Short thread- How I faced off against JWs and basically won....

Originally posted by KOGDOG
reply to post by moocowman

 

You realize of course that Yahweh was an imaginary character that appeared in in some books authors unknown ? Perhaps one day your great great great great great great great great grandchildren will be worshiping Batman if the same evidence is required.

What do you have?

"Society/country/weird science"... is not much of a substitute for what you characterize as an "imaginary character".


Everyone has a "god"...

Take apart a fine Swiss watch. Put the pieces in a jar and shake until it all reassembles....... perfectly.

I have a splendid life and the faculty of critical thinking, which I choose not to substitute with the fear based dogma of the imaginary character yahweh.

No everyone does not have a god, only those that claim to do.


A Swiss watch started out as a sun dial, fine piece of evolution.

Actually, the ability to type into a thread is a good indicator of mental status. The ability to make arguments of any kind is a good indicator of mental status.

Someone that is truly suffering develops the strength to cope with the existence or non-existence of God -or- becomes too weak to care or bother.

Of course, I've never suffered, so I wouldn't know.

Regardless, the true motive here is for the OP's benefit. Attention increases the ego, regardless of what sort it is. Beyond that, taking a group of peaceful people head-on isn't exactly bravery. Anyone can take an opportunity to vent by choosing the modest, skinnier person; or in this case, the few meek.

God exists. Cry about your life some more. Maybe more bad things happen to you than some others... maybe not. I'm not sure I ever read in the Bible or actually anywhere that it is healthy to cry when you don't get your way. I'm pretty sure those of us who had parents who learned anything before they created us were told frequently that life isn't fair, so what?

I'm sorry life sucks for you. Yeah. Life sucks for us all. But you're still here.

I've often thought to myself, and I realize this is rather disturbingly wrong, that if I learned that everything happened by chance and there is no prevailing universally conscious force, I would simply suicide. What would be the point? In fact, what is the point of working? Money? Why? To buy stuff? Why? To enjoy for a limited period of time if you're at all lucky? And the next step? Wait... this is all quite useless.

So we spend 1/3 of our lives working, 1/3 of our lives sleeping, and the other 1/3 waking up, getting ready, eating, taking care of bills, taking care of kids, fixing other peoples' stupid mistakes regarding your bills, business, life insurance, cell phone, etc... And that is just IDEALLY.

That is if you're REALLY lucky.

So, tell me... if you really do not believe in God, why are you still alive?
There is only one logical response to becoming aware of a godless world.

Now, in a world with God, which is the only possible world ( and for all you multi-verse weirdoes, if there are infinite multi-verses with infinite possibilities, then there must also be a universe where YahWeh is the Universal Creator God who does have a Son named Jesus (in the english) who died to save us from our sins... and who are YOU to say we aren't in that universe?), it is easy to see what we are doing. We are not just a blip on the radar of life. There is meaning in relationships. There IS meaning in growth. There is a cause, an effect, a reason, and an end.

Simple logic. All suffering counts. All blessings count. All energy accounted for.

Good day to you then.

P.S. - God doesn't meddle with our free will. We make our own choices and everyone suffers the consequences of those choices. God however does interfere once the motion has begun. I.e. - you choose to dump a bottle of xanax down your throat to make life easier till you croak. Well, who's stopping you? Does God let you suffer the consequences of your actions and also everyone else around you? Maybe. Has God forseen this possibility to the very astouding degree of being able to create the universe at the very beginning, developing a process by which energy may travel so as to interfere with your ability to fell yourself by making sure you end up being given the wrong set of pills and get placebo pills on the very day you decide to do this instead? Maybe. You see, the awesome thing about God is what YOU FEAR and you are jealous of.

HE IS IN CONTROL AND YOU ARE NOT.

Welcome to it.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

I'm sorry life sucks for you. Yeah. Life sucks for us all.

Well my life doesn't suck, your xtian life can't be the way then if it sucks so much why not try being an atheist for a month see how you get on perhaps your life would improve.

I've tried atheism. The quality of life itself was not much different except it was a pointless life. I suppose as long as life is a good quality for you, it seems pointless to try to convert people to atheism except for the fun factor.

In fact, now that I think about it, being atheist means you have the freedom to pretend to be Christian and you do not... you would suffer no moral consequences. I wonder how much fun you would have playing my side? I warn you, it might take a bit of intelligence to pull it off.

Unless you have something better to do, which I assume you don't because you make it a point to let someone know that you are an atheist with a good life.

And that point seems all to convincing until you realize that you had to make a point out of it...

Unless you're here to better the lives of other people by pushing atheism because you truly believe in uniting people in a good cause so that all may flourish happily.

Which would make you a godless Christian... now that's ironic.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

So, tell me... if you really do not believe in God, why are you still alive?

Oh trust me- I am getting things together to check out. Just takes a little time. I have one thing I wanna do before I go to that great trash bin in the sky...

[edit on 7-9-2009 by wylekat]

reply to post by moocowman

I have a splendid life and the faculty of critical thinking, which I choose not to substitute with the fear based dogma of the imaginary character yahweh. No everyone does not have a god, only those that claim to do.

What is this "fear based dogma" to which you allude?

Everyone "fears" someone/something. That which we fear will determine our "beliefs". Fear the "herd/society/tribe/wolf pack" and you will acquiesce to the "pecking order" into which you were born.

Fear Yahweh and you cut yourself free from the institutions into which we are all "first born".

Who is my "mother/father/brothers/sisters"? Where is my "Kingdom"? Is it the geo political region into which I am born or where I immigrate?

All have a "god". Our "god" is who and what we "fear". Fear the "herd/tribe/etc" and that will be your "god".

Fear Yahweh and set yourself free from hating/killing/judging/harming anyone.......... NO EXCUSES!

Our goals will determine our "god". Those goals will also determine the means by which we must achieve our "goals".

reply to post by wylekat


Anything you do is pointless.

What makes you want?

reply to post by TarzanBeta

I wonder how much fun you would have playing my side?

Hey that's a good idea, why don't I try being an xtian for a month and see how I get on, if it's as good as you make out then I'd logically stick with it.

I could diarise my life here on ATS and you could be my mentor, yup good idea you had, could make for a good educational blog type thread.

So what's first then, should I start straight away or prepare myself in some way ?

reply to post by KOGDOG

Fear Yahweh and you cut yourself free from the institutions into which we are all "first born".

I'm already free of these, how is being afraid of an imaginary mountain god going to improve my life ?

this is why I made this thread- showing the dangers of religion and some of the people who wield it like a bludgeon.

I am going to ask this bluntly and honestly- Tarzan beta- who died and made you king of the bullies for God? All you're doing is showing you're a complete asshat who thinks people who are hurting are there for you to stomp on. I'd hate to see you around baby chicks or a wounded bunny.

Someone's in need and people like you start the screaming of 'God's not a genie/ vending machine/ ATM'. But it's ok when *you* have a need, isn't it? Someone's had well more than enough of being used like a toilet, and you tell us to 'quit being whiny' but let YOU be on the receiving end. Then ya whine like a opera singer with their nuts caught in a car door!

Your religion is a laughingstock the world over. And your responses to the threads just prove it more, and more and more.

Hi,

I feel for you, life can really get too much some times. The way I see it, you only get given what you can handle. Maybe I just think that to make myself feel better, but rather me than someone else right?

I have also had some pretty #ty circumstances in my life, with a crack addict for a mother and no clue where my father is or what he looks like. I've been moved around so many times from one family member to the next. My memory is so screwd, I can't tell what happened in the right order. I've been left with strangers, taken out of school at the age of 15, the crack habbit was more important than my education. I've been forced to take cocain by my mother when I was fifteen, I think she tried to get me to be the same as her so that I would go along with her lifestyle. My granny has cancer. My mom left my sister at boarding school and never picked her up again. She is now seventeen and has been sitting in a childrens home since she was 12. Her father is stinking rich and refuses to take responsibility for her. At least she is getting an education where she is. My brother has never even lived my mom, I think I've seen him a total of four months out of my whole life. He was brought up by my mothers aunt since he was born. He grew up in poverty while my mother lived the high life, until she got introduced to crack and all went down hill.
Sold all our furniture, gave up our nice house and left. She left me in an empty apartment in Cape town all on my own and left with her boyfriend. From there it's a horror story I don't want to get into.

I now have no education, and have to rely on my artistic skills to make a living. I apprenticed at a really great Jeweller and then went off on my own. At 21 I have been working for six years already. My mother calls like once every 4 months, and the rest of the time I worry myself sick about where she is and what she does to support herself and her habbit.

Lucky for me I have a wonderfull boyfriend of 5 years who helps me where he can. Without him, I don't even want to think where I would be or what type of person I would be.

I suppose someone up there decided to cut me some slack. My life isn't easy at all. I am not where I wanted to be, but I am gratefull for what I have. My dreams of being an astronaut or microbiologist is out the window for sure, but I still am better off than some other people.

My point is, you only get given what you can handle, so handle it.Or try at least. No matter how tough. There is always someone who has it worse off than you.

And always remember to help others even when you realy can't afford to. It helps you get through the day. Small things make the biggest difference.


[edit on 06/10/2009 by jinx880101]

reply to post by jinx880101


Sorry. I'm beyond what I can handle. No family, no relatives, no g/f, no wife, no kids, NO ONE. And what really sucks no end is the fact every and all attempts to have a family, and a g/f or wife are destroyed.

This is not a shot at you at all, but it really galls me how no matter how bolluxed up others lives are, they ALWAYS have family or a someone to be with. Me... I get complete nothing, no one to hold on to, no shoulder to cry on, no one to hug, nada. I'm pretty much prepared to die alone.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by KOGDOG

 

Fear Yahweh and you cut yourself free from the institutions into which we are all "first born".

I'm already free of these, how is being afraid of an imaginary mountain god going to improve my life ?

Well.... this is ATS. I could go into the ultra weirdness that is the foundation of all that OT/NT shiznizz.... but... I'm not going there.

Let's just say that I have seen just enough to convince me that something else is going on here on Planet Weasel that is best defined and explained in the OT/NT.

On the Logical/PC/Intellectual/WeirdScience side of the coin.... The Man Yahshua gave us a way out of the "New World Order" that I guess we could hack out and argue on our own. But... It is sooooo much easier to just say... "DA' BIBLE SEZ THIS OR THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!" and when you live in a God&Country Nation it kinda' works...... sort of. :-)

However.... the really freaky OT/NT stuff is why I would suggest that all should take another look at Yahshua. Just a suggestion... not a commandment.

It's your life... :-)

PS to all you whiners cursing Yahweh.... I could tell you my life but won't cuz I don't want to have to change your diapers.

Oh.... Mancow.... you never said what your "goals" were and what those "goals" demanded that you do to achieve your "goals".

Originally posted by wylekat
great. I've been punished.

thats the thing... you havent.

this isnt about punishment or blessing.

the people who say "god is in control" arent very encouraging because they dont fully understand what that means. so here are some scriptures that hopefully will shed some light on your situation.

2 cor 4:[3] But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

this scripture shows us that satan is currently the "god of this world". consider too that satan was able to offer jesus all the kingdoms of the world for worship. this means satan is calling the shots on earth and alot of the bad things in your life are his fault (sometime bad comes from our own bad decisions)

does this mean that god is not in control? no. satan has the world because he is allowed to, not because he was able to somehow take it away. why would god do this? because certain issues were raised. if you look in job, satan brings certain allegations before god regarding not just job, but all man.

what does living in satan's world mean for us? well for one, it means a separation from god. this includes a lack of divine protection. to put it simply, bad stuff happens...

eccl 9:[11] I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

in other words, others at church are not richer than you because they are holier than you, nor are they necessarily better people. some people just have better circumstances. sometimes they work hard for their money. sometimes they dont.

but sometime people are rich from dishonest gain. now ask yourself, is a person who lies and cheats his way to the top really getting god's blessing?

asaph felt very similiar to you.

psalm 73:
[1] Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.
[2] But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.
[3] For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
[4] For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.
[5] They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.
[6] Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
[7] Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish.
[8] They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily.
[9] They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.
[10] Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them.
[11] And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High?
[12] Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
[13] Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
[14] For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
[15] If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
[16] When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
[17] Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
[18] Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
[19] How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
[20] As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
[21] Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins.
[22] So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.
[23] Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
[24] Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
[25] Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
[26] My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.
[27] For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
[28] But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

Originally posted by wylekat
Tell ya what. I'll come by, take your entire family from you, take every cent you have, and toss you out in the middle of nowhere (and when I say nowhere, I MEAN nowhere) with nothing but a burlap sack to wear, and no hope for anything ever being the same again- and see how long you spout that religious gibberish. I guarantee it wont be more than 48 hours before you're just how I am.

dont lecture me about suffering.

you want to spend the rest of your life living as a bitter shell of a person, go right ahead. but remember that there are things more important than you.

reply to post by wylekat


I am certainly not out to get you, first of all. Secondly, you attacked God. Therefore, my defense thereof is not bullying.

If you aren't intelligent enough to figure out an answer to a simple question like, "What makes you want?" and instead must attack, then you simply prove that you don't know suffering.

Check this out, bright one. True suffering is an offering, not something that just happens to you.

Okay, bad things happened to ya. Woopie. You know what sets good people apart from bad? The good people are the one who throw themselves in harms way for the bad people simply because it's right.

Bad things happen to EVERYONE. Good things usually happen to bad people. Good things sometimes happen for the good people who help the bad people. Those good things usually turn out to be bad things because they involve vanity or pride.

So, you're on the ground rolled up into a ball... And you feel sorry for YOU? What about the person who is sticking up for what is right while you're covering your face? Can't take a hit?

Grow up. Death is inevitable and religion has never EVER promised that it would overcome death, or more specifically the first death. In fact, religion only PROMISES it. Whatever delusions you have about avoiding death are yours alone (shared by most of the world of course.)

Originally posted by mental modulator
So you are saying to me god planned to have ALL my living parents get sick at the same time. IT was gods plan to inspire me to play guitar and practice 25 hours a week for 9 years, only to have my window of opportunity shut during exactly when I needed to make a move. Sounds to me like you are saying god is sadistic and enjoys misery? I myself could not have planned a more evil plot or imagined such a vile story. Yet here YOU are chocking it up to some plan for me and wylekat, that this putrid and systematic destruction of a persons life is intentional.

never said anything of the sort.

what i did say is that god is permitting injustice for a period of time and that praying to him isnt going to make your problems go away

The man is right, it is easy to spread rainbows and sunshine when the worst you have seen is the sniffles.

and you know this from....?

You assert that he put effort into the entire thing, plotted EVERYTHING down to the day and struck relentlessly attack after attack with precision. You are saying god is a vengeful assassin, who enjoys inflicting scars, but does not have the courtesy to AIM AT THE HEART.

seriously, i think you mixed up my post with someone elses. i didnt say nor assert any of that

Originally posted by moocowman
There is nothing worse than a freaking patronizing xtian waving their magic finger at at a dude who been down.

this is not a "dear abbey" forum. its a conspiracy in religion forum.

the OP seems to be suggesting that the bible and christianity in general is BS because god (the celestial ATM) doesnt answer his prayers.

lets get something straight, im not "patronizing" him. im trying to share what i know of the bible and to share my views of the subject and to hopefully show him that there are different ways of looking at things.

frankly im receiving hell for it.

Let me make something utterly clear, and no, this isn't a 'oh pity me' post- this is bare fact:

I've been abused since I came into this world. My mother started this by screaming how I was going ot 'hell' because I didn't bow under the abuse she heaped on me. Not discipline. ABUSE. To the point I had a Child Services worker following me around... I didn't know about that til I was 18. Every church I went to has been run the same way, Bright happy people until you had a need- then, those bright happy people turned on you like sharks on bloody meat. I have stories that'd turn ALL your hair white. It's all I have ever seen, with very, very few exceptions. I have had run ins with Christian women that would make prostitutes and strippers look like decent people. Time and again, these people would prosper, while I would struggle my backside off, and fail over and over. My last boss took great pride in the fact he could 'pray' me from going to fla and getting the job I always wanted. HE was a Christian. I've had what I can only call supernatural things happen I have been at such a loss to explain, it'd be funny if it wasn't true. After a few years of nonstop nonsense of that flavor- I got pretty tired of praying to God, since nothing was even denting it. Heck, it still happens.

As for forces beyond my control... I am fully capable of finding an answer to ANYTHING. If something's beyond my abilities (for example, some plumbing. I was sure if I started to tinker with it, I'd have caused a flood)- I say so. I have the ability to do almost anything, right up to and including fly an airplane, ride a horse, fix nearly anything, and find a answer to a problem in a nearly Sherlock Holmes style. So- when I say things have been twisted well out of my control, THEY HAVE BEEN TWISTED WELL OUT OF MY CONTROL. I cant explain what happens. I SEE it happen for various and certain things- and there's no remedy, no explanation, no way to come up with an answer. I am also a person that when a certain thing doesn't work, I quit doing it. When Christianity became a nightmare, I said 'no more'. I have darn good reasons for every last argument I make, because most of them, I have been thru and had my skin flayed off the first round. Maybe I had too many promises of God making my life better, and I believed them. Thing is- I was shown those 'magic' bible verses- 'ask and you shall receive', and 'life more abundantly'- and if ANYONE should be wallowing in abundance, It should be me- just on pure virtue of the talent and drive I possessed!

I got snowed under by church people who not only had just money and family, and could simply march right over me. Add in the inexplicable, unbelievable, and completely twilight zone-ish way these people destroyed me... ex: I liked this one girl. One night, she handed me a note, and walked away. The note read "The pastor told me that God told him that I shouldn't be dating you any more". 6 months later, she marries some rich guy. Turns out the pastor DID tell her that. I'm still single- and crap like this is played on me on a regular basis!

Now- NO amount of prayer, reading, or anything else has done anything but make my life worse. Like I said- if it don't work, I don't mess with it any more- keeps me sane. If God cant treat me normally, what am I going to offer God? My middle finger. I call it abuse, and by all rights, I am right. Asking for protection from Satan does nothing. Pleading got me nothing. Trying to find a logical, normal explanation for ANY of what I have been thru- HA. I can explain cartoon physics better. I'm simply not going to be abused, and then have some people in button up shirts, and a tie, and holding an old book that has seen more revisions than a bad play written by a blind person tell me how wrong I am, when what I have seen has defied any and all the explanations and rhetoric I have been handed over the course of my life. Here's the simple version: When I was working at the animal shelter- and I was told 'this dog bites'- I always took precautions to make sure I was not bitten. When I was told, 'this dog doesn't bite', and it did- I DOUBLED my caution towards the animal. Especially the real interesting cases where the animal was sweet and kind to others, but wanted me with a side salad. God's right in that category. Good and kind to the ones he wants to be, and vicious and mean to people he just simply doesn't like. He even says it in the new testament- I'll be good to the ones I want to, and harden the ones I want hardened'. Personally, it shows the earlier scripture of ' I am no respecter of anyone' a complete and total lie. No one can treat everyone equally but treat some a little less or a little more equally. It's a tad interesting how even Jesus had the same mindset with that one woman, calling her a dog and accusing her of taking what was meant for 'the elect'. The whole excuse of saying she had faith doesn't wash with me.

I'd be a complete atheist if it weren't for the crap that defied known natural laws... I really would. I never heard of Buddha, or Allah stirring the pot in this fashion, so we're down to God and his partner in crime, Satan, who was 'allowed' to have the entire planet. Not bad for someone condemned for starting an uprising, huh? Thrown out of Heaven, my butt! That's like having a kid who broke a window, and punishing him with an ice cream cone and toys!

So you talked to some JWs and walked away not a JW. So how did and what did you "basically win" and would you like a medal or something?