Short thread- How I faced off against JWs and basically won....

Originally posted by undo
well let me put it this way, all the religions brought the viewpoints of the RCC with them when they broke away or formed later. there's not a single concept in the biblical text that doesn't have a RCC stamp on it and that hasn't found it's way into every christian religion on the earth. as a result today, there are people still trying to claim the earth is the center of the universe and is flat as a pancake. that's what i mean about bashing people upside the head with it. half the time, we are basing it on someone else's theology, not what it actually says.

im sorry but what?

the RCC's doctrines date back to babylon. in fact alot of them are followed almost identically to the way they were in babylon (the trinity, virgin worship, clergy/laymen classes, nuns)

linking RCC to the bible doesnt work.

you don't want to get me started on paul.

guy was brilliant. on fire. no doubt about it. but he had the traditional synagogue stance on women and had one heckuva time separating it out. as a result, for 2000 years, some churches still teach that women have to abide by the traditions of 30 AD. because in whatever BC, a woman believed a liar. it's like .....i don't have words to put it into that do it justice.

so your objection with paul lies with your disagreement regarding women teachers?

if paul was accepted by the other apostles, then i doubt very much he was a wolf

reply to post by miriam0566

there is a direct parallel to being a parent made here. so consider the context. would you let your child eat candy all the time because he wants to? would you refuse a doctor to administer medicine because you child is scared of the shot? god knows what is the best for us, which goes beyond our immediate wants and needs.

This is a preposterous excuse for no evidence of prayer actually working.

Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

As a parent I would not make such a promise to begin with, but if I were an omniscient parent as the yahwehjesus god is claimed to be then I would already knot the outcome before I made the promise so would logically not make the promise.


This passage is quite clear and the keyword is "Whatever" the passage in no way indicates that the speaker is or intends to attach conditions.

It will not do, to try and argue that jesus didn't really mean this because some other character added conditions.

The above passage is a very clear easy to follow instruction on how to pray from an allegedly "Inerrant" deity.

The passage does not continue with - "When I say whatever, what I really mean is whatever I think you should have"

If you insist on using the child analogy how about this -
" Dear Jesus I ask that you grant me according to your promise an unlimited supply of candy that will not rot my teeth".


So jesus won't give you things that could be bad for you !!!??

Well how about the child that screaming from let's say the effects of depleted uranium, and the parent asks jesus -

"Lord please heal my child from this terrible suffering "
But nothing happens the child still burns and screams, are you now going to say that the reason that jesus refused to do anything was in the long term it was bad for the child ?

Unfortunately in this scenario the mother suddenly dies and the child is screaming alone in the woods. After another 24 hours of excruciating pain the child is eaten alive by some wild animals.

Where was jesus ? Clearly according to your interpretation of the above scripture, not only will jesus not answer a prayer if it'll do you harm, neither will he answer a prayer if it will do you good.


Please don't insult me by saying that scenarios like the above don't happen because they do "daily".

I stick with my initial observation that, in these instances "context" is a cop out for -

(a) jesus is a liar and does not do has he says he will

Or

(b) jesus is imaginary.

Given the fact that there is no evidence proving that prayer works even by employing the "context" rule. It would be fair to conclude that jesus remains imaginary.

Originally posted by moocowman

Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

This passage is quite clear and the keyword is "Whatever" the passage in no way indicates that the speaker is or intends to attach conditions.

matt 6:[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread.
[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
[15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

order of importance.

1 - santification of god's name
2 - that the kingdom be established and that god's will be done
3 - THEN we reach our daily NEEDS. specifically food

"whatever you ask in prayer"

so no, "whatever" does not imply "anything"

Well how about the child that screaming from let's say the effects of depleted uranium, and the parent asks jesus -

"Lord please heal my child from this terrible suffering "
But nothing happens the child still burns and screams, are you now going to say that the reason that jesus refused to do anything was in the long term it was bad for the child?

no actually i answered that before.

there are reasons that god allows suffering temporarily.

in terms of why god doesnt answer certain prayers, there are several reasons.

1 - god doesnt owe mandkind anything. i dont mean this in a mean way, but more in a legal way. mankind's father, adam, made the decision to live independantly of god. he showed this by disobeying a simple commandment. part of that independence means that man is not entitled to divine protection. as a result, bad things happen. gen 3:[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.[24] So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

2 - god is certainly not going to answer the prayers of those who make no effort to serve him. part of serving him is loving others. 1 peter 3:[12] For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

3 - if a person is serving god, god is not going to grant a prayer that would in the end damage one's spirituality.

4 - god is not going to grant prayers that break his laws. (praying to get laid tonight is likely to get ignored.)

5 - and finally, sometimes he doesnt grant them because its not the way he wants to do things.

however.. many prayers do get answewred if -

1 - what is requested is in harmony with god's will.

2 - what is requested will help further the preaching work.

Unfortunately in this scenario the mother suddenly dies and the child is screaming alone in the woods. After another 24 hours of excruciating pain the child is eaten alive by some wild animals.

Where was jesus ? Clearly according to your interpretation of the above scripture, not only will jesus not answer a prayer if it'll do you harm, neither will he answer a prayer if it will do you good.


Please don't insult me by saying that scenarios like the above don't happen because they do "daily".

I stick with my initial observation that, in these instances "context" is a cop out for -

(a) jesus is a liar and does not do has he says he will

Or

(b) jesus is imaginary.

Given the fact that there is no evidence proving that prayer works even by employing the "context" rule. It would be fair to conclude that jesus remains imaginary.

many prayers have been answered for me. but i realised that they all fell into the above criteria

the problem with prayers is that many people forget that

- we are not the most important thing in the world. that sometimes there are things more important than us.
- that god is working toward something and that there is alot of work for christians to do

miriam,

you are putting the horse before the cart. when a person is hurting and has already indicated the abuse he's had to take at the hands of well meaning but obviously ill informed people, how do you think adding more corrective, judgmental, psychological pain on top of that is going to fix it? even common sense would indicate that isn't going to help.

i recall having an infection that went to my brain, brainstem encephalitis, they called it. i went slowly bonkers from it. people just thought i was being a bad person because my behavior changed and i became less and less in control of my emotions and bodily functions. we have literally no idea what this guy is going through, whacking him over the head with scripture when he clearly already knows the scripture, is going to do what, precisely?

reply to post by miriam0566


So- what's the point of praying? If it's all NO, unless you meet the stringent, narrow guidelines, and prayers to save someone's life, or to be married to someone (and have it turn into a 20 year backfire with NO respite) are completely ignored- WHY BOTHER? I cant say I was in a life or death situation- but my mental and emotional health has been beaten down my entire LIFE- and not one simple prayer for help in dealing with it OR stopping it has been so much as given a derisive snort. The 'I give up, and God can go find a nice volcano to jump in' portion of things has been only after I have been laid out with some pretty nasty problems.

It still boils my backside how others can act like complete and utter jackasses, and anything they ask for gets taken care of- satan doing it or not.

reply to post by wylekat


i understand what you're saying. sometimes i get answers immediately and sometimes i don't find out what the answer was till years later, often i don't recognize when it arrives and find it in retrospect, and sometimes there doesn't appear to be an answer at all. i look at it as a big circle of time and i'm only passing along it, one point at a time. in the center of the circle is god, who sees all points simultaneously. for whatever reason, he answers some things immediately and some things unfold over time. i realize my limitations being that i'm not omniscient and attribute my lack of understanding on any given topic, to that. it's the only way i found to reasonably deal with some of the questions you've also brought up.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by undo]

reply to post by undo


At the risk of sounding like a freaking nut- ah screw it. I AM a freaking nut....

One of the main reasons I am put off:

I loved a girl- I loved her so much, I would have split the planet with my bare hands for her. She married behind my back and the wound went very, very deep. From then til now- Any attempts I make to have a relationship blow up in my face (think nuclear mushroom cloud), All with NO explanation, the woman suddenly just disappears, or I have the usual various and sundry things a crappy woman does to someone- BTW- 90% of them? Christians- either in name or otherwise- still- it's what they marketed themselves as.

Here's the fun, fun part:

The past 5 years, I have been inundated by images of her, what I can only call 'visions' into her life, seen her name in more places than should be possible, And basically have had her 'around' me well more than I care to want. a Lot of the images and the dreams have left me waking up screaming, crying, and almost to the point of wanting to die. I have prayed. Nonstop to get me either thru this, or to STOP it. No one I talked to had so much as a clue (everyone from practitioners in 'magic' to the few Christians I can trust, to a real, live schizophrenic), and the majority have turned a slight shade of green after I described all I had been thru.

I have a full range of theories- but NOT A THING from the one I am supposed to be getting my answers from! All I'd get when I prayed was happy, warm thoughts about a woman who is MARRIED, and has kids! 'Makes no sense' doesn't even scratch the surface!

I have a dual thought on this- that she's somehow actually MY wife (Somehow, God decided we were married- don't ask, it's the best I could come up with.), and her marriage to this guy is a sham- Or her marriage to him is ending like a train wreck, and it'll be a divorce soon- in either case, I have flat out refused to take her back. God's heard this in varying, loud decibels, and recently, language that clearly violates the T&C on here. Before it got truly nasty, I was pleading to have the mess taken down to something manageable, when it got nasty, I asked for it to be removed, and after I researched, asked, talked, and watched eyes pop like cartoon characters in a wild take, and sat down and weighed all I (had tried to )(learn)ed- and yes, I covered the satan angle every which way... it made less sense than the one I stated- because it wasn't buying HIM any points, either. Not to mention people who DID actually, honestly pray got zip as to it being an attack. These same people (who now think I may be a little tetched in the noggin from it all) had no idea. They gave me theories- and the 'marriage/ divorce thing was one of them.

Oh- add in the fact that I DID get free of this for several months. Guess who I ran into at Epcot some time back.... It came back with a triple vengeance. It also marked the first time I felt a need to get drunk at my happy place. Which I did. I almost tried to go home, but the person I was with about decked me. (FYI- she wasn't wearing a wedding ring, and yes, IT WAS HER. No doubt anywhere in my mind. I didn't talk to her, I tried to ooze into a crack in the floor.)

Granted, not as bad as some of the poster's problems on here, BUT BAD ENOUGH. It's been 15 years of seeing relationship after relationship, then this insanity, and now, I am seeing all over the place, besides her name- the word 'Summon', in all it's tenses. I've gone to the point of cursing Rod Serling- if I lose my what's left of my sense of humor about it, I'd probably go completely out of my mind.

So, feel free to call me nuts. heard it. I call MYSELF nuts. Call me anything you like. But the fact remains.... It's happening. I cant even blame it on drugs, because I have never done any. Like one poster pointed out, I am articulate, so I haven't gone around on the carousel one too many times. I have a logical approach to a lot that I do. I can use my art and 3d programs with a good measure of competence. I can sit in on any of the 'take a hard look at this UFO/ Alien/ Apollo 20 photo/ movie on this site, and get a good idea of how real it might be, or if it's CGI. I see some of those threads that deserve a hard dunk into the skunkworks, and just roll my eyes at them, because of the pure bunk that they are. My brain works reasonably well. I know when my cats need food/ water/ their box changed (usually because they will drive me to distraction 30 seconds after it's needed). I can produce a darn good plastic model- I even have an old USS Enterprise kit I was asked to refurbish!- the starship, not the carrier. Think Good Ol' Testers yellow glue splotches on every last seam.

And yet- I have this 'thing' driving me coo coo for cocoapuffs! I am still able to function, I still have retained my abilities, my talents, my mental capacities... and yet....

BTW- knock off the 'first love' stuff. She wasn't my first love. This is something entirely not that. What, I dunno, but it aint that.

reply to post by wylekat


i had something like that happen when i had obsessed over a cute guy when i was in high school (i'm female, btw). after a few years of similar strangeness, i literally had to disconnect from the obsession before it went away, which was both a conscience effort and a prayer effort. i learned that obsession does not equal love, even if it has alot of emotion attached to it. sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. i don't know if that's your situation but it sounded a bit like mine, so i thought i'd share what i did about it.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by undo]

reply to post by undo


Oh, trust me... I have tried. It's being forced upon me.

Useless second line- filler only.

reply to post by wylekat


might i suggest it may be a hormonal imbalance ? and this is leading to you "summoning" her to your locality in a sense? obsessing is another way of saying focus, although perhaps more like focus on steroids. and the end result is this thing reigniting itself repeatedly like a vicious circle.

are you well physically?

My only complaint is a bad back.

Without causing a whole ugly rift- and asking this in an honest way... is a lack of female companionship throwing me completely off my horse?

Not that there's any way to fix that...

reply to post by wylekat


i don't know. a doctor or another man might be better qualified to answer that.

I went to a church (baptist) for the first time in my life last Sunday. The first things I saw was a drum kit and a stack of NIVs (Counterfiet Bibles, Coalated by among others a lesbian witch). I almost left right there and then but service started and I felt trapped.

I couldn't bear to watch as a hippie Kid with a bandana beat on the drums, and the rest of the mediocre youth band played dreary rock songs for Jesus, while a congregation of mainly old grey haired peope tried to sing along in their best choir voices.

I ask the Pastor (a spitting image of father ted) if he had any KJV's he searched the entire premices and couldn't find a single one. NIV versus grated my ears for the length of his short sermon (a tiny morsel of meat sandwhiched between lengthy rock sessions).

I showed the Pastor where the NIV renders lucifer as the Morning Star, a title only designated to our Lord Jesus Christ. He replied that he ASSUMED that any incongruency in the different Bibles came due to a hard place to translate. Seeing as my Bible tells me that "the heart is wicked and deceitful above all things ", I assume that incongruency has to do with deceit and wickedness, ultimately it is an issue of the heart not the mind.

But what does it matter, which (if any) Church I pick, Jesus picked me. He washed away my sins with his blood, he humbled and nurtured me, He is my Lord and Saviour the Christ, and I love him.

Praise His Holy Name Forever. Amen.



[edit on 10-9-2009 by StopComplaining]

[edit on 10-9-2009 by StopComplaining]

reply to post by StopComplaining


we're all at very different places in our journey but ultimately looking to same place for our guidance and inspiration (well, usually, anyway. .. still not thrilled with book worship).

Reply to post by wylekat

I would venture to say that you probably could take on any organised religion if that's what you so desire.

However, the things you speak of are so mundane.

When dealing with your own personal spirituality(not organised religion) you have to understand key elements. A few of these key elements are that -

1. Life is what YOU make it, because we as humans have FREEWILL. This is also one reason why there is suffering. In a system of freewill we can do what we CHOOSE. Therefore there must be choices and opposites. If there is love, there is hate. If there is pleasure, there is pain.

2. If you believe in Jesus Christ, then he is the example to go by. He is "the way". When looking at his life, what did he have? Not a whole lot huh? Also, he suffered. We must suffer too then. I know it isn't fair, but that isn't something that is subject to change.

And 3. It is personal. You must decide what works for you. You cannot take someone elses beliefs and make them your own. Then you are placing your "faith" in THEIR belief system. It isn't your own. So make it your own. Study it, examine it, interpret it for yourself...that is why we each have eyes of our own. So that we can see the truth for ourselves.

I hope you find the answers you desire. If not from me, then atleast from somewhere.

Be safe in the life you hold so dear, friend.

A2D


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Reply to post by moocowman

What you are missing out on in Mark 11:24 is the keyphrase : believe that you have received it.

It is difficult to believe that your child has been healed if you can still physically hear them scream, yes? Jesus says "faith as small as a mustard seed". Yet many of us don't even possess that. It is because we are so engrained to this world physically that we cannot believe until we perceive. O we of little faith.

Also, I have noticed a lot of "christians" pray to Jesus. Glory to the Father...not to Jesus. Jesus is the way and the life and the truth. If he is the WAY and the LIFE then we must follow his example. And to whom did Jesus pray? To himself? No siree.

There are many things inherently wrong with the reasons many people believe their prayers aren't answered. If you spoke with God and had a real relationship, perhaps you would know why...


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reply to post by Agree2Disagree

What you are missing out on in Mark 11:24 is the keyphrase : believe that you have received it.

Actually the opposite is true, I am of a mind that this verse a simple instruction in relation to a philosophical proposition, less understood at that time.

My argument was, that when it comes to this verse and the apparent lack of any evidence of prayer working, many xtians claim that the vers should not be taken as read but in another context.

The speaker (jesus real or not) is giving simple instruction, something that he was renowned for in order for the simple mind to incorporate, yet carry a deeper more subliminal meaning.

I totally agree that the mother would find it very difficult to apply belief in hers circumstances as she is seeing the opposite of what she instructed to believe, a very vicious circle indeed.

This is where many xtians seem to back away from the verse and employ the out of context cop out for either or all-

(A) Lack of understanding of what the verse is describing

(B) Lack of faith (belief)

If you will, the speaker (jesus) is speaking directly to the mother but the mothers' focus undermines the instruction something it would seem xtians fail to get to grips with, or choose not to want believe as it could possibly invalidate many of their teachings or beliefs.


Although I'm somewhat of an atheist maybe agnostic ( I try not to label myself). This verse, of all the rubbish written by men in the bibles, appears to carry very profound message which could very well be borne out by today's physicists.

Like I said, my argument however is that many xtians claim the "omniscient" "deity" makes a statement (instruction) on Monday yet somehow delivers an addendum on Tuesday because Mondays instruction was not what it meant.

One could possibly understand clarification for understanding by the simpler mind on a separate occasion, but the initial instruction was simple enough to stand on its' own without needing much clarification.

We have to remember we're supposed to be dealing with an omniscient being here, so it's logically unacceptable to tweak the instruction and assert a context problem to suit ones own belief or lack of belief.

An alternative of course is translation, but if this very short concise instruction has a translation problem that would render it out of context the logically this implies that all translation is questionable.

This situation naturally lead to whos' translation is acceptable and by what authority.

However, as there is not testable evidence of prayer actually working, one can only conclude that either jesus lied, xtians don't actually believe he can do it or he is imaginary.

reply to post by StopComplaining

I went to a church (baptist) for the first time in my life last Sunday. The first things I saw was a drum kit and a stack of NIVs (Counterfiet Bibles, Coalated by among others a lesbian witch).

That's a new one on me, tell us about the lesbian witch please.

What's wrong with a bit of a sing song at the church dude ? did not your god invent music or is that the work of el diablo ?

Reply to post by moocowman

It's crystal clear to me that many "xtians" really have no idea what they're talking about. They have eyes yet they don't see. They have ears and yet they don't hear.

These are probably xtians that have been taught by other xtians. They haven't made their belief their own.

It is of grave importance to learn for yourself. To place your faith in YOUR belief system. When one takes anothers word for it they are placing faith in ANOTHERS belief system. It will not work that way. It simply can't.

The reason these prayers go seemingly unanswered IMHO is...
1. Lack of true faith
2. Lack of knowledge of prayer(i.e. The Lord's prayer, praying to Jesus or whomever besides the Father...)
3. Lack of relationship with the Father
4. Greedy intentions





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reply to post by Agree2Disagree

2. If you believe in Jesus Christ, then he is the example to go by. He is "the way". When looking at his life, what did he have? Not a whole lot huh? Also, he suffered. We must suffer too then

What did he have not a lot ? Is that supposed to raise a tear ?
The dude was supposed to be able to turn water into wine and feed thousands with a few fish and a loaf of bread for christs sake. What more exactly could you want in that day and age an electric can opener, time share in Crete?


And this is why this insane belief should be kept far away from the vulnerable minds such as children.