoing difficulty. Perhaps you should be much more careful of giving up your own free will.


Ew. Now I find this out. Does it help God's the only one I did give this certain freedom up to? At least I know I'd have a shot at getting it back (maybe). I made this fun li'l mistake after my ex got married. I swore up and down I'd wait til she was divorced, and take her back, and told God I'd wait til she did. (Yes, I AM AN IDIOT!!!!!!!) It was an act of desperation like few probably have seen... and even less would have the mindset to even attempt. I was kinda reminded of this after I did the other prayer, and some thinking while working around the house. I better find a way to undo it- Unless ya cant back out of a half crazed pact..... Then I'm screwed....



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 06:50 PM
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Tell God your situation and ask Him to do His will with it (not yours)...then maybe you will see a difference.

Just a suggestion...

Peace!



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by wylekat
(Sorry for the delay; work schedule has picked up the last few days)


Does it help God's the only one I did give this certain freedom up to?

That, I promise you, you did not do. God will not accept such a 'gift'. Satan will. The difference is in what they each want from us.

God created mankind with free will. Why would He want mankind to give that up? He doesn't; He only wants mankind to again be what He created, without the stigma of that earlier rejection of Him. Jesus is a second chance, not a chance to give all away.

Satan is jealous of God. Satan is jealous of mankind (I believe because we had the one thing Lucifer did not - free will). It is in Satan's interests to destroy mankind's free will. He works toward this goal by manipulating man using our inability to see the spiritual side of our existence. He convinces preachers that they should take their congregation in a different path than what God wants for them. He convinces people that the way to happiness lies in keeping up with the Jones. He tells people to behave in private in manners that they would never do in public, because no one else is watching. He places a monetary value on everything around us, even on our very lives, and uses green paper that has no intrinsic value to do it.

Satan has the ability to do none of this on his own. He has to use us. Satan can't make life hard for you: he can't cheat you out of your money, he can't fire you from your job or prevent you from getting a job you want, and he can't convince you that your dreams are hopeless. What he can do is to convince other humans (and ourselves) to do this. He can (and in many ways, has) use humanity itself to destroy the human spirit by convincing them, one small whisper at a time, that life is not the grand adventure in success that God really created for us. And every time he manages to destroy another person's hopes and dreams, he wins another battle in the ongoing war.

You haven't given God your free will, because God doesn't want it. You have allowed others to do Satan's bidding (knowingly or unknowingly) in your life by not realizing what you really have in God, thus jeopardizing that freedom. God is whispering as well, but where Satan will use lies and deceit, God will not. He will not violate your right to listen to whichever side you choose. But regardless of what you have done in the past or what has happened in the past, Jesus' sacrifice, that second chance, is still there.


Believe it or not, you really are listeing to those whispers form Satan. They are just amplified by those around you.

As they are for anyone who believes the truth.

TheRedneck



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 08:44 PM
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It'd help if God would DO stuff and not expect me to do a song and dance routine. I'm worn out- when does God take over?



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by wylekat

It'd help if God would DO stuff and not expect me to do a song and dance routine. I'm worn out- when does God take over?

As best as I can tell, in about 10-15 years.



No, I'm not being facetious. The thing is, God has already done something... several somethings, in fact.
  • He created us as both spiritual and physical beings, unique among His realm.

  • He gave us dominion over everything on the planet, save over each other.

  • He spent centuries worrying with one of the most bull-headed peoples in the world, the Hebrews/Jews, just to get someone here to teach us about who we really are.

  • He sacrificed His son to pay our spiritual debt.

  • He, through Jesus, gave us back that dominion we had frittered away.

  • He, again through Jesus, gave us power over Satan and his followers.

  • He gave us the ability to come to Him directly through Jesus' sacrifice.

  • He managed to get enough people to write down the history of all this so we could have a written record of it all. Even with the multiple translations, it is still fairly accurate.

You know, I hate it when I get that answer too. Believe me, I know it isn't what you wanted to hear. But the truth of the matter is that it isn't just God who can handle things; it is YOU. The power you need, all the power you will ever need, may come from God, but it is channeled through YOU.


John 14:12-13

12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

You see, God has already done His part. He's sitting there ready and willing to send you whatever power you need to do just as Jesus promised. There's nothing more for Him to do. But in order to receive something, you have to take some action yourself. Just like winning a lottery, where you have to turn in the winning ticket, so to get that power from God you need, you have to receive it. If someone sends you a check in the mail, you can't spend it until you get it out of the mailbox and to your bank.

Right now, that check for everything you need is sitting in your mailbox. It's just that every time you start to go get it, someone tells you it didn't come today. So instead of going ahead and believing it is there, you throw up your hands and decide maybe you'll get it tomorrow.

That little prayer you said was like you getting up off the couch. Belief, even in the face of adversity is you walking to the mailbox. Just remember, you get nothing if you turn around just shy of it. You have to go the full distance to get to that check.

TheRedneck



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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If Yahweh made every one of His children “healthy, wealthy, and wise” would not everyone be a follower of The Way?

The Children of Yahweh do what is right not because they are “paid to do so”….

We “do the right thing” because it the “right” thing to do.

The “experience” is a test of “faith”.

Our “rewards” are in “Heaven”….



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by KOGDOG
 





If Yahweh made every one of His children “healthy, wealthy, and wise” would not everyone be a follower of The Way?


Well, there's what the religion likes to portray. 'Be happy! Be Healthy! Be rich! Come to church, and you'll end up SO much better off!' Just when it all goes to crap, don't anyone DARE complain. Because then, you'll be told Satan's entered your life. *sigh*

If God made us the way he did, I am sure he can stand a little criticism (or a whole lot of good old fashioned screaming bloody murder)- instead of having the 'happy chant' forced on people.

I wish I could find a good church (and YES, I would like a good woman there as well), that doesn't use me for their own ends. What NEEDS to be founded is a church for people like me- alone, tired, and been used by the 'Christian' church like a roll of TP. Someplace where the pastor doesn't toodle around in a $50,000 luxury car, the people don't feel the need to be dressed into oblivion... Let's face it- we all showed up naked on this planet, and we're gonna go back the same way. God really doesn't care what's worn (unless it's REALLY offensive). Someplace where the women actually FOLLOW the bible, and want someone to love and care for them, and not be an ATM and/ or arm candy. Same goes for the guys.

Too bad such a place is a pipe dream...



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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reply to post by wylekat

Too bad such a place is a pipe dream...

Keep your faith. Those churches exist, at least in most part.

The chances are that you will never find the absolutely perfect church, because all churches are run by men. But I have known churches where the preacher worked during the week just like everyone else, and got maybe $20 for his sermon on Sunday morning. I have known churches where people were actually kind to one another, to a fault. I have known churches where how you looked was irrelevant (my kids still go to that one).

I have also seen those churches change for the worse, and new churches open up where the things you desire are in abundance once more.

Don't judge god by what His followers do amid the war times they are in. Just look for your safe haven, and accept it when you find it.

TheRedneck



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